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CK3 Dev Diary #3 - War

Greetings!

War. What is it good for? You may ask. A whole lot I’d say. You can use it to press that juicy Claim you have been holding on to for a while, or perhaps you’d rather use it to put the unbelievers to the sword. Whichever strikes your fancy. The topic of the day is war, and more specifically, how we go about waging war.

I aim to give you an overview of how wars will be fought. I will not go into details about CBs or anything like that this time. Bear in mind that the game is still very much in development and everything talked about here is subject to change.

Let’s start by taking a look at what an army is made up of. Just like in Crusader Kings 2, the bulk of your armies consists of Levies. Levies in Crusader Kings 3 are made up of their own unit type, simply called Levy. These are essentially conscripted peasants forced to do your bidding and are not very impressive on their own. In great numbers, however, they are an efficient meat shield meant to complement the troops of your armies that have a far higher impact: Men-at-Arms.

dd_03_armynumbers.png


Men-at-Arms are the equivalent to the Retinues of CK2. They are trained troops that come in several different unit types which excel in their given role. There are base variations available for everyone to recruit, such as Light Cavalry and Heavy Infantry, but the really interesting ones are usually unique to certain cultures or specific regions of the map, though all have their own stats and uses. Speaking of stats, there are four different values present on a Men-at-Arms regiment that you need to keep track off:

Damage - This is obviously the amount of damage a single soldier of this type is able to inflict on the opponent.

Toughness - This is how much damage a soldier can take.

Pursuit - In the aftermath of a battle (more on this below), Pursuit increases the amount of damage you can inflict upon a routing enemy.

Screen - The opposite of Pursuit, Screen allows you to protect fleeing soldiers from being killed.

dd_03_pikemen.png


Not all Men-at-Arms are equal. You will have access to a few immediately from the start and unlock access to additional regiment types as you progress throughout the game. Some will be similar to each other, but may be tailored towards a certain terrain type. Others may just be a straight upgrade, but will in those cases be much more expensive than their weaker counterpart.

Men-at-Arms allow you to customize your army for any given situation. If you know where or who you will fight, certain Men-at-Arms will be far superior. Is there a lot of hilly terrain in your region? Then Archers are the way to go. Are you facing a lot of cavalry? Bring Pikemen! A smaller army will stand a much higher chance of winning if you bring a Men-at-Arm type that counters those of the enemy. When a regiment is countered, it’s efficiency in battle will be lowered, with its Damage output significantly reduced. If the countered regiment is greatly outnumbered by the countering type, efficiency will reduce even further. There’s a limit to how much a Men-at-Arm’s Damage can be reduced though, as to not make your expensive troops completely useless.

Next we have a special kind of Men-at-Arms: Siege Weapons. Medieval warfare was all about sieges. Castles and sieges are very iconic for the time frame, so we felt that it was necessary to have that properly represented. You’ll start off with access to a rather weak catapult, but it will still allow you to besiege holdings faster than without one. Later on, you’ll unlock improved siege weapons, such as trebuchets, that are able to speed up sieges significantly.

dd_03_siegeweapons.png


You can only own a certain number of Men-at-Arms regiments at any given time, so choose carefully which troops you decide to recruit!

Levies and Men-at-Arms are not the only soldiers available to you. As a ruler, you have a number of Knights at your disposal. These are the vassals and courtiers of your realm with a high Prowess, which is the equivalent to Combat Rating in CK2, and represents how good a character is at fighting and is used when they participate in battles. You can normally only have a few dedicated Knights, but there are various ways to increase the number of Knights, as well as their effectiveness.

dd_03_knight.png


Finally, we have the Commander. An army can only have a single Commander, who uses his Martial skill to improve the troops under his command. There are plenty of different commander traits available, which either have a direct effect on battles, such as terrain bonuses, or give the Commander bonuses outside of battles. One such example is the ability to have supply last longer (more on this below).

dd_03_commanders.png


dd_03_holywarrior.png


With armies out of the way, let’s have a look at battles! At the very start of any battle, a combat width is set that decides how many troops are able to fight each other at the same time. The width is set to the relative size of the defender, depending on the terrain type you are fighting in, being larger in flat and open terrain, and smaller in rough terrain and mountains. I would generally advise against attacking larger armies in plains for example...

The single most important part of a battle is Advantage, which is essentially a modifier that increases the damage of all troops on either side. When a battle starts, all sources of Advantage is taken into consideration. It can come from traits, terrain, buildings, etc. but most importantly, the Martial skill of your Commander. All of these are added together for both sides of the battle. The difference is then added as the Advantage bonus for the side with the higher Advantage.

Example: Your army has a total Advantage of 40, and attacks an enemy army that has a lousy total of 10. This means that you will have an Advantage bonus of 30 during the battle, which then translates into a rather significant damage bonus for your troops.

In addition to the starting Advantage, each Commander also makes a roll every few days in an attempt to increase their Advantage or even it out. This tug of war can be further expanded by various modifiers and traits. For example, the trait ‘Cautious Leader’ will decrease your potential max roll, but also increase your lowest possible roll, trading a high potential for a higher average. These exist to make even battles a tad bit unpredictable, but will rarely be the deciding factor.

Soldiers on the combat line damage the enemy on every tick. When a soldier “dies”, he will be considered to be either a Casualty, or to be Routed. Casualties, you guessed it, are considered dead and will have to be replenished over time. Routed soldiers, on the other hand, are troops that are injured or fled the battle and are added back to the army once the battle is resolved. Battles are resolved once either side runs out of fighting troops.

Once the battle is won, it enters the Aftermath phase which lasts for a few days. This is when the victor has the opportunity to chase down and kill any survivors (the Routed troops). As mentioned earlier, this is the time for certain Men-at-Arms to shine. With a high Pursuit you can kill a larger amount of the enemy to really capitalize on your victory. Alternatively, you can have a high amount of Screen to make losing battles less penalizing. Keep in mind that battles will grant you a fairly limited amount of War Score. Which brings us to sieges!

Besieging and occupying enemy holdings is the main way of gaining War Score and winning wars. As mentioned in lats week's map dev diary, Baronies are their own provinces. You will not have to siege all of them in order to occupy a full county or seize your War Goal, only fortified holdings have to be besieged. Castles and County Capitals are all fortified by default, with how difficult it is to besiege these holdings being decided by their Fort Level. Fort Level can be increased by certain buildings and modifiers.

Each Fort level increases the amount of Siege Progress you need to get before it gets occupied. You gain a base amount of Siege Progress every tick, which can be increased further by heavily outnumbering the garrison or having Siege Weapons. This constant progress won’t change over the course of a siege. It allows you to know what the maximum duration of the siege will be and you can take that into account as you plan your next move. Sieges also have what we call ‘siege events’, which occur with a fixed interval, and can make the siege progress faster by giving you a one time Siege Progress bonus, or increase your base Siege Progress. Siege Weapons are required to get the ‘breached walls’ event, which in turn allow you to directly assault the holding. This is a risky maneuver since it will cost you troops, at the benefit of vastly increasing your daily Siege Progress.

Being attacked while besieging a holding will make you the attacker of the battle, making you lose out on any usual defender bonuses you would get from the terrain. Sieges are therefore slightly riskier, and assaulting the holding to gain control of it before the enemy attacks might well be worth the cost.

A few final words on moving armies around. As I mentioned briefly in last week’s DD thread, major rivers have designated fords for crossing. You can no longer cross them freely as in CK2, and will often have to move your army to find a good place to cross. Beware though, crossing a major river will make you lose Advantage should you engage an enemy in battle on the other side, making river crossings for perfect places to catch your opponent. Along with the increased amount of Impassable Terrain, there are plenty of bottlenecks that you can use to your advantage (pun intended).

Have you ever been annoyed by walking into a province just for a short while in CK2, only to go above the Supply Limit and lose a bunch of troops? Fear not. Armies now carry an amount of Supply with them. Supply is drained whenever armies are in Baronies with a lower Supply Limit than their size. You can therefore safely march through a few Baronies with a low Supply Limit without troops dying. If you army runs out of Supply however, it will start to take attrition and lose troops over time. Supply is increased as long as you are below the Supply Limit in territory you control. Beware though, your army might not take attrition on low Supply, but it will suffer an Advantage Penalty in battles!

Chasing armies deep into enemy land is certainly not recommended. Marching into a County controlled by the enemy, that doesn’t border anything you control and is not on the coast, will make your army take a single and quite significant attrition hit. If you have a huge amount of troops to spare though, then perhaps you don’t need to worry about it.

Phew. That turned out to be a bit lengthier than expected. I hope you’ve gotten a fairly good (although slightly summarized) picture of what to expect when waging war in Crusader Kings 3!
 
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CrazyRat

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Talking of knights, an army only having e.g. 4-5 knights or whatever is just silly. Any non-trivial force in the Middle Ages would have had upwards of a hundred mounted warriors.
It actually makes sense with Holu Orders, though. I mean - they could have a maximum of few hundred ordained brothers, and while their military significance could be disputed (especially during the late Medieval, e.g. in the Teutonic Stare), their significance as political and administrative core of Order could make their loss crippling. (i would surely be glad if Holy Orders could be crippled liie this if they e.g. lost half of their character-members in battle.)

Now, otherwise I agree. I can understand this as some sort of abstraction, but this is pretty weird. "My count had ten sons with military education - therefore he will win over neighbour that had three of them!" sounds... weird
 

Sushurashi

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The more I read, the more I have a feeling of damn EU4 creeping into CK, and I not a fan.

4) Carpet sieging - REALLY?! from battles - WHAT?
6 thousand men will go around the country and siege every damn castle for 20 years in order to take one province.

Actually this system reduces Carpet sieging quite a lot, since you only have to siege county capitals and castles. Most other barony types will be auto-occupied as soon as your army moves into the barony, and or you take the county capital.
 

TwiddleFactor

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I am underwhelmed by this.

A few negative thoughts:

- As has been pointed out by others in this thread, having generic "Levies", and positing them to be representative of conscripted peasants, is not an accurate reflection of the period, because nobody would have wanted peasants in their army anyway when they have no background in fighting, any kind of equipment or armaments, are needing for tilling the fields, and can't easily be conscripted. Certainly across Europe and the Byzantine Empire, the bulk of the army consisted of the landed gentry - landholders too small to be represented by barons on the map, but certainly not the peasantry. They were expected to provide their own weaponry and supplies, in return for the land with which they were provided (feudal states) or a salary (the Byzantine Empire, but also late feudal states as we head into the early Renaissance).

- Men-at-arms wasn't a term used to distinguish between full-time soldiers and "Levies", it referred to soldiers who could afford full armour (and often a horse). Initially the terms knight and man-at-arms were interchangeable, until knight began to pick out a specific social rank as the emergent bourgeois class in the 14th and 15th centuries began to be able to fund their sons as soldiers with proper equipment without necessarily coming from an established landed background. Some men-at-arms would have been employed on a semi-permanent basis towards the end of the CK2/3 time period, but the vasy majority of men-at-arms over the time-period would have signed up or been called up purely for war.

- Talking of knights, an army only having e.g. 4-5 knights or whatever is just silly. Any non-trivial force in the Middle Ages would have had upwards of a hundred mounted warriors.

- There's a lot of depth that has been removed from CK2. The entire Skirmish phase is gone. Armies having three distinct sections - two wings and a centre - has been removed. Armies now only have a single commander. While there were aspects of the CK2 system that were opaque, I'd much rather that effort went into clarifying them and presenting information more clearly to the player, not simply removing them.

And a positive one:

- The new supply system sounds good! A definite improvement on CK2 without the dumb fort system of EU4. Looking forward to seeing how it is implemented.

I agree wholeheartedly with your first point. This idea that levies are untrained and unarmed peasant conscripts is ahistorical nonsense. Other than peasant uprisings and revolts it was almost unheard of for levied soldiers to be from classes with no land holdings of their own.

You can go back to the well documented early roman armies to get evidence of this. The poorest groups of soldiers were skirmishers and even these soldiers were required to own a certain area of their own land. Only in extremely dire circumstances did the Romans ever conscript slaves,w although not entirely the same can be thought of to occupy a similar class as serfs.

The one clarification I would make, however, is that the armies were not entirely made up of gentry. The well known english fyrd and later longbowmen are examples of "peasant" levies, but these are very different than the untrained serfs that paradox is imagining in this new CK3 system. English longbowmen were taken from the landholding peasantry (not serfs) and were required to train as part of their legal obligation as landholders. Here peasantry refers to the fact that they don't hold noble titles, but many of these Yeoman, as they were referred to as, were richer and held more land than poor knights.

This is the same case for the early frankish levies as well. They were levies of the frankish freemen and would likely have been a mix of heavy infantry, light infrantry, skirmishers and light cavalry, but they would have all been freemen not serfs with pitchforks as paradox seems to think.

With regards to CK3 in general, I was excited by the new focus on more detailed inter-character interactions and the more detailed map, but I was worried that along with this change in focus, they would abstract the economic and military organization even more than they already had in CK2. From what I have seen so far, and especially from this developer diary, it seems I was right in my suspicion. I'll be keeping an eye on the game and seeing how things turn out with later developer diaries, but if the government types are as lackluster and ahistorical as the levy system, I think I'll stick with modding CK2.
 
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PenitusVox

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It all looks great to me, so far! My only raised eyebrow has been that only one general leads combat now. I'm not sure if the reduction in micro is worth that change but we shall see!

Being attacked while besieging a holding will make you the attacker of the battle, making you lose out on any usual defender bonuses you would get from the terrain. Sieges are therefore slightly riskier, and assaulting the holding to gain control of it before the enemy attacks might well be worth the cost.
Wonderful! That's one mechanic, at least, that I'm quite glad to see ported over from EUIV. Not only does that make siege traits and artillery more useful, it also makes quicker movement traits (to get away) and terrain bonuses (for defense) more of a help. Great change!

Will there be any restrictions on your character's actions if his main castle is under siege?

For example, will communication with the outside world via letters (marriage proposal, etc.) still be possible?
Ah, that would be interesting. If there is such a thing, I hope certain traits for you and/or your court could help mitigate it. Like, say, Falconry. Sending off your personal bird to deliver a message!

Knights fight alongside your normal troops, but are much more powerful than any single Levy or Men-at-Arm, dealing and taking damage much like they would.
They can be wounded, captured or worse: killed... so be careful who you send to war! ... Or maybe do it on purpose in an unfair fight :cool:
Hmm, I do wonder, though, now that they're represented by actual characters if they might have any thoughts about running right into battle with their 200 stack of peasant levy vs. a 5,000 stack of Norse raiders.

"Milord, reports indicate Duke Rival never showed up for the battle! He claims he never received the message calling him to his regiment..."

1. Flee battle? He shall now be known throughout the lands as Duke Rival the Coward!
2. Perhaps Duke Rival the Wise is more fitting...
3. If you need something done right, you have to do it yourself! [Plot to kill]


...But probably not, since CK2 generals were able to be captured and killed as well. :p
 

guinea prince

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The one clarification I would make, however, is that the armies were not entirely made up of gentry. The well known english fyrd and later longbowmen are examples of "peasant" levies, but these are very different than the untrained serfs that paradox is imagining in this new CK3 system. English longbowmen were taken from the landholding peasantry (not serfs) and were required to train as part of their legal obligation as landholders. Here peasantry refers to the fact that they don't hold noble titles, but many of these Yeoman, as they were referred to as, were richer and held more land than poor knights.
A tradition immortalized by St. Mary's Butts, and other butts scattered across the land.
 

CrazyRat

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Also... The "it's really a character!" nature of knights makes je wonder... are we able to reassign commanders without disbanding army? I mean, can I e.g. decide that one od the knights should replace second army's leader instead. Will we be able to move him there without disbanding army he's in first?

Moreover... Where do knights show up during the mobilisation? Is nr always the capital? Or the province they are usually staying? Will this enforce some sort of character's location?
 

Provolution

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I think looting dead soldiers, as well as getting extra provisions from dead horses, dead mules, gold, extra armor and weapons etc, should play in as well. Looting of the fallen enemy army is key.
Alive steeds like horses should require a horsetaming test of sorts.
 

Feeblezak

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I have to say i’m not particularly impressed.

Levies being a nebulous, single unit mass is a downgrade from CK2, and historically inaccurate, since lords for the most part did not herd their peasants up to die pointlessly and leave the fields unattended. That is fantasy. Armies of the medieval period (by large) were made up of professional soldiery and nobility.

Less war score from battles. Why? Wars of this period could be decided by a single decisive battle. Probably why they are comparatively uncommon compared to sieges.

no flanks, skirmishing or tactics. I quite liked the detail of CK2s battles. I didnt much understand it but it was fun. I very much dislike EU4s battle system by comparison.

siege engines being a unit is weird to me too. My understanding is that siege engines were built on location as needed, barring a few examples (the famous warwolf trebuchet for instance). However i can believe these units represent skilled engineers and their craftsmen who can build the engine in question.

I do like how knights are a thing now though. Thats pretty cool.
 

Ixalmaris

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Care to elucidate?
1. A siege did require that the attacker encircles the enemy and control all access points as otherwise the besieged could come and go as they please making the tactic ineffective.
2. If the besieged retreats to a more advantageous position the siege is effectively lifted and there would be no need to attack said army.
3. Having a few hundred or even thousand men threatening yor rear is incredibly dangerous. It forces you to either hold back part of your forces to defend against sorties or to accept that at any point the enemy can attack you from behind.
 

ramius3443

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Cool! Except for the decrease warscore for fighting battles (why? battles in this era were often very decisive, and it's not particularly fun in CKII to win complete victories on the field only to have to spend years in fait-accompli sieges), and where are flanks?

Three questions, @Servancour
1. Do different unit types have different map movement speed, or are they all equivalent?
2. Can supplies be replenished upon finishing a siege or raiding a holding?
3. Following from the two prior questions , are Chevaunchee's or other raiding tactics going to be viable (ie send a few knights and a couple hundred mounted men at arms to blitz through enemy territory, burning undefended cities and churches along the way?). The attrition soft "ZOC" system is what makes me wonder about this: I like the idea as regards to big armies, but without a way to mitigate/avoid it with a small raiding stack a Chevaunchee probably isn't viable due to the attrition hits.
 
Last edited:

Col. W. T. Philmore

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1. A siege did require that the attacker encircles the enemy and control all access points as otherwise the besieged could come and go as they please making the tactic ineffective.

Why so? There are not so much "access points". You need to control main gate, and not let enemy's forces to come out and form a combat order to be able to fight you. And have some patrols to prevent small groups to climb out and make sabotages or go call for reinforcements.
Also garrison is not as big as army and moving away from the walls is suicide, so it will anyway sit there and wait for main forces, if you are hanging around with your army, no matter if you stay as a camp or make fuss around the walls.
 

Staal

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My main fear is that this will result in simple blob vs. blob where the outcome is 99% of the time is already decided as there are so few mechanics to interact with. You can try to recruit counter men-at-arms and thats it. No Phases to optimize, no trying to focusing on a flank to break it, no optimizing commanders for a specific tactic, no tactics, etc.
You put your best commander in and smash your army against the enemies army and thats it.

Also, as it was pointed out, peseant armies were not a thing.
As opposed to the really complex mechanics in CK2 that also resulted in blob vs blob?

With respect.
 

Arthur_Revan

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What? In CK2 you amass your stack of doom to kill the enemy stack of doom and then proceed to blitz-siege the hell out of every province. How is that "too hard" or strategic?

You divide the blob into several armies, learn who leads the enemy army, choose which army has which levies type, appoint proper commanders and SUB commanders
(yeah! that a thing, and it important), depending on levies composition, send one army to siege key location, and others to fight armies in proper locations if possible.

THAT HOW.

Making a big stack of doom with one general, with no regard for attrition because of stupid manpower, and pray to RNG, while watching squares on two lines, instead of proper flangs,
is a DUMB EU4 mechanic, which requires no brain and exactly why is boring.

CK2 battles are great in-depth, but you NEED to read the wiki, to understand how it works, and it a Bammer for accessibility to new players.
As many have pointed out, I too hoped for more depth and accessibility for combat, instead, they cut it out and made copy past from UE4. "BRAVO".

I love the new dynasty and map - THAT is the improvement of CORE CK2 mechanic.
I hate new armies and war - THAT a downgrade of CORE CK2 mechanic.
 
Last edited:

Mark von Trient

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I read before that 20 knights or so equal 200 levies. Tbh I'd think this makes knights, aside from role-play purposes, rather useless. I don't want to micro manage 30-40 minor titles and then these knights only have the power of 300-400 levies. If so I could just as well hire a mercenary company to balance out the effort it takes to knight them and micro manage them. I think the power and use of knights in war has to be tweaked a bit so it will actually feel like they have an impact.

My solution would be for a knight to have the power of his martial x10. So if he has 10 martial, he's worth as much as 100 levies. If he has 40 martial, he's worth as much as 400 levies. Then add them together and you have a significant force of knights. In turn you can probably reduce the amount of possible knights available as minor titles.

------------------

'Knight' is now a minor title you can bestow on characters in your realm with high enough combat prowess. These characters will join your armies on the battlefield, and the number you can have at a time is based on things like your rank and how much Prestige you have accumulated.

"And they will be, as in history... they are killing machines," Fåhreus says. "Like, levies are nothing compared to them. So they actually do tremendous damage. If you have 20 knights fighting in an army, that's worth like 200 levies or something."

Link to the article about the knights' strength: https://www.usgamer.net/articles/paradox-answers-12-major-questions-about-crusader-kings-3
They have to make it user friendly but I'd like to see as many knights as possible, 10-20 knights in a whole kingdom is not enough at all

Edit: I just read the dev reply and they're not a title, they're assigned automatically to the "strongest" characters
 

shigad

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Please add siege towers! I love siege weapons, but I don't want to see just 3 different tiers of rock throwing weapons. I want to see siege towers! With flaming arrows!
The battering ram is cool though!
 

shigad

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The more I read, the more I have a feeling of damn EU4 creeping into CK, and I not a fan.

1) Only one commander - BAD!!!
On so many levels (+ ahistorical), if you (player) are lazy enough, to appoint proper commanders to each flank, in order to use their strengths, then it's your problem that your loosing.

2) No tactics, no skirmish - WHY?
And wat the hell is screening?!
When the army is running it running, there are no magical defenders that appear from nowhere and start protecting everyone from damn cavalry, and if they are special troops, then what the hell were they doing during the battle itself, was waiting to lose?

3) Little war score from battles - WHAT?
If your army was annihilated, your chances of victory are significantly diminished, and it may be time to sue for peace.
I agree, these are all straight downgrades tactically, less fun, and totally non-realistic.
While having more focus on moving armies around is a blessed change, I feel like war is no longer going to be epically won or lost by having an amazing commander stand against armies twice his size, and instead it will be moving your armies back and forth, just waiting for your enemy to attack. And wiping an army is not gonna be satisfying if they just have screening.