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CK3 Dev Diary #17 - Governments, Vassal Management, Laws, and Raiding

Good afternoon, everyone. I’m Magne “Meneth” Skjæran. You might know me from the CK2 dev diaries or the Paradox Wikis, but for the last couple of years I’ve been working on CK3 as a programmer. Today we’re going to cover a number of topics closely related to government types: governments themselves, vassal management, laws, and raiding.

Let's start off with a familiar concept from CK2: governments. For the player, we have three playable governments: Feudal, Tribal, and Clan, which each have some significant differences in how they play.

The Feudal government type is based on European feudalism, and is heavily based around the idea of obligations: you owe service to your liege, and your liege owes you protection in return. It is the most common government form in the game. Feudal realms play pretty similarly to CK2, focusing on claims and inheritance more so than the other government forms.

A new addition in CK3 is Feudal Contracts. Every feudal vassal (except barons) has an individual contract with you, rather than obligations being set realm-wide. These contracts have three levels; Low, Medium, and High, with Medium being the default. High will provide more levies and tax at the cost of an opinion hit, while Low provides less but improves opinion. Higher levels are usually better (though perhaps not if you’re at risk of your vassals revolting), but cannot be imposed unilaterally.

You’ll need to have a hook on your vassal in order to increase their obligations unless you’re fine with all your vassals considering you a tyrant, but you can always lower them. As a result this means you can significantly increase your power if you’re able to obtain hooks on your vassals; perhaps a bit of judicious blackmail might be in order?

Feudal Contract.png

[Modifying a Feudal Contract]

Furthermore we have the Clan government form. This government is the rough equivalent of the Iqta government in CK2, though in CK3 it does have a more Feudal bent than it did previously.

The Clan government type is used by most Muslim realms. This government puts more emphasis on the family rather than the realm, with most vassals being members of your dynasty. Obligations are heavily based on opinion rather than being contractual, with happy vassals providing significantly more taxes and levies than unhappy ones. A happy family is a powerful family.

Clan governments also have access to the Clan Invasion casus belli, which can be used once in a lifetime at the highest level of Fame to invade a kingdom, providing a powerful boon for a well-established clan ruler.

Finally we have Tribal realms. Much like in CK2 these have their own Tribal holding type, providing more troops but less tax. Additionally, most tribals are able to go on raids, which you can read more about below. Tribal realms are unaffected by development, and cause non-tribal realms to have lower supply limits in their lands, making them a tougher nut to crack, but reducing their influence as the years drag on. Tribal realms also pay for men at arms using prestige rather than gold, allowing smaller realms to punch above their weight.

Tribal rulers base their obligations on levels of Fame rather than on contracts or opinion; the more famous your ruler is, the more troops and money your vassals will be willing to provide for your pursuits.

Finally, Tribal rulers have a once-in-a-lifetime Subjugation casus belli, allowing them to forcibly vassalize an entire realm.

As the game goes on, you can eventually reform out of Tribalism, becoming a Clan or Feudal realm instead.

Vassal Overview.png

[The vassal management tab]

To get an easy overview of your realm, we in CK3 have the Realm screen. Let’s start with the Vassals tab of this screen where all your vassals are shown. This gives you a clear overview of where your levies and taxes come from, who might be a threat to you, and allows you to renegotiate feudal contracts.

This is also where you change your crown authority (or tribal authority), which I’ll talk more about later in this dev diary.

Lastly, the screen shows your Powerful Vassals. Much like in CK2’s Conclave DLC, your realm will have some powerful vassals; these expect to be seated on the council, and will make their displeasure known if that is not the case.

Domain overview.png

[The Domain Tab]

Then we have the Domain tab. This lets you easily inspect your domain, showing where you’re earning money and levies, and where you can build more buildings. It also shows the level of development and control in the counties you personally hold, letting you easily tell where you can make improvements.

Finally we have the Succession tab. Due to being a bit of a work in progress, I’m afraid I can’t show you a picture of it right now. Here you can change your succession laws, see your heir(s), and check what titles, if any, you will lose when you die. If you hold any elective titles, you’ll be able to easily get to the election screen from here.

Now with all these mentions of laws, let's go through what laws exist. We’ve trimmed down the number of laws from CK2 as much of what used to be law is handled on a more individual level now, but some still remains.

Like in CK2, we have crown authority for Feudal and Clan realms, and tribal authority for Tribal realms. Higher levels of authority unlock mechanics like imprisonment (for tribals, the others start with it), title revocation, restrictions on internal wars, and heir designation. However, increasing these levels will make your vassals unhappy. Tribal authority is significantly less powerful than crown authority, representing how Tribal governments over time gradually got supplanted by Feudal and Clan governments.

Succession Laws.png

[Changing succession law]

Then there’s succession laws. To no one’s surprise, Gavelkind is making a return, though we’ve renamed it to Partition to make it more obvious what it actually means. This is the default succession form of most realms in both 867 and 1066.

For added fun, there’s now three variants of Partition. We’ve got regular Partition, which functions like Gavelkind in CK2; your realm gets split roughly equally between your heirs, and any heirs that end up a lower tier than your primary heir becomes a vassal.

However, many realms start with a worse form, especially in 867. This is Confederate Partition, which will also create titles of your primary title’s tier if possible. So if you as Norway have conquered all of Sweden but destroyed the kingdom itself, it will get recreated on your death so that your second heir becomes an independent ruler. Tribals are typically locked to this succession type, with some exceptions.

Finally we have an improved version of Partition: High Partition. Under High Partition your primary heir will always get at least half your titles, so it doesn’t matter if you’ve got 2 or 10 kids; your primary heir will get the same amount of land.

We’ve also done a lot of tweaks to the internal logic of who gets what titles, which tends to lead to far nicer splits than in CK2; border gore will of course still happen, but to a lesser degree than before.

Then we have the other succession forms. There’s Oldest Child Succession (replacing Primogeniture), Youngest Child Succession (replacing Ultimogeniture), and House Seniority. A notable difference from CK2’s Seniority Succession is that under House Seniority, the oldest eligible member of your house inherits, not of your entire dynasty.

We also have a number of variants on elective succession, ranging from Feudal Elective, to Princely Elective (HRE succession), and a handful of cultural variants. Each of these have different restrictions on who can vote, who can be elected, and how the AI will select who to vote for.

Additionally, we’ve got a full suite of gender laws, corresponding to the gender laws in CK2. These are: Male Only, Male Preference, Equal, Female Preference, and Female Only.

Finally, we have raiding. If you’re a Norwegian like me, sometimes you feel your Viking blood coursing through your veins, the noise of it drowning out everything else. Times like this, there’s only one solution: go on a raid.

Fans of Pagan gameplay in CK2 will be glad to hear that not only have we implemented raiding in CK3 as well, we’ve made some improvements to it to make it more fun to play with, and less unfun to be on the receiving end of.

The core system is very similar to CK2. If you’re a Pagan or Tribal ruler, you have the ability to raid other rulers’ lands. To do so you raise a raid army, and march or sail over to your target. Only the Norse can raid across sea; other raid armies will simply be unable to embark.

Rally Point.png

[Raising a raid army]

Once at your target your army will start looting the barony they’re in. This is a pretty quick process, but during it your army will be unable to move, preventing you from running away from any counter-raiding force. This change makes it a lot simpler to deal with raiders if you’ve got enough men and can raise them quickly enough, as the AI won’t just immediately run away.

Raid Lindisfarne.png

[A raid in progress]

While in CK2 raiding was done on a county level, in CK3 it is on a barony level. Another difference is that in CK3 raiding no longer uses the siege mechanics directly, but rather a similar system where things like siege engines do not have an impact since you’re raiding the countryside, not a heavily fortified castle.

Another significant change is that if you beat a raid army, you receive all the gold they’re carrying. This means that even if you cannot respond instantly to a raid, it is still very much worth it to beat up the raiders. Like in CK2, you also become immune to raiding by that enemy for several years.

Just like in CK2, a raid army is limited in how much loot it can carry based on the army size. Loot is deposited once the army is back in friendly lands, after which you might either disband or go raiding once more.

On the quality of life side, we now show on the map what provinces have already been raided when you have a raid army selected. This makes it easy to see what places to avoid. Hovering over a province will also tell you how much loot raiding it would provide.

Raid.png

[Northern England in its natural state]

That’s all for today, folks. Tune in next week to learn more about how war functions in Crusader Kings 3.
 
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elvain

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Well... if so, they wouldn't have added raids to North Africans in Imperator : Rome
How much does Imperator: Rome reflect medieval world really?

Are you sure that pre-Islamic North Africans were the same as the Berbers of Islamic period?

After years of studing Berber history I have learned that they were very different and as far as I hsve learned, that medieval Berbers did not do frequent naval raids.
EDIT: But apparently I haven't learned enough and they did raid also in medieval period... so feel free to ignore what I am writing here, although the map below is still interesting to be seen. /edit

The Arabs of the early caliphate did, yes (that's part of my original answer/question).
Even Berber medieval dynasties did build navies. The Almohads did built impressive navy in mid 12th century and used it to fight Banu Ghaniya, who conquered the Balearic islands and used it as base for their attacks against Almohad coastal dominions.
But they didn't do large-scale and long-term raids like the Norse.

Lets not forget the Berbers raided Rome in 846.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_raid_against_Rome
Berbers?
Aghabids were Arabs, not Berbers.
As I wrote, yes there were numerous "Moorish" (meaning mainly Arab) naval raids against Christian Mediterrean coast in the period of expansion of the Caliphate and slightly after that. But once the Muslim power was established in the late 8th century, the raids have virtually stoped - by the mid 9th century. Well, there were a few exceptions, but they don't really make it reasonable to give the Berbers such a tool... especially when it wasn't the Berbers, but Arabs, who did the raids.
Maghreb-Muslim_conquest.jpg
Even the Muslim raiders of Fraixnet who frustrated the Alpine regions well into the 10th century didn't do naval, but land-based raids.

Anyway, if someone is to get the raiding possibility, it should be the Arabs, not Berbers
 
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lazprune

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As we've said in other responses in this dev diary, we hear you all, we get there are things with this system that are disliked by our hardcore fans after seeing your responses. But we also want to have actual constructive feedback we can take as action points for the future, what in the system makes it feel bad?

Is it the different government types playing differently? Or not differently enough? What differences or similarities would you like to see?

We are unlikely to do any big changes before release to systems as the fact of the matter is we have limited time until then and almost all of that already has plans for what to do in it. We don't develop by picking the next focus point based on dev diary feedback, that just isn't feasible to plan for in any way.

But we can promise to look into this more for changes in the future, especially if we have a concrete idea of specific things that the community dislikes so we have targeted improvements instead of more generic things.

Sure you are right, feedback should be constructive.
I'm certainly not the only one who has made a thread about (among other things) how governments could be fully revamped and done better (signature). Almost all of those huge threads written by consumers at least implicitly advocated for a more universal basis than European feudalism for the various governments. CK3 team chose to keep the original design, ok fine. But then old issues remain, and you can't say there is no constructive feedback when people literally write tons of paragraphs on how to improve this feature.
For instance, Byzantium is the favorite player faction in the game, yet it got a government overhaul in Holy Fury, years after release and LoR. With CK2's limitations. And now what? A new game, and we are back to French feudalism only because "that's the focus of the game"?
It's really not difficult to understand why some may be upset.

I know you guys have deadlines and other issues to worry about, so don't take that as an attack or anything hostile. It's just feedback.
Have a nice day.
 
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Dayvit78

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What about if we want to designate which heir gets what? For example, William I the Conqueror. He did not get along with his oldest son Robert so he gave the Kingdom of England to his second son William Rufus, who became William II, and Robert became the Duke of Normandy. William I's youngest son Henry, who eventually became Henry I, didn't get any land but was given money instead. What if we wanted to do something like that? Also, Robert tried both against William Rufus and Henry I to conquer England but failed. In the end he lost to Henry and was imprisoned for the rest of his life.

So why can we not designate heirs? There could be a mechanic where your vassals can approve of your choice and support the succession or not. Also if a son is ambitious and you give him a lesser title (like William I's son Robert) he could start wars to gain the title. That would be far closer to the way it was historically.
I second this.
All you would have to do is add some functionality to the heir screen. You can designate which titles go to which heir using a sort of warscore to ensure it's balanced per the succession law. Once made, you cannot change it except through the council vote. When a new title is made, you specify at that time who it will go to.
(The AI can act as normal)
Is this doable Paradox??
 

Spaninq

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@blackninja9939 You want ideas? My friend (that mostly stays away from the forums, so I'm posting it in his place) had some very interesting ideas yesterday. I've bleeped the small amount of swearing and the criticism isn't toxic. This was a discussion between him and another member of our little CK2 Multiplayer group.
upload_2020-3-11_9-16-23.png
 

Xain

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To add to this I think there is a lot of potential to create some nice flavor with contracts, Dhimmi contracts where a non Muslim vassal can agree to a much steeper tax in return for no being actively converted or persecuted without just cause, elector count contracts for the HRE, marcher lords, prince bishoprics, free cities! As I understand the system it appears to me to have far more potential than what has been shown in the DD.

I do totally agree with this post. I think that the main disappointment with the Contract dynamic is that I holds so much more potential than just a "low/medium/high" contract power slider.

This is of course not my only concern about the final game, and I think I voiced it every time (for locked baronies, the reduction of counties, etc...). And I understand that players can be disappointed by ERE non having its own dynamic (I am mostly a "western" player so I do not feel the issue as strongly).
But I've seen so many improvement already (and we're only in DD17!) that I really do not understand people talking of a botched game.

Of course, not everything can be done at release, and that development choices have to be taken and they can not satisfy every single player and fit every single playing style. I take your willingness to listen and improve at face value, and I feel already very satisfied with that.

Who cares if I have to wait for a patch or a DLC to see x implemented! I'd still buy the game as soon as preorders open anyway.
 
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Farabi

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I'm glad that CK3 looks to be leaning toward giving some love to Muslim governments, away from the rather minimal system we got in CK2 (let's dance on the grave of having Turkish Succession in 867). However, I share the concerns regarding the Byzantine Empire, and this DD seems to be an indication that the mechanics of 'Abbasid government and Mamluk succession might have to be modded in or added later.
 

InvisibleBison

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Lastly, the screen shows your Powerful Vassals. Much like in CK2’s Conclave DLC, your realm will have some powerful vassals; these expect to be seated on the council, and will make their displeasure known if that is not the case.
Well, this is disappointing, if not unexpected. I refrained from buying Conclave because I dislike the council mechanics it introduced, and if they're baked into the base game of CK3 I shan't be buying it either.
 
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Alfray Stryke

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Well, this is disappointing, if not unexpected. I refrained from buying Conclave because I dislike the council mechanics it introduced, and if they're baked into the base game of CK3 I shan't be buying it either.

If I may ask, why didn't you like them? I found they were one of the highlights of the game.
 
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deep042

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To get an easy overview of your realm, we in CK3 have the Realm screen. Let’s start with the Vassals tab of this screen where all your vassals are shown. This gives you a clear overview of where your levies and taxes come from, who might be a threat to you, and allows you to renegotiate feudal contracts.
The Vassals tab shown in the screenshot looks really nice, but with many vassals I fear a "scroll orgy". So I think, it would be a good idea (may be for other views as well), if the Vassals tab could be toggled, so that we could have a grid view with only one line per vassal, too. There is not so much data per Vassal (the protrait could be omittest) that it would prevent to display it in one line. In such a grid view it would also be easy to sort by column just by clicking on a column header.
 
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Pied-Noir

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The Vassals tab shown in the screenshot looks really nice, but with many vassals I fear a "scroll orgy". So I think, it would be a good idea (may be for other views as well), if the Vassals tab could be toogled, so that we could have a grid view with only one line per vassal, too. There is not so much data per Vassal (the protrait could be omittest) that it would prevent to display it in one line. In such a grid view it would also be easy to sort by column just by clicking on a column header.
I'd much rather have a row of tabs with the vassal's name and primary title (with the title's CoA) than those big ugly 3D portraits. It would look better, save space and make identifying people easier at a glance.
 

Andrzej I

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Is it the vassal contracts themselves being on character level instead of realm level?
Is it not enough options in the contracts? What sort of options would you like to see?
Is it the different government types playing differently? Or not differently enough? What differences or similarities would you like to see?
a) Not in the slightest! The fact that contracts are on a per-character basis rather than universal within the realm is a tremendous change! It's elements like this, improving upon Crusader Kings in ways that CK2's hard code prevented, that makes CK3 such an exciting project!

b) This is entirely the key. Fact of the matter is, these contracts seem to merely be a retooling of vassal obligations from CK2, detailing how much in taxes and levies a vassal must provide to one's liege. From prior dev diaries, with remarks about vassals being able to negotiate their contracts, I was led to think that there would be more elements to negotiate over, rather than one scale with only three steps, which is simple even compared to CK2's realm laws. Breaking the contract into separate levy and tax scales would be a start. Others have posted ideas from CK2 that may not have been carried over into CK3, such as perhaps permission for wars, allowing external inheritance, etc. which would work well as various elements of the feudal contract a vassal could negotiate over. Then again, I suppose some of these were folded into crown authority, complicating the matter a little. Perhaps crown authority could engable these elements of the feudal contracts to give more centralized power (ex. higher crown authority enabling one to prevent vassal wars)?

c) For governments, I'd definitely like to see differences between the various forms. It is these differences that give life to the diverse regions the game covers. As such, it does feel a touch strange to have, for example, the Celts given the Clan form of government, sharing it with the Muslim realms. We also do not know what India will look like, though since there are only three forms of government on release, it will be shared with either the Muslim realms or the European ones. This can be addressed with DLC and patches, but with all the development that went into CK3, I suppose it is, again, a little underwhelming to see that the government forms are similar to those of CK2. Though others have posted ideas on how to provide more variation for forms of government, I'll try and brainstorm some as well. Ideally, also, I'd love to see the possibility of shifting into more blended forms of government. Perhaps your Norman realm in Southern Italy conquers a fair bit of Muslim territory, and finding elements of the Clan government to your liking, you could replace some of your Feudal elements with Clan ones. Just a quick idea!
 

diskoerekto

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unhappy to see nomadic goverment not being there, because it was quite different than tribes and was fun to play

also, I'd love to see a start date around 550-700 for giving a hypothetical julian the apostate kind a real chance when remains of a pagan rome was still not completely wiped out by christians
 

Red_warning

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I don't see the point of changing gavelkind's name to "partition", using the real words for all the various medieval concepts in CK added a lot of RP-value and authenticity of the game. Don't assume people are stupid, I had never heard of gavelkind before playing CKII and I just used the tooltip and wikipedia.

I understand this might be a bit nitpicky but I think changes like these add up in the long run and might change the tone of the game in a negative way.
 
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Lordy's

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I don't see the point of changing gavelkind's name to "partition", using the real words for all the various medieval concepts in CK added a lot of RP-value and authenticity of the game. Don't assume people are stupid, I had never heard of gavelkind before playing CKII and I just used the tooltip and wikipedia.

I understand this might be a bit nitpicky but I think changes like these add up in the long run and might change the tone of the game in a negative way.
Not only is 'partition' easier to grasp for new players, but also the succession law is applied to all realms from island to india. While in some regions it was called gavelkind, that's not true for many of them. Same for primogeniture/ultimogeniture - that seems to be the wrong name for realms with no connections to the latin language.

The Vassals tab shown in the screenshot looks really nice, but with many vassals I fear a "scroll orgy". So I think, it would be a good idea (may be for other views as well), if the Vassals tab could be toggled, so that we could have a grid view with only one line per vassal, too. There is not so much data per Vassal (the protrait could be omittest) that it would prevent to display it in one line. In such a grid view it would also be easy to sort by column just by clicking on a column header.
Agree with that. Or the portrait could at least be much smaller.
 

Red_warning

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Not only is 'partition' easier to grasp for new players, but also the succession law is applied to all realms from island to india. While in some regions it was called gavelkind, that's not true for many of them. Same for primogeniture/ultimogeniture - that seems to be the wrong name for realms with no connections to the latin language.

Except "gavelkind" is not latin, it's just an English word for a kind of inheritance that is out of fashion today.
 
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Serenity84

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I don't see the point of changing gavelkind's name to "partition", using the real words for all the various medieval concepts in CK added a lot of RP-value and authenticity of the game
Gavelkind specifically was mostly an English/Welsh/Irish thing. Similar systems existed elsewhere, but they weren't called that. So a different name is fine. Renaming primogeniture and agnatic/cognatic is bad though. Those terms are used very universally even today
 

Red_warning

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Gavelkind specifically was mostly an English/Welsh/Irish thing. Similar systems existed elsewhere, but they weren't called that. So a different name is fine. Renaming primogeniture and agnatic/cognatic is bad though. Those terms are used very universally even today

Unless we're getting culture specific names for laws then it's kinda irrelevant what these inheritance systems were called in various languages. What I'm getting at is that gavelkind is the English word for this kind of system, it's basically synonymous to "partition" except that it has the benefit of being contemporary.
 

masterui

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Gotta be honest, those inheritance laws are just as goddamn awful as the CK2 ones.
I mean, William the conqueror split his lands however he wanted in his will! He gave the Kigndom of England to his second son, the Duchy of Normandy to his first and money to the third.
The fact that we can't replicate this in the game and instead we have random Gavelkind AGAIN is incredibly shortsighted.

Also, is there no Imperial government for the Eastern Romans? You guys could just slightly mod that "Contract" mechanics in a way to reflect the Byzantine land leases.
Bah... I guess I will wait and see how this comes out.