CK3 - Dev Diary #23 - Holy Orders

[Rockphed]

How powerful are they aimed to be, compared to a noble of the same rank/holdings; and what kind of interactions can they have with a weaker/smaller liege?

Just wondering for instance; what downside is there to simply granting all land won in war to the order to avoid having too many/any at all dynastic/feudal vassals?

Based on previous diaries, I suspect that you only get money (and probably not much) from Holy Order vassals unless you raise them. And if they don't like you, you probably don't even get the money. So if you are mostly fighting religious enemies you are probably okay to give the Holy Order a bunch of land, but if you might end up in a war against a non-hostile-religion neighbor who is about your size you should ensure that you have a good mix of feudal vassals.

 

[vyshan]

Question when telling my son to take the vows. Could he join a monastic order instead of a militant order?

 

[Illusive_Mike]

Will the AI seek to create Holy Orders? For instance, if I'm an emperor with 3 kings and I'm rolling out "the Gospel of Partying, 2nd edition", will my kings create more Party Orders in their lands to protect them from 1e purists? Will only the more zealous characters seek to create HOs? Or is it a "target of opportunity" that will almost never happen because the AI doesn't save up for it?

 

[DeinonychusTaco]

but unlike in CK2 they will fight all enemies once hired

This seems pretty immersion-breaking, what was the reasoning for this change? In CK2 it felt like the distinction between mercenaries and holy orders was mercs were motivated only by money, whereas holy orders had morals they stuck to; this seems to throw that difference out the window.

Everything else looks good though, excited to create my own especially as a custom religion.

 

[sreckom92]

Can I choose the name for my newly created holy order?

 

[Heiliges Thüringens Reich]

Regarding the Teutonic Order: will they create Reisen for local crusades? If so, will secular lords ba able to join them?

 

[Danir]

This seems pretty immersion-breaking, what was the reasoning for this change? In CK2 it felt like the distinction between mercenaries and holy orders was mercs were motivated only by money, whereas holy orders had morals they stuck to; this seems to throw that difference out the window.

Everything else looks good though, excited to create my own especially as a custom religion.

It did create a few weird situations where you would march with your army accompanied by holy order knights and suddenly an enemy with a smaller force would attack you because they knew the holy order troops would just stand by and watch, which doesn't sound very realistic. My only hope is they will add something to avoid this being too exploitable.

 

[Taevyr]

Well, at least the Crazy Sex Cults will now have proper Holy orders defending them, so that's a plus

Finally, a chance to create a true "Order of the Garter"

 

[Danir]

Will you be able to use a holy order when trying to take down an excommunicated ruler ?

 

[AmericanViking]

Since you said that a king, or emperor, can make a holy order, does that mean we will finally see more than one holy order, for non-abrahamic faiths? Also, will holy orders be subject to the religion that they are created under? Like, if someone creates a heresy, and wants to create a holy order, will that holy order be stuck to that heresy?

 

[DeinonychusTaco]

would attack you because they knew the holy order troops would just stand by and watch, which doesn't sound very realistic

On the contrary, I think that's more realistic than a catholic force attacking you + the knights hospitaller, and said holy order just shrugging and deciding to mace some good christians in the face because, well, they started it or something. If you need a divine cause -- punish the heathens -- to hire a holy order in the first place, it seems clear to me that the members of that holy order shouldn't be willing to engage in combat that's clearly outside that cause, whether that's fighting in another concurrent war you have, or suppressing rebels (of your religion) from your own citizenry.

It doesn't make a huge difference, really, it's just something I'm going to frown at. Maybe an ideal spot for a game rule, too.

 

[Fofotron]

Will all the historical Holy Orders be in the game?

Will they be able to create their own Stae, just like the Teutonic Order did in CK2 and in real life?

And I also question them being able to fight ALL your enemies once hired, they should fight only heretics and heathens like in CK2, that made an important distinction between them and mercenaries.

And lastly, will we be able to play as Holy Orders, or at least swear fealty to them?

 

[Fofotron]

Also, will there be Orders of Chivalry, like the Order of the Dragon, or the Order of Saint George, as in secular Chivalric Orders?

 

[Aaron_S]

Cool stuff, yet i have to ask again for a minor change i requested before:

Call knights in the military screen NOTABLE KNIGHTS instead. It's one single word yet stops me -and possibly other people, too - from having an aneurism. You also don't have the issue of the screen saying theres 300 knights and "oh yeah btw theres also 2 knights"...

PLEASE

EDIT: This is especially important for holy orders which had way higher percentages of knights seeing the fields.

 

[Al Davoodi]

Wow will try then to create a holy order full of Amazons after i have created a faith based in a true CK style. Could depending on the doctirines i have choosen for my faith, for example lustful and others the people in a holy order could still get married and have kids, but they would always stay then in the order if they do not travel or get invited to other courts`?

 

[Heptopus]

Nice Dev Diary! Will we be able to tell whether a character would be going to join a holy order or the clergy before the character is asked to take the vows?

Yes, it will be shown in the interaction preview window before you send the request!

 

[Danir]

On the contrary, I think that's more realistic than a catholic force attacking you + the knights hospitaller, and said holy order just shrugging and deciding to mace some good christians in the face because, well, they started it or something. If you need a divine cause -- punish the heathens -- to hire a holy order in the first place, it seems clear to me that the members of that holy order shouldn't be willing to engage in combat that's clearly outside that cause, whether that's fighting in another concurrent war you have, or suppressing rebels (of your religion) from your own citizenry.

It doesn't make a huge difference, really, it's just something I'm going to frown at. Maybe an ideal spot for a game rule, too.

Well I have to disagree, imagine you are a knight hospitaler called to help defend a fellow christian and are en route to face the heathens, when another christian army approaches your army wanting to take advantage of the rulers war with the heathens instead of justly aiding his defense against the heathens ! Personally it would perhaps make sense if they aided you only in case it was a deffensive battle, because this whole idea falls apart once you are the aggressor. Having a game rule wouldn't certainly hurt though.

EDIT: My bad, I misread your post, I certainly agree that using them in an offensive manner against fellow catholics is proposterous.

 

[iniudan]

So, what stops Catholics from having dozens of holy orders?

What stop everyone to have dozens of Holy Orders? Since any king and emperor can create one.

 

[qurat123]

Cool stuff, yet i have to ask again for a minor change i requested before:

Call knights in the military screen NOTABLE KNIGHTS instead. It's one single word yet stops me -and possibly other people, too - from having an aneurism. You also don't have the issue of the screen saying theres 300 knights and "oh yeah btw theres also 2 knights"...

PLEASE

Knights are, by definition, notable. They are granted their knighthood for special services to their liege. Those "300 knights" are Men at Arms, who are not knights. But I agree that it might be a bit confusing in case of the holy orders because their MaAs are named "Order Knights".

 

[Danir]

Cool stuff, yet i have to ask again for a minor change i requested before:

Call knights in the military screen NOTABLE KNIGHTS instead. It's one single word yet stops me -and possibly other people, too - from having an aneurism. You also don't have the issue of the screen saying theres 300 knights and "oh yeah btw theres also 2 knights"...

PLEASE

Distinguishing between notable knights (or some other name) and normal knights could actually be a nice way to prevent knight numbers being ahistorically low, which from what we have seen so far seems to be the case at the moment.