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CK3 Dev Diary #17 - Governments, Vassal Management, Laws, and Raiding

Good afternoon, everyone. I’m Magne “Meneth” Skjæran. You might know me from the CK2 dev diaries or the Paradox Wikis, but for the last couple of years I’ve been working on CK3 as a programmer. Today we’re going to cover a number of topics closely related to government types: governments themselves, vassal management, laws, and raiding.

Let's start off with a familiar concept from CK2: governments. For the player, we have three playable governments: Feudal, Tribal, and Clan, which each have some significant differences in how they play.

The Feudal government type is based on European feudalism, and is heavily based around the idea of obligations: you owe service to your liege, and your liege owes you protection in return. It is the most common government form in the game. Feudal realms play pretty similarly to CK2, focusing on claims and inheritance more so than the other government forms.

A new addition in CK3 is Feudal Contracts. Every feudal vassal (except barons) has an individual contract with you, rather than obligations being set realm-wide. These contracts have three levels; Low, Medium, and High, with Medium being the default. High will provide more levies and tax at the cost of an opinion hit, while Low provides less but improves opinion. Higher levels are usually better (though perhaps not if you’re at risk of your vassals revolting), but cannot be imposed unilaterally.

You’ll need to have a hook on your vassal in order to increase their obligations unless you’re fine with all your vassals considering you a tyrant, but you can always lower them. As a result this means you can significantly increase your power if you’re able to obtain hooks on your vassals; perhaps a bit of judicious blackmail might be in order?

Feudal Contract.png

[Modifying a Feudal Contract]

Furthermore we have the Clan government form. This government is the rough equivalent of the Iqta government in CK2, though in CK3 it does have a more Feudal bent than it did previously.

The Clan government type is used by most Muslim realms. This government puts more emphasis on the family rather than the realm, with most vassals being members of your dynasty. Obligations are heavily based on opinion rather than being contractual, with happy vassals providing significantly more taxes and levies than unhappy ones. A happy family is a powerful family.

Clan governments also have access to the Clan Invasion casus belli, which can be used once in a lifetime at the highest level of Fame to invade a kingdom, providing a powerful boon for a well-established clan ruler.

Finally we have Tribal realms. Much like in CK2 these have their own Tribal holding type, providing more troops but less tax. Additionally, most tribals are able to go on raids, which you can read more about below. Tribal realms are unaffected by development, and cause non-tribal realms to have lower supply limits in their lands, making them a tougher nut to crack, but reducing their influence as the years drag on. Tribal realms also pay for men at arms using prestige rather than gold, allowing smaller realms to punch above their weight.

Tribal rulers base their obligations on levels of Fame rather than on contracts or opinion; the more famous your ruler is, the more troops and money your vassals will be willing to provide for your pursuits.

Finally, Tribal rulers have a once-in-a-lifetime Subjugation casus belli, allowing them to forcibly vassalize an entire realm.

As the game goes on, you can eventually reform out of Tribalism, becoming a Clan or Feudal realm instead.

Vassal Overview.png

[The vassal management tab]

To get an easy overview of your realm, we in CK3 have the Realm screen. Let’s start with the Vassals tab of this screen where all your vassals are shown. This gives you a clear overview of where your levies and taxes come from, who might be a threat to you, and allows you to renegotiate feudal contracts.

This is also where you change your crown authority (or tribal authority), which I’ll talk more about later in this dev diary.

Lastly, the screen shows your Powerful Vassals. Much like in CK2’s Conclave DLC, your realm will have some powerful vassals; these expect to be seated on the council, and will make their displeasure known if that is not the case.

Domain overview.png

[The Domain Tab]

Then we have the Domain tab. This lets you easily inspect your domain, showing where you’re earning money and levies, and where you can build more buildings. It also shows the level of development and control in the counties you personally hold, letting you easily tell where you can make improvements.

Finally we have the Succession tab. Due to being a bit of a work in progress, I’m afraid I can’t show you a picture of it right now. Here you can change your succession laws, see your heir(s), and check what titles, if any, you will lose when you die. If you hold any elective titles, you’ll be able to easily get to the election screen from here.

Now with all these mentions of laws, let's go through what laws exist. We’ve trimmed down the number of laws from CK2 as much of what used to be law is handled on a more individual level now, but some still remains.

Like in CK2, we have crown authority for Feudal and Clan realms, and tribal authority for Tribal realms. Higher levels of authority unlock mechanics like imprisonment (for tribals, the others start with it), title revocation, restrictions on internal wars, and heir designation. However, increasing these levels will make your vassals unhappy. Tribal authority is significantly less powerful than crown authority, representing how Tribal governments over time gradually got supplanted by Feudal and Clan governments.

Succession Laws.png

[Changing succession law]

Then there’s succession laws. To no one’s surprise, Gavelkind is making a return, though we’ve renamed it to Partition to make it more obvious what it actually means. This is the default succession form of most realms in both 867 and 1066.

For added fun, there’s now three variants of Partition. We’ve got regular Partition, which functions like Gavelkind in CK2; your realm gets split roughly equally between your heirs, and any heirs that end up a lower tier than your primary heir becomes a vassal.

However, many realms start with a worse form, especially in 867. This is Confederate Partition, which will also create titles of your primary title’s tier if possible. So if you as Norway have conquered all of Sweden but destroyed the kingdom itself, it will get recreated on your death so that your second heir becomes an independent ruler. Tribals are typically locked to this succession type, with some exceptions.

Finally we have an improved version of Partition: High Partition. Under High Partition your primary heir will always get at least half your titles, so it doesn’t matter if you’ve got 2 or 10 kids; your primary heir will get the same amount of land.

We’ve also done a lot of tweaks to the internal logic of who gets what titles, which tends to lead to far nicer splits than in CK2; border gore will of course still happen, but to a lesser degree than before.

Then we have the other succession forms. There’s Oldest Child Succession (replacing Primogeniture), Youngest Child Succession (replacing Ultimogeniture), and House Seniority. A notable difference from CK2’s Seniority Succession is that under House Seniority, the oldest eligible member of your house inherits, not of your entire dynasty.

We also have a number of variants on elective succession, ranging from Feudal Elective, to Princely Elective (HRE succession), and a handful of cultural variants. Each of these have different restrictions on who can vote, who can be elected, and how the AI will select who to vote for.

Additionally, we’ve got a full suite of gender laws, corresponding to the gender laws in CK2. These are: Male Only, Male Preference, Equal, Female Preference, and Female Only.

Finally, we have raiding. If you’re a Norwegian like me, sometimes you feel your Viking blood coursing through your veins, the noise of it drowning out everything else. Times like this, there’s only one solution: go on a raid.

Fans of Pagan gameplay in CK2 will be glad to hear that not only have we implemented raiding in CK3 as well, we’ve made some improvements to it to make it more fun to play with, and less unfun to be on the receiving end of.

The core system is very similar to CK2. If you’re a Pagan or Tribal ruler, you have the ability to raid other rulers’ lands. To do so you raise a raid army, and march or sail over to your target. Only the Norse can raid across sea; other raid armies will simply be unable to embark.

Rally Point.png

[Raising a raid army]

Once at your target your army will start looting the barony they’re in. This is a pretty quick process, but during it your army will be unable to move, preventing you from running away from any counter-raiding force. This change makes it a lot simpler to deal with raiders if you’ve got enough men and can raise them quickly enough, as the AI won’t just immediately run away.

Raid Lindisfarne.png

[A raid in progress]

While in CK2 raiding was done on a county level, in CK3 it is on a barony level. Another difference is that in CK3 raiding no longer uses the siege mechanics directly, but rather a similar system where things like siege engines do not have an impact since you’re raiding the countryside, not a heavily fortified castle.

Another significant change is that if you beat a raid army, you receive all the gold they’re carrying. This means that even if you cannot respond instantly to a raid, it is still very much worth it to beat up the raiders. Like in CK2, you also become immune to raiding by that enemy for several years.

Just like in CK2, a raid army is limited in how much loot it can carry based on the army size. Loot is deposited once the army is back in friendly lands, after which you might either disband or go raiding once more.

On the quality of life side, we now show on the map what provinces have already been raided when you have a raid army selected. This makes it easy to see what places to avoid. Hovering over a province will also tell you how much loot raiding it would provide.

Raid.png

[Northern England in its natural state]

That’s all for today, folks. Tune in next week to learn more about how war functions in Crusader Kings 3.
 
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Denkt

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Conversely, western states became more bureaucratic in the late period and of course you had eg Sicily, which was its own kettle of fish (Italy really was a bit of a mess, you had "feudal" systems like the southern lombard duchies but also the Byzantines, Arabs, Norman's, Pope, Venice, Milan, etc.)
Yes there are many issues with strict government type and no laws whatsoever other than Crown authority. It is a big downgrade from CK2 law system, it is basically back to release version of CK2 and who know why?

In fact I find it interesting that hardly nobody seems to care about this massive downgrade of a system that actually worked in CK2.
 

Spaninq

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Yes there are many issues with strict government type and no laws whatsoever other than Crown authority. It is a big downgrade from CK2 law system, it is basically back to release version of CK2 and who know why?

In fact I find it interesting that hardly nobody seems to care about this massive downgrade of a system that actually worked in CK2.
Maybe because you haven't actually played CK2 enough to know that the game ran for years without Conclave's law changes, or that individual subject-vassal contracts are a good upgrade to CK2's law system. You yourself said in a post to a previous dev diary that you haven't played very much CK2.

As for hardly anybody seeming to care, you didn't actually read half the posts in this thread, which did care, very deeply, about how it's reverting to pre-Conclave laws, albeit on an individual contract basis. Furthermore, they were even more upset when they learned that there could be only one toggle for subject-vassal interactions, even with mods.
 

Bearnest

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Err, I'm aware? I'm saying that in the text description, it swaps between the defined and linked term "Eligible Children" and "children."
Sorry, I think I got a little carried away by the wording of the first half of your post. I also think "children" stands for the aforementiomed "Eligible Children", though at first I didn't think of minors, but bastards (these are, of course, NOT Eligible Children).
 

Denkt

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Maybe because you haven't actually played CK2 enough to know that the game ran for years without Conclave's law changes, or that individual subject-vassal contracts are a good upgrade to CK2's law system. You yourself said in a post to a previous dev diary that you haven't played very much CK2.
I very well know that, but the individual contracts right now only seems to apply to levy and tax, which is quite lackluster. Also stuff like title revocation is now based on Crown authority instead of being its own laws like it is in the latest version of CK2.
 

Undead Martyr

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For a hypothetical imperial government-
Have great families with estates a la Merchant republics.
In addition to normal holdings/vassals (bishops, cities, barons etc) there are a unique "imperial demesne" provinces. Any land inherited by the emperor or revoked from a non imperial (say a vassalzed feudal king) becomes part of the demesne. Aside from the capital all Imperial demesne provinces must be administered by an imperial viceroy- and these can be created, altered, etc at will a la stellaris sectors.

Armies are raised on a viceroyal level and will either be commanded by the viceroy or a separate official (depends on government laws). Both types of offices are automatically considered powerful vassals.
 
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Massinissa

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Right now, there's no distance restriction on where you can raid, but you will run into attrition if you go more than one county away from your own borders.
Maybe losing 5-10% of your raiders is worth it to do that; right now it's a choice you can make.
You'll get attrition even if you go one county away from your border, pillage that county (and take all the low perishable food), and go to the next ?
 

starkwolf

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Actually, going back to something I posted before, I think instead of requiring a hook to avoid incurring tyranny when increasing a vassal's obligations, a favor should work just as well (and iirc this game also has a favor system). If you pull a vassal out of a hard spot, you should be able to reasonably expect they owe you more. If you are friends, even better.
 

Red Death

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Levies are taken from the vassals themselves, unlike CK2's magical troops. This means that vassals will get visibly stronger/weaker based on the contract they have and that civil wars are MUCH more dangerous as the Vassals instantly get all their contractually obligated levies returned.

I do want to say this is an amazing change, easily one of my biggest problems with CK2.
 

Silversweeeper

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They are fully moddable for release yes.

In the same main ways as in CK2 (elector selection, voter strength, candidate scoring, and candidate selection)?
 

Aszhalinde

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Things I like:

1) Feudal contracts with individual vassals. The implementation is too shallow, but the idea is a step in the right direction.
2) More gavelkind granularity, better logic (though still missing player agency...)

This diary was disappointing to me for the following reasons:

1) Most of this just looks like copy and paste of CK2 mechanics with features removed or dumbed down. It looks boring. Not only have I already played this game, it looks like a worse version of it.
2) IMO, you guys should be adding laws and granularity, not removing them. The law game in CK2 was already super simplistic. Not only is your implementation of laws not a step forward, it looks like an active step backward.
3) Individual feudal contracts could be great fun. But the way you have it implemented just makes it seem like a single button you might click, once a generation. Clicking a single button once in a blue moon is not compelling gameplay. It needs far more depth and more contractual options to do it justice. Taxes and amount of levies of course, but also amount of knights, inheritance rights and duties, religious rights and duties, length of time liege can legally keep levies raised, education of children, marry my family, don't marry my rival's family, don't declare war on my other vassals, don't declare war at all, expectation of lavish dinner parties, etc.
4) Replacing actual real terms like "primogeniture." Non-medieval scholars playing CK2 for the first time literally learned what it was mousing over it, why do you assume new players are too stupid to do that? It seems a little insulting to new and returning players alike. Partition; fine, gavelkind is a regional term. But the others? Come on. Don't do that.
5) Still no player agency on gavelkind/partition. Partition would be a lot more fun if I could actually pick which kid gets what. It would still be an extremely weak government form, but I might actually play under it some of the time if I actually had some say in how it functioned. You know, like a real ruler! :)
6) I'm already looking forward to a mod that condenses all these huge UI windows and removes all the empty space in them.

This is one of the first diaries I've been disappointed in. The game itself looks great, keep up the good work.
 

Denkt

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It would still be an extremely weak government form,
That is probably not true since if you spread your dynasty, which is something gavelkind is good at, your dynasty will get more splendor which is a thing added to CK3 and thus become more powerful. Thus unlike CK2, CK3 rewards you from not controlling Everything yourself and thus also encourage you to use gavelkind more than you would maybe use it in CK2.

Another thing that could make it very good is that it probably will prevent pretenders from reaching other more powerful realms so it may add a level of security.
 

Denkt

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I'm not sure partition is actually stronger at that. All it does it divide the lands you already conquered. Nothing new is going to your dynasty.
You will gain renown for every ruler of your Dynasty that isn’t a subject under another member of your Dynasty, this mean especially confederated partition can be quite effective at increasing your dynasty renown. It is not about how much land each member Control, it is more about how many members your dynasty have that are independent from each other, which probably is basically the same thing as how many houses your dynasty have, Assuming the ai create houses when it can. Also pretenders can know move to other Courts, so if you don't land which I assume stop them from becoming Wanderers, you can risk getting attacked by a more powerful realm if they feel they should press the claim of the pretender.
So what is Renown?
Renown is a resource accumulated by a Dynasty, and is used for several things. Firstly, all renown earned by a Dynasty counts towards its Level of Splendor. The Level of Splendor is the outward perception of the Dynasty, how well it is perceived in the eyes of the world, and affects the prestige you get on birth, the prestige when marrying into it, and the maximum long reign opinion you can get. Having a high level also makes it much easier to arrange marriages, especially with Dynasties below your level. Regardless of if Renown is spent or not, the Level of Splendor won’t decrease. The higher your Dynasty’s Level of Splendor, the more impressive its Coat of Arms frame will look. Peasant Dynasties will start at a negative Splendor level, which means that you’ll actually lose prestige for marrying them.

Renown itself is a spendable currency, representing the clout your Dynasty holds over itself. Its use is twofold; firstly it can be used for the most powerful Dynast interactions (getting claims, disinheriting, etc.) and secondly for unlocking Dynasty Legacies (more on this below).

The way you get Renown encourages you to mimic a ‘playstyle’ that was common in reality, but that wasn’t very practical in CK2 - spreading your Dynasty far and wide! You will gain renown for every ruler of your Dynasty that isn’t a subject under another member of your Dynasty. This is based on tier, which means that a King will give more Renown than a Duke, and so on. Marrying in such a way that your Dynasty ends up on the throne of a foreign realm is therefore useful for other reasons than to just murder them until you inherit their lands. Having your Dynasty spread out will give you more Renown, and thus a more powerful Dynasty overall. For example, if you’re playing as the King of England you will NOT gain renown from your landed vassal brother, but you WILL gain renown from your Dynastic cousin ruling a Duchy in the Holy Roman Empire. You will also gain renown from marrying away your dynasty to be spouses of powerful rulers, symbolizing your newfound influence in their realms. This gives you a reason to carefully plan the marriages of your kinsmen, even if you are not in need of an alliance!
 

Denkt

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Okay, but if I want my brother to be the King of Sweden, I can still do that with primogeniture.
Well we actually don't know how granting titles and creating them will work yet, and you would likely have to pay to create the kingdom of sweden while confederated partition would do it for free. Also it seems like the vassal get postive opinion for partition which can probably come quite handy at times. Overall it seems like the succession laws will probably be more balanced compared to CK2.

There could Obviously be more to the succession law and reasons why or why not you would use a certain succession law over the others. Especially if succesion laws affect pretenders claims, for example single heir could maybe given better claims for the pretenders than multiple heirs, like in CK2, maybe it would be the difference between pretenders with strong claims and weak claims.

Another thing with the multiple heirs it is not clear if the oldest Child is the heir, the text say the Child that get the primary title of the dead ruler is the heir, if you get to pick which Child get the primary title would add Another reason to go with partition, since you can simply select the best Child without the annoyance of election.
 
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Ashlantean

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It's clear that CKIII is going to be a slightly different beast to its predecessor and that's okay. Struggling to get too exercised by these dev diaries either way because all that matters is how CKIII feels and hangs together as whole at the end. Simply looking forward to release and getting the chance to experience and try it all out for myself!
 

Denkt

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It is interesting to see how CK3 will balance the succession laws, as a strategy game it need some sort of balance otherwise it is simply a rush to the best succession law and stay that for the rest of the game which is not strategic by any means. I suspect balance will be something like this:

Elective succession: Advantages: Very liked by vassals and allow you to pick your heir if you can Control the election.
Drawbacks: Probably disliked by your dynasty and risk of losing your titles.

One Heir: Advantages: Very safe
Drawbacks: Probably quite disliked by everyone expect the heir

Multiple Heirs: Advantages: Probably more liked than one heir while safer than elective
Drawbacks: High risk of losing atleast some titles
 

Aszhalinde

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Well we actually don't know how granting titles and creating them will work yet, and you would likely have to pay to create the kingdom of sweden while confederated partition would do it for free. Also it seems like the vassal get postive opinion for partition which can probably come quite handy at times. Overall it seems like the succession laws will probably be more balanced compared to CK2.

There could Obviously be more to the succession law and reasons why or why not you would use a certain succession law over the others. Especially if succesion laws affect pretenders claims, for example single heir could maybe given better claims for the pretenders than multiple heirs, like in CK2, maybe it would be the difference between pretenders with strong claims and weak claims.

Another thing with the multiple heirs it is not clear if the oldest Child is the heir, the text say the Child that get the primary title of the dead ruler is the heir, if you get to pick which Child get the primary title would add Another reason to go with partition, since you can simply select the best Child without the annoyance of election.

Fair points