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CK3 Dev Diary #3 - War

Greetings!

War. What is it good for? You may ask. A whole lot I’d say. You can use it to press that juicy Claim you have been holding on to for a while, or perhaps you’d rather use it to put the unbelievers to the sword. Whichever strikes your fancy. The topic of the day is war, and more specifically, how we go about waging war.

I aim to give you an overview of how wars will be fought. I will not go into details about CBs or anything like that this time. Bear in mind that the game is still very much in development and everything talked about here is subject to change.

Let’s start by taking a look at what an army is made up of. Just like in Crusader Kings 2, the bulk of your armies consists of Levies. Levies in Crusader Kings 3 are made up of their own unit type, simply called Levy. These are essentially conscripted peasants forced to do your bidding and are not very impressive on their own. In great numbers, however, they are an efficient meat shield meant to complement the troops of your armies that have a far higher impact: Men-at-Arms.

dd_03_armynumbers.png


Men-at-Arms are the equivalent to the Retinues of CK2. They are trained troops that come in several different unit types which excel in their given role. There are base variations available for everyone to recruit, such as Light Cavalry and Heavy Infantry, but the really interesting ones are usually unique to certain cultures or specific regions of the map, though all have their own stats and uses. Speaking of stats, there are four different values present on a Men-at-Arms regiment that you need to keep track off:

Damage - This is obviously the amount of damage a single soldier of this type is able to inflict on the opponent.

Toughness - This is how much damage a soldier can take.

Pursuit - In the aftermath of a battle (more on this below), Pursuit increases the amount of damage you can inflict upon a routing enemy.

Screen - The opposite of Pursuit, Screen allows you to protect fleeing soldiers from being killed.

dd_03_pikemen.png


Not all Men-at-Arms are equal. You will have access to a few immediately from the start and unlock access to additional regiment types as you progress throughout the game. Some will be similar to each other, but may be tailored towards a certain terrain type. Others may just be a straight upgrade, but will in those cases be much more expensive than their weaker counterpart.

Men-at-Arms allow you to customize your army for any given situation. If you know where or who you will fight, certain Men-at-Arms will be far superior. Is there a lot of hilly terrain in your region? Then Archers are the way to go. Are you facing a lot of cavalry? Bring Pikemen! A smaller army will stand a much higher chance of winning if you bring a Men-at-Arm type that counters those of the enemy. When a regiment is countered, it’s efficiency in battle will be lowered, with its Damage output significantly reduced. If the countered regiment is greatly outnumbered by the countering type, efficiency will reduce even further. There’s a limit to how much a Men-at-Arm’s Damage can be reduced though, as to not make your expensive troops completely useless.

Next we have a special kind of Men-at-Arms: Siege Weapons. Medieval warfare was all about sieges. Castles and sieges are very iconic for the time frame, so we felt that it was necessary to have that properly represented. You’ll start off with access to a rather weak catapult, but it will still allow you to besiege holdings faster than without one. Later on, you’ll unlock improved siege weapons, such as trebuchets, that are able to speed up sieges significantly.

dd_03_siegeweapons.png


You can only own a certain number of Men-at-Arms regiments at any given time, so choose carefully which troops you decide to recruit!

Levies and Men-at-Arms are not the only soldiers available to you. As a ruler, you have a number of Knights at your disposal. These are the vassals and courtiers of your realm with a high Prowess, which is the equivalent to Combat Rating in CK2, and represents how good a character is at fighting and is used when they participate in battles. You can normally only have a few dedicated Knights, but there are various ways to increase the number of Knights, as well as their effectiveness.

dd_03_knight.png


Finally, we have the Commander. An army can only have a single Commander, who uses his Martial skill to improve the troops under his command. There are plenty of different commander traits available, which either have a direct effect on battles, such as terrain bonuses, or give the Commander bonuses outside of battles. One such example is the ability to have supply last longer (more on this below).

dd_03_commanders.png


dd_03_holywarrior.png


With armies out of the way, let’s have a look at battles! At the very start of any battle, a combat width is set that decides how many troops are able to fight each other at the same time. The width is set to the relative size of the defender, depending on the terrain type you are fighting in, being larger in flat and open terrain, and smaller in rough terrain and mountains. I would generally advise against attacking larger armies in plains for example...

The single most important part of a battle is Advantage, which is essentially a modifier that increases the damage of all troops on either side. When a battle starts, all sources of Advantage is taken into consideration. It can come from traits, terrain, buildings, etc. but most importantly, the Martial skill of your Commander. All of these are added together for both sides of the battle. The difference is then added as the Advantage bonus for the side with the higher Advantage.

Example: Your army has a total Advantage of 40, and attacks an enemy army that has a lousy total of 10. This means that you will have an Advantage bonus of 30 during the battle, which then translates into a rather significant damage bonus for your troops.

In addition to the starting Advantage, each Commander also makes a roll every few days in an attempt to increase their Advantage or even it out. This tug of war can be further expanded by various modifiers and traits. For example, the trait ‘Cautious Leader’ will decrease your potential max roll, but also increase your lowest possible roll, trading a high potential for a higher average. These exist to make even battles a tad bit unpredictable, but will rarely be the deciding factor.

Soldiers on the combat line damage the enemy on every tick. When a soldier “dies”, he will be considered to be either a Casualty, or to be Routed. Casualties, you guessed it, are considered dead and will have to be replenished over time. Routed soldiers, on the other hand, are troops that are injured or fled the battle and are added back to the army once the battle is resolved. Battles are resolved once either side runs out of fighting troops.

Once the battle is won, it enters the Aftermath phase which lasts for a few days. This is when the victor has the opportunity to chase down and kill any survivors (the Routed troops). As mentioned earlier, this is the time for certain Men-at-Arms to shine. With a high Pursuit you can kill a larger amount of the enemy to really capitalize on your victory. Alternatively, you can have a high amount of Screen to make losing battles less penalizing. Keep in mind that battles will grant you a fairly limited amount of War Score. Which brings us to sieges!

Besieging and occupying enemy holdings is the main way of gaining War Score and winning wars. As mentioned in lats week's map dev diary, Baronies are their own provinces. You will not have to siege all of them in order to occupy a full county or seize your War Goal, only fortified holdings have to be besieged. Castles and County Capitals are all fortified by default, with how difficult it is to besiege these holdings being decided by their Fort Level. Fort Level can be increased by certain buildings and modifiers.

Each Fort level increases the amount of Siege Progress you need to get before it gets occupied. You gain a base amount of Siege Progress every tick, which can be increased further by heavily outnumbering the garrison or having Siege Weapons. This constant progress won’t change over the course of a siege. It allows you to know what the maximum duration of the siege will be and you can take that into account as you plan your next move. Sieges also have what we call ‘siege events’, which occur with a fixed interval, and can make the siege progress faster by giving you a one time Siege Progress bonus, or increase your base Siege Progress. Siege Weapons are required to get the ‘breached walls’ event, which in turn allow you to directly assault the holding. This is a risky maneuver since it will cost you troops, at the benefit of vastly increasing your daily Siege Progress.

Being attacked while besieging a holding will make you the attacker of the battle, making you lose out on any usual defender bonuses you would get from the terrain. Sieges are therefore slightly riskier, and assaulting the holding to gain control of it before the enemy attacks might well be worth the cost.

A few final words on moving armies around. As I mentioned briefly in last week’s DD thread, major rivers have designated fords for crossing. You can no longer cross them freely as in CK2, and will often have to move your army to find a good place to cross. Beware though, crossing a major river will make you lose Advantage should you engage an enemy in battle on the other side, making river crossings for perfect places to catch your opponent. Along with the increased amount of Impassable Terrain, there are plenty of bottlenecks that you can use to your advantage (pun intended).

Have you ever been annoyed by walking into a province just for a short while in CK2, only to go above the Supply Limit and lose a bunch of troops? Fear not. Armies now carry an amount of Supply with them. Supply is drained whenever armies are in Baronies with a lower Supply Limit than their size. You can therefore safely march through a few Baronies with a low Supply Limit without troops dying. If you army runs out of Supply however, it will start to take attrition and lose troops over time. Supply is increased as long as you are below the Supply Limit in territory you control. Beware though, your army might not take attrition on low Supply, but it will suffer an Advantage Penalty in battles!

Chasing armies deep into enemy land is certainly not recommended. Marching into a County controlled by the enemy, that doesn’t border anything you control and is not on the coast, will make your army take a single and quite significant attrition hit. If you have a huge amount of troops to spare though, then perhaps you don’t need to worry about it.

Phew. That turned out to be a bit lengthier than expected. I hope you’ve gotten a fairly good (although slightly summarized) picture of what to expect when waging war in Crusader Kings 3!
 
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CrazyRat

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I am extremely disappointed by the changes to the battle system. When Henrik was talking about how he wanted to make CK3 more user friendly without reducing complexity the battles in CK2 were the first thing that came to my mind. It was an elaborate system that had a nearly perfect balance between abstraction versus simulation, but it lacked clarity and you had to delve into third party sites to actually understand the system fully. It was a perfect candidate for improved approachability without dumbing things down, all it needed were better and more visible explanations of the tactics, phases and flanks ingame. And then you could build on that by making the characters leading the flanks and the relations between them more important.

But instead of that, what we have here seems to be just a modified version of the RNG heavy and frankly, uninspired EU4 system. I don't know about you, but when I see a CK2 battle, I'm actually immersed and even though I'm watching an abstraction, I can imagine the actual battle represented unfolding. I can see volleys of arrows, cavalry charges, a collapsing center being narrowly saved by a flank that managed to defeat it's opponent, etc. When I'm watching an EU4 battle, I can see... dice being rolled and I hope my number is larger than the enemy's. Not exactly what I would call exciting or immersive.
Well, no. CK II battles were awful. For most people (and I am included) they were mostly about who would bring most men into the fray. Sure, you could make some difference by gambling the system – but it never felt worth it. Given that you had no easy way to even change the composition of your own army, it didn’t make a drat of a difference in situation when you were scraping for resources as a minor… and if you’re mighty king or emperor, then why would you care? You can easily get upper hand without even looking at your flank composition.

Overall: I am glad there are >some< changes, since previously it felt like battles results are 100% fixed and you can't do a thing about it without putting much more effort than it's worth.
 

nmcj1996

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And why should the besiegers always get a penalty? Because they are in the worst position, by default. The besiegers need to bring more men just to even the odds, and I'm sure they guarded their camp as best as possible, because if the besiegers were besieged by a relieving army, they would be in the very worst of scenarios.

I'm really sorry - maybe I'm just being very dense here, but I'm really struggling to see why the besieger would be in a worse position than the relieving army. They are the ones choosing where to camp around the siege and while castles are obviously built on defensive terrain, this doesn't apply to the terrain immediately surrounding the area. I cant see a reason why an army attacking the besieging army would get the benefit of any high ground (or whatever else the terrain bonus represents) in the area?
 

Denkt

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I'm really sorry - maybe I'm just being very dense here, but I'm really struggling to see why the besieger would be in a worse position than the relieving army. They are the ones choosing where to camp around the siege and while castles are obviously built on defensive terrain, this doesn't apply to the terrain immediately surrounding the area. I cant see a reason why an army attacking the besieging army would get the benefit of any high ground (or whatever else the terrain bonus represents) in the area?
Assuming the defender is smart they would have burned Everything Before the besieger arrived so the only way for the besieger to get supplies would be from the supply line so if the relieving army is smart it would simply cut the supply line and the besieger will either have to fight or leave.
 

Drakken

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I'm really sorry - maybe I'm just being very dense here, but I'm really struggling to see why the besieger would be in a worse position than the relieving army. They are the ones choosing where to camp around the siege and while castles are obviously built on defensive terrain, this doesn't apply to the terrain immediately surrounding the area. I cant see a reason why an army attacking the besieging army would get the benefit of any high ground (or whatever else the terrain bonus represents) in the area?

a) Forces are spreaded around the besieged forteress to cover all chokepoints.
b) Loss of initiative and no choice of battlefield terrain, compared to the relieving army.
c) The possibility of a sortie forces the besieging army to split his army in two, with one left facing the forteress.
d) Sieges are a very demoralizing and taxing endeavour, both for the besieging and the besieged.
e) Relieving army usually go from the rear and attempt to cut the besieging army's communication and supply routes.
 

nmcj1996

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a) Forces are spreaded around the besieged forteress to cover all chokepoints.
b) Loss of initiative and no choice of battlefield terrain, compared to the relieving army.
c) The possibility of a sortie forces the besieging army to split his army in two, with one left facing the forteress.

a) In reality a besieging force is usually in one camp, not spread around a fortress though
b) I really disagree with this though, they're the ones being attacked and so would have the choice of terrain
c) Which would be a fair point if the garrison was involved in the combat, which they aren't, and were a large enough force to make a difference, which they often aren't in CK2.

Assuming the defender is smart they would have burned Everything Before the besieger arrived so the only way for the besieger to get supplies would be from the supply line so if the relieving army is smart it would simply cut the supply line and the besieger will either have to fight or leave.

This is actually a really fair point, thanks for the reply!
 

Don Wing

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Knights should not only be characters, ( barons, counts, courtsmen, etc)
They should be a number related to LANDS ( aka castle baronies), whealth and Martial elements in the realm.

Also and Idea, perhaps you already thought it, some units ( men at arms) shoud appear according to technology, example HALBARDIERS; CROSSBOWMEN, TWO HANDED SWORDMEN... perhaps HAND CANNONIERS, also, some equipment make units MUCH better than it predecessors, like PLATE ARMOR or COMPOSITE BOWS.
 

CrazyRat

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Assuming the defender is smart they would have burned Everything Before the besieger arrived so the only way for the besieger to get supplies would be from the supply line so if the relieving army is smart it would simply cut the supply line and the besieger will either have to fight or leave.
I think that is already modelled by CK III, though. I mean, armies drag their own supplies - and lack of supplies penalises army, as said here:
You can therefore safely march through a few Baronies with a low Supply Limit without troops dying. If you army runs out of Supply however, it will start to take attrition and lose troops over time. Supply is increased as long as you are below the Supply Limit in territory you control. Beware though, your army might not take attrition on low Supply, but it will suffer an Advantage Penalty in battles!

I don't know if it goes as far as it will in Imperator - where it is stated that you can lose a siege by the virtue of using up all your supply before defenders - but I think you probably could try to haranguing a part of defenders' forces. (If they can drop their supplies to bigger army.)
 

Ixalmaris

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a) In reality a besieging force is usually in one camp, not spread around a fortress though
b) I really disagree with this though, they're the ones being attacked and so would have the choice of terrain
c) Which would be a fair point if the garrison was involved in the combat, which they aren't, and were a large enough force to make a difference, which they often aren't in CK2.

All of that is pretty much completely wrong.
 

MrNewVegas

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Well, no. CK II battles were awful. For most people (and I am included) they were mostly about who would bring most men into the fray. Sure, you could make some difference by gambling the system – but it never felt worth it. Given that you had no easy way to even change the composition of your own army, it didn’t make a drat of a difference in situation when you were scraping for resources as a minor… and if you’re mighty king or emperor, then why would you care? You can easily get upper hand without even looking at your flank composition.

Overall: I am glad there are >some< changes, since previously it felt like battles results are 100% fixed and you can't do a thing about it without putting much more effort than it's worth.
The CK2 system suffered from not giving players enough agency to change how tactics worked, because tactics decide battles. This system seems to be throwing the best parts of the CK2 battle system because they (think that they) desperately needed to get rid of the worst parts. I think CK2 would have been vastly better if tactics were either less randomised or you could choose then yourself
 

Riekopo

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The Knightly class was huge was it not? Only having a few Knights in the army doesn't make any sense. There were Knights everywhere and they were a big deal. Losing lots of your Knights in battle should be a big deal.
 

CrabHelmet

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I am underwhelmed by this.

A few negative thoughts:

- As has been pointed out by others in this thread, having generic "Levies", and positing them to be representative of conscripted peasants, is not an accurate reflection of the period, because nobody would have wanted peasants in their army anyway when they have no background in fighting, any kind of equipment or armaments, are needing for tilling the fields, and can't easily be conscripted. Certainly across Europe and the Byzantine Empire, the bulk of the army consisted of the landed gentry - landholders too small to be represented by barons on the map, but certainly not the peasantry. They were expected to provide their own weaponry and supplies, in return for the land with which they were provided (feudal states) or a salary (the Byzantine Empire, but also late feudal states as we head into the early Renaissance).

- Men-at-arms wasn't a term used to distinguish between full-time soldiers and "Levies", it referred to soldiers who could afford full armour (and often a horse). Initially the terms knight and man-at-arms were interchangeable, until knight began to pick out a specific social rank as the emergent bourgeois class in the 14th and 15th centuries began to be able to fund their sons as soldiers with proper equipment without necessarily coming from an established landed background. Some men-at-arms would have been employed on a semi-permanent basis towards the end of the CK2/3 time period, but the vasy majority of men-at-arms over the time-period would have signed up or been called up purely for war.

- Talking of knights, an army only having e.g. 4-5 knights or whatever is just silly. Any non-trivial force in the Middle Ages would have had upwards of a hundred mounted warriors.

- There's a lot of depth that has been removed from CK2. The entire Skirmish phase is gone. Armies having three distinct sections - two wings and a centre - has been removed. Armies now only have a single commander. While there were aspects of the CK2 system that were opaque, I'd much rather that effort went into clarifying them and presenting information more clearly to the player, not simply removing them.

And a positive one:

- The new supply system sounds good! A definite improvement on CK2 without the dumb fort system of EU4. Looking forward to seeing how it is implemented.
 

Rubidium

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Still unclear about the role of vassals in all this. Do your vassals contribute to your levy/men at arms limit? Do they provide troops directly? Do they do like tribals in CK2 and fight independently on your behalf as a vassal swarm?

Because one of the things I liked most about CK2 was your reliance on your vassals (and keeping them happy and at least somewhat prosperous) to provide most of your troops; if you no longer rely on them and their infrastructure for the bulk of your military, that's a major step back.
 

Ivashanko

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This is interesting. I really hope that the new supply system means that attackers will actually lose sieges sometimes. I'm under the impression that fortifications weren't primarily made to slow down the enemy: they were made to stop them. Besieging a land should be a risky endeavor, and the attackers should lose more often than they win.
 

Mauer

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A bit off-topic, but I hope the UI can be resized or something, there's so much wasted space in those UI elements. I want as much info as possible in as little as possible screen real estate, this isn't a touch-screen game (hopefully).
 

Varus90

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Is movement actually still province-to-province-based? Or is it free-range like in Total War and Knights of Honor?
The army in the picture is untypically not directly on the holding. The Catapults in Dev-Diary are neither. And the answer about zone-of-control was fairly vague. Has there been any answer to this already? Terrain and bridges being a thing gives me some hope.
The army is moving through a barony, and the siege engines, since they were arranged in order of technological sophistication (from simple catapults to an early cannon) were probably just showing off the sprites.
 

Sushurashi

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I see it more as they go to meet the other army a few kilometres away from the siege not literally under the walls of the siege, otherwise the siege garrison would take part in the battle and suffer casualties from it. I know that another poster mentioned Richard I in the Crusades of when this did happen, but I cant imagine its is common that a commander would literally just let the opposing army march up to them without moving at all to find a somewhat defensible position.

To your point about resupplying, I think you are underestimating the amount of supplies that lifting a siege would need - it would require tonnes of heavily weighed down caravans that could be stopped by just a few of the sieging army's scouts blocking roads - they don't need to literally form a constant wall of men around the castle.

This also happened to Julius Ceasar. It became a race to finish his siege before his forces could succumb to the reinforcing Gaulish armies forces. This happens often enough that there is a term for this: "contravallation" So this isn't such an isolated thing.