CK3 - Dev Diary #23 - Holy Orders

[Videogames]

But that's forcing much more flavor down your throat. I really think the best comparison are theocracies - in Ckii, I can invite a claimant, demand-convert them, land them as a temple holder, fight a war for their claim on a title of any tier, and then:

1) If they're my vassal, I can call them to fight in any sort of war
2) They'll likely start acting tyrannical and revoking their heretic vassals property, taking that which is not given
3) They'll likely start declaring their own holy wars
4) They'll accumulate vast wealth and material possessions and generally be living in a way totally incompatible with Therevada or Jain monastic rules and ideals

Which is all absolutely bonkers for a Bhikku. Arguably more bonkers than a holy order which has at least has one condition (you must be at war with a heretic) before they'll fight for you. Theocracies really only represent the behavior of European prince-bishops and the Papal State. But we accept that the framework of the game is built with Europe in mind first and the standard we can reasonably hold them to is just to try and build other regions in the way that best represents reality within the confines of that framework.

That is a good point that elevating a bhikkhu to count status or greater results in all sorts of outrageous behavior, and that it results from taking the prince-bishop model from Europe and applying it all across the map. (And I've taken note of it when playing CK2.) But I've got a different instinct as to what is to be done. In CK3 terms, I'd make it a doctrinal choice as to whether theocracies can exist above the individual temple holding level. If they can't, then any cleric who acquires count or higher status disrobes and goes back to lay life. (I actually think that CK3 may in fact be doing this - the first Religion dev diary showed a doctrinal choice for "Clerical Function" and it was set to "Control". That sounds to me that there might be other Function doctrine options that limit the power of the clergy.)

 

[Te. Kenzo]

Yes, it will be shown in the interaction preview window before you send the request!

Could be cool be able to choose, if clergy or holy order, and what order.

Every faith can have their own Holy Orders, yes. Most Kings/Emperors will not found one since it will be fairly costly, but a faith can hypothetically end up with a bunch!

We pre-script the names for faiths and religions (Christian Holy Orders have, among others: Knights of the Chalice, Guardians of the Shroud, and Knights Hospitaller), and if they run out the order will be named after the barony you lease to them.

Custom faith can absolutely create their own Holy orders!

A good way to generate names for the orders could be based on owned relics. (maybe not all the relics, because "Knights of the Holy Prepuce" doesn't sound exactly epic in the right sense)

I have other questions:

1. We are talking about baronies leased from many kingdoms to an holy ordes that can have also a patron. How this will be rapresented in the political map and in the relations beetween a king and an order? Maybe, if I can take again these lands in the map it should be rapresented as an area not mine but potentially mine.

2. Are Grand Masters of the orders going to have unique cloths? I expect to see them ask me lands with more "gravitas" than what we see in the screenshots

3. Have you pondered about using a similar system to rapresent lands given to the not military orders, both clergy and monks? A classic situation where my female descendants are going to be abasses in the local abbey ruled by an order .

 

[BrotherJonathan]

Another nice complexity upgrade from CKII, although I am a bit concerned about the potential for abusing/spamming this mechanic.

 

[Dragatus]

 

[Bovrick]

I should probably wait until we have concrete details on what Fervor actually is, but it seems to me that a potential compromise between Ck2 and CK3 rules could be made.

Military Orders should have an opinion over who they're willing to fight based on their Religion's Fervor and Tolerance. High Fervor should be very resistant to fighting same/tolerated faith, but very pro fighting heretics and infidels: Low Fervor would make an Order more ambivalent towards the extremes. Maybe this could alter Piety costs (and even let orders slip towards Mercenary behaviours by accepting Gold for compensation). Similar effects could come from Doctrines.

This in turn translates your actions into a relationship with the Grandmaster. Using Military Orders in ways they dislike should push them towards abandoning you. This way you might be able to get away with a few fights against the Faithful, especially if you aren't instigating them, but you're liable to have an acrimonious breakup, potentially at a really bad time.

Just to clarify: I'd propose a new Opinion Modifier, that is triggered positively or negatively when you use troops associated with a Character in battle, depending on who the troops are fighting. I think having this type of modifier around would be useful in general, for vassals, mercenary captains etc; and especially to open up this type of interaction for modding more easily. It would be nice to see a bit of nuance too: maybe based on who is the instigator of a confrontation, or even the expected outcome of a confrontation (I wouldn't appreciate my people being meat shields for a lost cause), but they aren't necessary.

In the case of Military Orders, it should be possible for them to abandon you if the Grandmaster opinion of you falls low enough. The modifier should compare the Religion of the Order, against the Religion of any forces they come into combat with, if the faiths are Hostile (or Excommunicated etc) then the opinion boost is positive; if the faiths are not hostile, or worse aligned, then the modifier is negative. The Fervour of the religion that the Holy Order belongs to could act as scalar on the opinion effect: High Fervor gives larger boosts from attacking Hostiles, but larger costs too - so you'd get away with using them against your faith only sparingly, unless you placate them with heathen blood too.

For AI usage, I think they could get away with using orders normally until they know a confrontation will cause them to lose the order, at which point it's a cost/benefit heuristic as to whether it is worth losing an order to get them involved in a particular battle.

 

[Munin]

I really like the idea! I was kind of hoping the devs would make holy orders more important in the game (i posted a thread about make the holy orders a playable faction). It is nice to see more history added in the game


I d like to hope i gave them some inspiration if they did not already think of it ;-)

"While they were individually sworn to poverty, the Order as a whole became astonishingly wealthy. It helped that a Papal Bull issued by Pope Innocent II exempted them from paying any taxes. The Templars collected donations from all over Europe. Kings and queens gave them huge estates—Alfonso I of Aragon left them a third of his kingdom in his will. Regular people also made donations in their wills, leaving the Order small plots of land that added up. The knights ended up owning castles, farms, and a whole fleet of ships, as well as the entire island of Cyprus. They didn’t just hang onto these possessions. They used them to generate more wealth, trading crops, wool, and wine across Europe and renting land to tenants." https://www.history.com/news/knights-templar-facts-crusades-wealth

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...as-a-playable-factions.1333243/#post-26270176

 

[TheMind]

Do Prestige and Piety, in very large quantity, give a minor opinion boost to all of your vassals (maybe those who don't have the Ambitious or Envy trait)?

 

[Geodynamis]

Are any historical orders going to be speciificallyy formed by decision or event? Like the Knights of Calatrava or Order of the Dragon.

 

[Rockphed]

Do Prestige and Piety, in very large quantity, give a minor opinion boost to all of your vassals (maybe those who don't have the Ambitious or Envy trait)?

I believe there are permanent(ish) versions of prestige and piety (the prestige one is renown, don't remember the piety one) and getting past certain thresholds of them gets you benefits to vassal opinion (and other things, I think there is an invasion CB mentioned somewhere that is available at the highest level of renown)