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CK3 Dev Diary #33 - An Offer You Can’t Refuse

Hello everyone and welcome to the 33rd CK3 Dev Diary!

I’m Matthew, one of the Programmers on the CK3 team, and today I am going to talk to you about the overhaul we’ve done to Feudal Contracts since Dev Diary 17.

A quick refresher on what Contracts are: every vassal above baron tier has an individual contract between them and their liege which affects how much the vassal gives to the liege in terms of tax and levies in exchange for the liege’s protection. In the case of Feudal vassals, this contract can be renegotiated.

We were not fully content with the initial implementation of this setup as it did not help facilitate the drama and storytelling of the deals made between a vassal and their liege and the disagreements that could arise from that. This was a view shared among the community as well which reinforced our desire to give this feature another look, so a couple of our designers and I gave it an overhaul.

The Contract
You may have seen screenshots or videos of this system in some of the media released from our press events but I’m gonna take you through the new system step by step, so without further ado here is the new interface you’ll see when you interact with a vassal’s feudal contract.

ContractView.png

[Feudal contract negotiation screen]

As you can see there are a lot more options now to tailor the contract.

Going from top to bottom you can see that we have split the base tax and levy obligations into two separate tracks each now with five options. These are the core base of how much taxes and levies are given to the liege, the lower they are the more your vassal will like you, of course, and the higher they are the less content they will be.
When negotiating a new deal you can only move to adjacent levels of the tax and levy obligations.

Below that we have what we call the “Fine Print” options. These fine options are unlocked via various innovations and provide various modifications to the contract.
The first row being the Special Contract options of Scutage, March, and Palatinate which are available for vassals that are Dukes or Kings.

Scutage.png

[Effects of scutage]

March.png

[Effects of march]

Palatinate.png

[Effects of palatinate]

At the bottom we have the rest of the Fine Print options available, these are things like guaranteeing your vassal a spot on the council or granting them coinage rights. Some options are only shown if the vassal meets specific conditions, for example if the vassal is of a different faith to the liege. In such a case the “Religious Protection” gives them special rights to practice their faith without risk of the liege demanding their conversion or converting the faith of their provinces.

The Negotiation
When negotiating the contract a max of three changes may be made. We experimented with different values and this felt like it wasn’t too limiting whilst also letting you too wildly change your contract in one go.

With the new obligations that can be changed and enacted this allows you to negotiate a more interesting deal. For example, you as the liege may want to increase the amount of taxes your vassal gives you, but just doing that alone will be viewed as unfair by the vassal and increase your tyranny.

NegotiationTyranny.png

[a contract proposal giving tyranny]

So if you don’t want to take that tyranny hit then you need to look at what changes you can propose that the vassal will want, so in exchange for these increased taxes you could guarantee your vassal a spot on the council meaning you can now enact this deal without being viewed as a tyrant.

NegotiationFair.png

[a contract proposal with a fair trade]

Alternatively, if you have a hook on your vassal then you can use that hook to count as one free change in favour of the vassal, so you can use your hook and get those higher taxes without having to give any other concessions and not be viewed as a tyrant. Blackmailing people is surprisingly effective.

NegotiationHook.png

[a contract proposal using a hook to avoid tyranny]

It is worth mentioning that even if you propose a “fair” trade that does not give you tyranny this does not mean that the vassal will be perfectly content. There is an opinion change tied to each obligation and what status it is in, vassals will tend to dislike paying more and like paying less, and this opinion modifier will be present in the vassal’s view of their liege.

The vassal themselves can of course also negotiate the contract, they have the added restriction that they must offer their liege an even trade. So they cannot ask to pay lower taxes without using either a hook or agreeing to give the liege something they would want, be that giving more levies, agreeing to stay with only partition succession, or giving up a benefit they have previously been given such as that guaranteed council spot.

Some vassals start with contracts different to the default, in the Holy Roman Empire all vassals start with low taxes and levies to represent the internal state and the lower amount of control the Emperor was exerting over their vassals at the time.

We really wanted the interface to make this feel like an actual paper contract being signed between the liege and the vassal, thankfully we had this beautiful parchment background and wax seal shader lying around that helped spice it up.

Modding Contracts
All of these different obligations, their effects, how the AI uses them, and how they are shown in the UI is controlled in the script files so you can mod in or change existing obligations to your heart’s content.

Code:
religious_rights = {
    display_mode = checkbox

    is_shown = {

        NOT = {

            scope:vassal.faith = scope:liege.faith

        }

    }

    obligation_levels = {

        religious_rights_none = {

            default = yes

            

            ai_liege_desire = @ai_standard_liege_desire

            ai_vassal_desire = 0

        }

        religious_rights_protected = {

            is_valid = {

                NOT = {

                    scope:vassal.faith = scope:liege.faith

                }

            }

            parent = religious_rights_none

            

            vassal_opinion = 5

            

            vassal_modifier = {

                county_opinion_add = 5

            }

            

            flag = religiously_protected

            

            ai_liege_desire = 0

            ai_vassal_desire = 10

        }

    }
}
Here we have the script database entry for the religious protection obligation type, it demonstrates the various options and should be fairly self explanatory in its naming of the options.

I hope you’ve all enjoyed this dev diary and are excited for the new Feudal Contracts and the more options and interactions they can provide between vassals and lieges!

We look forward to seeing you next week, in the meanwhile if you want to chat more then I highly recommend joining our CK Discord Server as well!

Pets of the Dev Team
On the Crusader Kings 3 team we are of course very big fans of animals and pets of all kinds. So I thought to cap off this dev diary, and give you all some much needed cuteness overload during these difficult times in the world, I'd collect a bunch of pictures of all our wonderful pets, fluffy or otherwise!

Pet17.JPG

Pet1.png
Pet2.png
Pet3.png
Pet4.png
Pet5.png
Pet6.png
Pet7.png
Pet8.png
Pet9.png
Pet10.png
Pet11.png
Pet12.png
Pet13.png
Pet14.png
Pet15.png

Pet16.JPG
 
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I'm also curious about a guaranteed council seat, for female vassals in particular. Will they always displace the spymaster or will other council seats also be made available? Also, do titles change if you become a march/palatinate?

Anyway, I absolutely love what this is going to do for vassal play. In CK2 you could play as a vassal indefinitely, it gave you a different position and different interactions with fellow vassals than you would have as a liege and for that it was fine. But they only way to really be 'the power behind the throne' in any meaningful sense was to expand internally or externally until you could reliably challenge your liege (if you had to). And that always felt a little contrived because at that stage, if you wanted to be a power, why bow at all?

But this to me is the perfect kind of addition. It recognizes or responds to an RP-opportunity and furbishes tangible gameplay mechanics for it. Now you actually can play a family that has shaped a kingdom to benefit it first and foremost without having to accept any of the responsibilities or duties of running a kingdom/empire. You also have an organic reason to help your liege cuz if anyone breaks your toy you lose your hard won cushy position.
 
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I'm disappointed the devs chose to keep them character based because it's easier, rather than doing the right thing and making it title based…
 
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I'm also curious about a guaranteed council seat, for female vassals in particular. Will they always displace the spymaster or will other council seats also be made available? Also, do titles change if you become a march/palatinate?

Anyway, I absolutely love what this is going to do for vassal play. In CK2 you could play as a vassal indefinitely, it gave you a different position and different interactions with fellow vassals than you would have as a liege and for that it was fine. But they only way to really be 'the power behind the throne' in any meaningful sense was to expand internally or externally until you could reliably challenge your liege (if you had to). And that always felt a little contrived because at that stage, if you wanted to be a power, why bow at all?

But this to me is the perfect kind of addition. It recognizes or responds to an RP-opportunity and furbishes tangible gameplay mechanics for it. Now you actually can play a family that has shaped a kingdom to benefit it first and foremost without having to accept any of the responsibilities or duties of running a kingdom/empire. You also have an organic reason to help your liege cuz if anyone breaks your toy you lose your hard won cushy position.
Agreed. Also, now that not everything is ultimately tied to Crown Authority anymore, we shouldn't have the endless vassal revolts to lower Crown Authority that tended to make playing as anything higher than Duke somewhat tiresome.
 

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I'm disappointed the devs chose to keep them character based because it's easier, rather than doing the right thing and making it title based…
Having a title-based system would both cause issues (under which contract do vassals of vassals fall) and be annoying to micromanage (as an emperor you won't want to have to deal with 2-5 different contacts for each of your 30-40 vassals, while one contract each would be more doable), so I can totally see why they have the character based system.
 
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What happens if a vassal loses a title and moves down a tier? Will they keep their vassal contract as it was, revert to a pre-existing one (are the contracts saved per title like that? Seems unlikely), or revert to a default contract? If the first, what happens if the vassal has a special contract type (such as Marcher) that cannot be given to counts?
 

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Having a title-based system would both cause issues (under which contract do vassals of vassals fall) and be annoying to micromanage (as an emperor you won't want to have to deal with 2-5 different contacts for each of your 30-40 vassals, while one contract each would be more doable), so I can totally see why they have the character based system.

You are assuming that the devs will fuck up the implementation. "Causing issues" and "annoying to micromanage" are problems that can be solved. Yes, going from the current UX implementation to title based would be annoying AF, but it's not the be all and end all. Do you have no faith in the devs?

I'm disappointed because mods will likely not be able to fix this issue due to hardcoding…
 
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You are assuming that the devs will fuck up the implementation. "Causing issues" and "annoying to micromanage" are problems that can be solved. Yes, going from the current UX implementation to title based would be annoying AF, but it's not the be all and end all. Do you have no faith in the devs?

I'm disappointed because mods will likely not be able to fix this issue due to hardcoding…

title based contracts would either be annoying to micromanage or extremely bland. I just don't see how you can make a system where having to have hundreds of contracts (which any reasonably sized empire would have) is not annoying to micromanage in some way or another.
 
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Do you have no faith in the devs?

Given that one of the devs -- a dev that likely is one of the most knowledgeable people regarding the underlying code of CK3 (by virtue of being a CK3 programmer) and that is one of the most likely candidates for being tasked with implementing this if it happened (again by virtue of being a CK3 programmer), by the way -- has described it as "months upon months upon months" of work and the end result as "most likely [...] incredibly impractical", I have little faith in the devs being able to implement it with ease or in a way that makes the end result practical.
 
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I think I like this change. But I do have some questions; mainly, will there be only one "Liege / Vassal" contract between the liege and each vassal, or one for each title?

Using the feudal contract example pictured above, I'll explain the main reason I'm asking. Let's say we're playing as the King of England, and you have two vassals with very different contracts:

Duchess of Warwick, set as a Low Tax, High Levy, March.
Duke of York, High Tax, Low Levy, Scuttage

Let's say these two Duke-level vassals get married and produce a single son. And when this son turns of age, some tragic accident takes both his parents at the same time.

Now you have a new "Double" Duke; the Duke of York and Warwick. Question is, what feudal contract does he use? His mothers, his fathers? A mix of both? Does it reset to a "standard" contract. How will title tier play in: what if it were a Countess of Warwick and a Duke of York? How will De Jure play into this: a Countess of Hull and a Duke of York?

Or, will there be a contract for each title? And if there is a contract for each title, does that also go for De Jure titles? If I were playing the King of England, and I give out the Duchy of Cornwall; do I get to set a contract for the Duchy of Cornwall, the County of Cornwall, and the County of Devon? Even if I don't get to set a contract for the De Jure titles under the Duchy of Cornwall because the DEV's decide that De Jure is grouped and follows the lead title, what about if I gave this new Duke of Cornwall the county of Dorset; NOT part of the Duchy of Cornwall?

What's the balance? It would be very interesting, and incredibly dynamic if we could set a contract for each title. But I could also see how that could end up bogging the player down if we had to set up a contract for each and every title; most especially in large realms, notably the Byzantine Empire and the HRE.

Speaking of the Byzantines, what about Viceroys, are they sticking around? If so, then even more dynamic contract possibilities!

SO I guess to sum it all up: is it ONE VASSAL / ONE CONTRACT or is it ONE TITLE / ONE CONTRACT???
 
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I think I like this change. But I do have some questions; mainly, will there be only one "Liege / Vassal" contract between the liege and each vassal, or one for each title?

Using the feudal contract example pictured above, I'll explain the main reason I'm asking. Let's say we're playing as the King of England, and you have two vassals with very different contracts:

Duchess of Warwick, set as a Low Tax, High Levy, March.
Duke of York, High Tax, Low Levy, Scuttage

Let's say these two Duke-level vassals get married and produce a single son. And when this son turns of age, some tragic accident takes both his parents at the same time.

Now you have a new "Double" Duke; the Duke of York and Warwick. Question is, what feudal contract does he use? His mothers, his fathers? A mix of both? Does it reset to a "standard" contract. How will title tier play in: what if it were a Countess of Warwick and a Duke of York? How will De Jure play into this: a Countess of Hull and a Duke of York?

Or, will there be a contract for each title? And if there is a contract for each title, does that also go for De Jure titles? If I were playing the King of England, and I give out the Duchy of Cornwall; do I get to set a contract for the Duchy of Cornwall, the County of Cornwall, and the County of Devon? Even if I don't get to set a contract for the De Jure titles under the Duchy of Cornwall because the DEV's decide that De Jure is grouped and follows the lead title, what about if I gave this new Duke of Cornwall the county of Dorset; NOT part of the Duchy of Cornwall?

What's the balance? It would be very interesting, and incredibly dynamic if we could set a contract for each title. But I could also see how that could end up bogging the player down if we had to set up a contract for each and every title; most especially in large realms, notably the Byzantine Empire and the HRE.

Speaking of the Byzantines, what about Viceroys, are they sticking around? If so, then even more dynamic contract possibilities!

SO I guess to sum it all up: is it ONE VASSAL / ONE CONTRACT or is it ONE TITLE / ONE CONTRACT???
I can answer some of your questions with what has already been discussed in this thread and others before it - feudal contracts are per character, not per title, between liege and direct vassals, and Viceroys aren't in the game at launch.
 
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I think I like this change. But I do have some questions; mainly, will there be only one "Liege / Vassal" contract between the liege and each vassal, or one for each title?

Using the feudal contract example pictured above, I'll explain the main reason I'm asking. Let's say we're playing as the King of England, and you have two vassals with very different contracts:

Duchess of Warwick, set as a Low Tax, High Levy, March.
Duke of York, High Tax, Low Levy, Scuttage

Let's say these two Duke-level vassals get married and produce a single son. And when this son turns of age, some tragic accident takes both his parents at the same time.

Now you have a new "Double" Duke; the Duke of York and Warwick. Question is, what feudal contract does he use? His mothers, his fathers? A mix of both? Does it reset to a "standard" contract. How will title tier play in: what if it were a Countess of Warwick and a Duke of York? How will De Jure play into this: a Countess of Hull and a Duke of York?

Or, will there be a contract for each title? And if there is a contract for each title, does that also go for De Jure titles? If I were playing the King of England, and I give out the Duchy of Cornwall; do I get to set a contract for the Duchy of Cornwall, the County of Cornwall, and the County of Devon? Even if I don't get to set a contract for the De Jure titles under the Duchy of Cornwall because the DEV's decide that De Jure is grouped and follows the lead title, what about if I gave this new Duke of Cornwall the county of Dorset; NOT part of the Duchy of Cornwall?

What's the balance? It would be very interesting, and incredibly dynamic if we could set a contract for each title. But I could also see how that could end up bogging the player down if we had to set up a contract for each and every title; most especially in large realms, notably the Byzantine Empire and the HRE.

Speaking of the Byzantines, what about Viceroys, are they sticking around? If so, then even more dynamic contract possibilities!

SO I guess to sum it all up: is it ONE VASSAL / ONE CONTRACT or is it ONE TITLE / ONE CONTRACT???

It is One Vassal / One contract. With the primary title deciding the contract for someone inheriting a new title.

I'll quote the discussion just above you which was about why this is a decent solution:

(Original post)
I'm disappointed the devs chose to keep them character based because it's easier, rather than doing the right thing and making it title based…
(Reply to Tsadiq)
Having a title-based system would both cause issues (under which contract do vassals of vassals fall) and be annoying to micromanage (as an emperor you won't want to have to deal with 2-5 different contacts for each of your 30-40 vassals, while one contract each would be more doable), so I can totally see why they have the character based system.
(Reply to me)
You are assuming that the devs will fuck up the implementation. "Causing issues" and "annoying to micromanage" are problems that can be solved. Yes, going from the current UX implementation to title based would be annoying AF, but it's not the be all and end all. Do you have no faith in the devs?

I'm disappointed because mods will likely not be able to fix this issue due to hardcoding…
(Reply to Tsadiq)
title based contracts would either be annoying to micromanage or extremely bland. I just don't see how you can make a system where having to have hundreds of contracts (which any reasonably sized empire would have) is not annoying to micromanage in some way or another.
(Reply to Tsadiq)
Given that one of the devs -- a dev that likely is one of the most knowledgeable people regarding the underlying code of CK3 (by virtue of being a CK3 programmer) and that is one of the most likely candidates for being tasked with implementing this if it happened (again by virtue of being a CK3 programmer), by the way -- has described it as "months upon months upon months" of work and the end result as "most likely [...] incredibly impractical", I have little faith in the devs being able to implement it with ease or in a way that makes the end result practical.
 

Sebastian Jarl

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I echo the sentiments that it would have been preferable to have the contract be per title rather than per individual. The latter seems much more suited to quasi-feudal states like Norway than to the legalistic feudalism that developed in mainland Europe and Britain. Alas, if the technical limitations won't allow it there's unfortunately not much to say about it. (Although the stated opinion that it is a fringe phenomenon doesn't exactly ring true - the issue of multiple lieges exists within realms as much as between them.)

What can perhaps be changed though is the notion of guaranteed council positions. Is there any historical precedent for this? Offices of state (including great offices) have certainly been made hereditary, but all the examples I can think of relates to the particular offices being hereditary - not an entitlement to receive any office the vassal choses.
 
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MatthewP

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This sounds like a very cool system. I do see 2 things that seem to be missing, at least based on what’s been described so far.

1) there needs to be a way to change the default contract. If all of my current vassals are paying high taxes and have been for 50 years it makes little sense that a new vassal would start off paying low taxes. It would also be a tool for reducing micromanagement.

2) imagine you spend a century manipulating a powerful vassal’s contract (obviously through several successors) and finally get it where you want it. Now the vassal dies without an heir and the title reverts to you. This should be a good thing, but actually it’s undone a century of work because whoever you give it to starts over with the default contract. I get that it’s a contract between characters, but this seems both counterintuitive and incredibly frustrating. Of course you might also lose a century of work because somebody else on a higher tier inherits the title, but that at least makes sense and is something you’d need to watch out for as a “real life” lord.
 
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Ed Mike

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I really hope the Special Contracts on the fine print affect the naming of the titles.
Having a marquess/margrave/marquis/marquês or marchioness/margravine/marquise/marquesa rule the provinces on the outskirts of the realm would be very interesting.

Originally, the title of marquess was given to those vassals who ruled over lands bordering enemies. The title used to come with a more direct access to the king than most nobles had, because they ruled over lands that would need faster action to protect the kingdom and the fact that they would pay less taxes and offer more soldiers to the king are a very good way to represent a more militaristic dominion with royal privileges.

But I REALLY hope the title comes with the contract.
Not just because of that but also because I like the sound of that title. lol
 
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Th
I really hope the Special Contracts on the fine print affect the naming of the titles.
Having a marquess/margrave/marquis/marquês or marchioness/margravine/marquise/marquesa rule the provinces on the outskirts of the realm would be very interesting.

Originally, the title of marquess was given to those vassals who ruled over lands bordering enemies. The title used to come with a more direct access to the king than most nobles had, because they ruled over lands that would need faster action to protect the kingdom and the fact that they would pay less taxes and offer more soldiers to the king are a very good way to represent a more militaristic dominion with royal privileges.

But I REALLY hope the title comes with the contract.
Not just because of that but also because I like the sound of that title. lol
There is literally an option to create a march (ruled by the said titles) right there in the screenshot, so I think you don't have to worry on that front, although I do hope the terminology is used, too.
 

pengoyo

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Aquitaine was never handed out to anyone as a hereditary title. John of Gaunt's role in Aquitaine is closer to being a viceroy than an ordinary lord in CK terms. Incidentally, John of Gaunt was also Duke of Lancaster. The King of England was his liege for the lands he held in England.

Aquitaine was still a vassal of France. It behaves more like an independent realm because it was in the process of revolting against its liege. Trying to change its de jure status was a major English goal.

Edward III was never in any serious sense granted a duchy by his father. The whole thing was a show to arrive at some acceptable compromise about homage.

It would still mean the title would need two lieges even if you are handing it out as a viceroyalty instead of a duchy.

John of Guant ruled Aquitane from England for a lot of his time as duke of Aquitane. He also negotiated peace with France on behalf of England. I wouldn't characterize it as being independent of England. It was a de jure vassal of France, but a de facto part of England.



Also the thing to remember, if moving to a each title having its own lieges system, whatever works for the duchy of Aquitane needs to work generally. So for instance, counties the king of England might individually get from France, these were also kept in the king's name, but holding lots of title directly is bad for game balance. Also since a title's liege is being used to keep track of de jure lieges, then we need to consider what happens within a realm. So a duke in the dual kingom of Leon and Castile who has a duchy that's part of the kingdom of Castile that wants to hand out counties that are a part of the kingdom of Leon would also running into this same problem (or the king of Bohemia who has gained a German duchy or even an English duke that gains an English county that is a part of another English duchy).



IMHO the way CK2 represents the de jure vs de facto vassalage in France/England works pretty well (with maybe the exception of de jure drift being attached to just time and some awkwardness around crown laws). Essentially England gets the benifit of ruling some French lands, but France can try to contest that rule.

Now Flanders might be better represented by multiple lieges, as it seems they were both de jure and de facto a part of two realms (this is my understanding based on what I've read in this forum as I don't know about medieval Flanders). But even this IMHO doesn't seem like it's worth the headache that each title having its own liege would be for Paradox (and maybe also the player depending on how exactly it's implemented).