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CK3 Dev Diary #17 - Governments, Vassal Management, Laws, and Raiding

Good afternoon, everyone. I’m Magne “Meneth” Skjæran. You might know me from the CK2 dev diaries or the Paradox Wikis, but for the last couple of years I’ve been working on CK3 as a programmer. Today we’re going to cover a number of topics closely related to government types: governments themselves, vassal management, laws, and raiding.

Let's start off with a familiar concept from CK2: governments. For the player, we have three playable governments: Feudal, Tribal, and Clan, which each have some significant differences in how they play.

The Feudal government type is based on European feudalism, and is heavily based around the idea of obligations: you owe service to your liege, and your liege owes you protection in return. It is the most common government form in the game. Feudal realms play pretty similarly to CK2, focusing on claims and inheritance more so than the other government forms.

A new addition in CK3 is Feudal Contracts. Every feudal vassal (except barons) has an individual contract with you, rather than obligations being set realm-wide. These contracts have three levels; Low, Medium, and High, with Medium being the default. High will provide more levies and tax at the cost of an opinion hit, while Low provides less but improves opinion. Higher levels are usually better (though perhaps not if you’re at risk of your vassals revolting), but cannot be imposed unilaterally.

You’ll need to have a hook on your vassal in order to increase their obligations unless you’re fine with all your vassals considering you a tyrant, but you can always lower them. As a result this means you can significantly increase your power if you’re able to obtain hooks on your vassals; perhaps a bit of judicious blackmail might be in order?

Feudal Contract.png

[Modifying a Feudal Contract]

Furthermore we have the Clan government form. This government is the rough equivalent of the Iqta government in CK2, though in CK3 it does have a more Feudal bent than it did previously.

The Clan government type is used by most Muslim realms. This government puts more emphasis on the family rather than the realm, with most vassals being members of your dynasty. Obligations are heavily based on opinion rather than being contractual, with happy vassals providing significantly more taxes and levies than unhappy ones. A happy family is a powerful family.

Clan governments also have access to the Clan Invasion casus belli, which can be used once in a lifetime at the highest level of Fame to invade a kingdom, providing a powerful boon for a well-established clan ruler.

Finally we have Tribal realms. Much like in CK2 these have their own Tribal holding type, providing more troops but less tax. Additionally, most tribals are able to go on raids, which you can read more about below. Tribal realms are unaffected by development, and cause non-tribal realms to have lower supply limits in their lands, making them a tougher nut to crack, but reducing their influence as the years drag on. Tribal realms also pay for men at arms using prestige rather than gold, allowing smaller realms to punch above their weight.

Tribal rulers base their obligations on levels of Fame rather than on contracts or opinion; the more famous your ruler is, the more troops and money your vassals will be willing to provide for your pursuits.

Finally, Tribal rulers have a once-in-a-lifetime Subjugation casus belli, allowing them to forcibly vassalize an entire realm.

As the game goes on, you can eventually reform out of Tribalism, becoming a Clan or Feudal realm instead.

Vassal Overview.png

[The vassal management tab]

To get an easy overview of your realm, we in CK3 have the Realm screen. Let’s start with the Vassals tab of this screen where all your vassals are shown. This gives you a clear overview of where your levies and taxes come from, who might be a threat to you, and allows you to renegotiate feudal contracts.

This is also where you change your crown authority (or tribal authority), which I’ll talk more about later in this dev diary.

Lastly, the screen shows your Powerful Vassals. Much like in CK2’s Conclave DLC, your realm will have some powerful vassals; these expect to be seated on the council, and will make their displeasure known if that is not the case.

Domain overview.png

[The Domain Tab]

Then we have the Domain tab. This lets you easily inspect your domain, showing where you’re earning money and levies, and where you can build more buildings. It also shows the level of development and control in the counties you personally hold, letting you easily tell where you can make improvements.

Finally we have the Succession tab. Due to being a bit of a work in progress, I’m afraid I can’t show you a picture of it right now. Here you can change your succession laws, see your heir(s), and check what titles, if any, you will lose when you die. If you hold any elective titles, you’ll be able to easily get to the election screen from here.

Now with all these mentions of laws, let's go through what laws exist. We’ve trimmed down the number of laws from CK2 as much of what used to be law is handled on a more individual level now, but some still remains.

Like in CK2, we have crown authority for Feudal and Clan realms, and tribal authority for Tribal realms. Higher levels of authority unlock mechanics like imprisonment (for tribals, the others start with it), title revocation, restrictions on internal wars, and heir designation. However, increasing these levels will make your vassals unhappy. Tribal authority is significantly less powerful than crown authority, representing how Tribal governments over time gradually got supplanted by Feudal and Clan governments.

Succession Laws.png

[Changing succession law]

Then there’s succession laws. To no one’s surprise, Gavelkind is making a return, though we’ve renamed it to Partition to make it more obvious what it actually means. This is the default succession form of most realms in both 867 and 1066.

For added fun, there’s now three variants of Partition. We’ve got regular Partition, which functions like Gavelkind in CK2; your realm gets split roughly equally between your heirs, and any heirs that end up a lower tier than your primary heir becomes a vassal.

However, many realms start with a worse form, especially in 867. This is Confederate Partition, which will also create titles of your primary title’s tier if possible. So if you as Norway have conquered all of Sweden but destroyed the kingdom itself, it will get recreated on your death so that your second heir becomes an independent ruler. Tribals are typically locked to this succession type, with some exceptions.

Finally we have an improved version of Partition: High Partition. Under High Partition your primary heir will always get at least half your titles, so it doesn’t matter if you’ve got 2 or 10 kids; your primary heir will get the same amount of land.

We’ve also done a lot of tweaks to the internal logic of who gets what titles, which tends to lead to far nicer splits than in CK2; border gore will of course still happen, but to a lesser degree than before.

Then we have the other succession forms. There’s Oldest Child Succession (replacing Primogeniture), Youngest Child Succession (replacing Ultimogeniture), and House Seniority. A notable difference from CK2’s Seniority Succession is that under House Seniority, the oldest eligible member of your house inherits, not of your entire dynasty.

We also have a number of variants on elective succession, ranging from Feudal Elective, to Princely Elective (HRE succession), and a handful of cultural variants. Each of these have different restrictions on who can vote, who can be elected, and how the AI will select who to vote for.

Additionally, we’ve got a full suite of gender laws, corresponding to the gender laws in CK2. These are: Male Only, Male Preference, Equal, Female Preference, and Female Only.

Finally, we have raiding. If you’re a Norwegian like me, sometimes you feel your Viking blood coursing through your veins, the noise of it drowning out everything else. Times like this, there’s only one solution: go on a raid.

Fans of Pagan gameplay in CK2 will be glad to hear that not only have we implemented raiding in CK3 as well, we’ve made some improvements to it to make it more fun to play with, and less unfun to be on the receiving end of.

The core system is very similar to CK2. If you’re a Pagan or Tribal ruler, you have the ability to raid other rulers’ lands. To do so you raise a raid army, and march or sail over to your target. Only the Norse can raid across sea; other raid armies will simply be unable to embark.

Rally Point.png

[Raising a raid army]

Once at your target your army will start looting the barony they’re in. This is a pretty quick process, but during it your army will be unable to move, preventing you from running away from any counter-raiding force. This change makes it a lot simpler to deal with raiders if you’ve got enough men and can raise them quickly enough, as the AI won’t just immediately run away.

Raid Lindisfarne.png

[A raid in progress]

While in CK2 raiding was done on a county level, in CK3 it is on a barony level. Another difference is that in CK3 raiding no longer uses the siege mechanics directly, but rather a similar system where things like siege engines do not have an impact since you’re raiding the countryside, not a heavily fortified castle.

Another significant change is that if you beat a raid army, you receive all the gold they’re carrying. This means that even if you cannot respond instantly to a raid, it is still very much worth it to beat up the raiders. Like in CK2, you also become immune to raiding by that enemy for several years.

Just like in CK2, a raid army is limited in how much loot it can carry based on the army size. Loot is deposited once the army is back in friendly lands, after which you might either disband or go raiding once more.

On the quality of life side, we now show on the map what provinces have already been raided when you have a raid army selected. This makes it easy to see what places to avoid. Hovering over a province will also tell you how much loot raiding it would provide.

Raid.png

[Northern England in its natural state]

That’s all for today, folks. Tune in next week to learn more about how war functions in Crusader Kings 3.
 
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DàbiànLājīdàrén

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also, unplayable republics and theocracies strike as a bit of a letdown...

They literally said from the beginning republics would not be playable and that they had no intention of making non-dynastic characters playable.
 

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A reminder of the rules of this forum is order, as I just had to remove several posts that broke these rules:

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MrParadux

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I was expecting more from a revised gavelkind. Something like your eligible children expecting a certain "share" of your titles and/or wealth and for you to set the distribution before your death. Technically being able to give everything to one child, but majorly pissing everyone else off.

Also learning the words "primogeniture" and "ultimogeniture" is appearently too difficult for new players.
 
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Lordy's

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[1] Is it the vassal contracts themselves being on character level instead of realm level?
[2] Is it not enough options in the contracts? What sort of options would you like to see?
[3] Is it the different government types playing differently? Or not differently enough? What differences or similarities would you like to see?
[1] No, that's a really great change! Before you announced it, I didn't even knew that I want it, but since then it's a thing I like very much. It's one of the things you did very well in the transition from CK2 to CK3 - you reconsidered old assumptions about how the game mechanics should work and devised a better one.

[2] Yes, for me it is. When you announced "contracts", I was expecting something more than a discrete slider. It really seems too shallow.
I understand that adding many options to feudal contracts would require a lot of testing and balancing, so I wasn't going to ask specific religious, imprisonment, title laws for each singular vassal, but I hoped at least to have taxes and levies separated from one another. I'd definitely care a lot more about money than levies in specific counties of the map. It could also lead to interesting events, with vassals trying to convince you to give you less levies in exchange for more tax, and the opposite in, say, trade-focused counties or the ones controlled by a bishop.
I totally agree with that. If you were to simply make it two independent rows of 'sliders'
Troops: Low, Medium, High
Tax: (None), Low, Medium, High
it would already be much better, without you having to put in a lot of effort. It woudn't be a very complex system, but it wouldn't be totally simplistic either.
I also like the idea of a few events, where some vassal might depending on his traits (and wealth situation, he might be bankrupt) ask for less taxes in return for more troops or vice versa. Don't forget that the player should be able to ask his liege the same question (the vassal could have a 'renegotiate feudal contract' targetted decision (or better: ui)), where you can ask for more troops & less taxes, less taxes & more troops (liege relatively likely to accept) and lowering one of them without raising the other (liege probably won't accept, option for hooks and war). The latter one is probably already implemented, so you might only have to add the other options there.

[3] From what I read in the DD (who knows how it turns out in game), it seems fine. More differences and types would be better, I guess, but it's okay. Just one thing, considering that you added india to the map, you might want to make sure that playing there feels different than playing in europe, otherwise quite a lot of people will be annoyed ("They did waste their time on India, should have done ERE", and so on). A unique government would be one way to do so, succession laws are another option.
 

Nicthurne

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One of the major criticisms of Imperator at start was that every country felt the same to play. This is what I hhink a lot of people are fearing fof CK3 as well.

Not being able to properly do the Byzantines or Indian states justice is understandable. But at launch I think there should be *some* variation from regular feudal gameplay. Think of it as a placeholder that will be replaced by a deeper mechanism. But at least it would be some flavour.
 
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ray243

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I saw a big thread of responses spin off from yours about toxicity and feedback and the like but cause you were the first post I saw I am gonna respond to yours, not hard feelings you just got the unlucky quote I could use :D


The way said complaints are done is very important, a fair amount of this thread is not giving constructive feedback. Loud complaints about how shit something is, how shit we are, and that we just wanna milk you all for expansion money is not something we can take and do any direct actions with because at best its generic dislike of something and at worse its just insulting to our team instead of helpful.

As we've said in other responses in this dev diary, we hear you all, we get there are things with this system that are disliked by our hardcore fans after seeing your responses. But we also want to have actual constructive feedback we can take as action points for the future, what in the system makes it feel bad?

Is it the vassal contracts themselves being on character level instead of realm level?
Is it not enough options in the contracts? What sort of options would you like to see?
Is it the different government types playing differently? Or not differently enough? What differences or similarities would you like to see?

We are unlikely to do any big changes before release to systems as the fact of the matter is we have limited time until then and almost all of that already has plans for what to do in it. We don't develop by picking the next focus point based on dev diary feedback, that just isn't feasible to plan for in any way.

But we can promise to look into this more for changes in the future, especially if we have a concrete idea of specific things that the community dislikes so we have targeted improvements instead of more generic things.

Is the dev team willing to radically revamp the core game mechanics to ensure the Byzantine administration can be properly depicted? Otherwise we will see a repeat of CK2. Feudal mechanics that form a major part of the core game mechanics cannot depict a bureaucratic government well. No amount of patching can fix something that isn't well designed to accommodate a government system that is the anti-thesis of feudalism.
 
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Gurkhal

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Personally I'd like more options in a feudal contract.

What I would most like to see are, taxes paid, restrictions or allowed or forbidden behavior (like missionary*,, that a certain town or castle must be prioritized for improvements etc.), a way to more exactly define someone's military obligation in levy terms (like your obligation is to provide me with 1 unit of spearmen men-at-arms and 500 levies which would allow us to better customize our armies according to need, provided we keep our vassals friendly) or military duties (like you must keep raiding or attacking this target**, you must use your troops to protect his duchy from raiders by actively hunting them down*** and so on).

Essentially allowing us to manage the parts that our vassals have in our realm. Now of course the vassals will walk all over a weak king and they will probably not do what they're asked with, but if we play our cards right we should be, in my opinion, able to set up a system for the realm that somewhat works. Shouldn't be walk in the park, but it should be a possible thing to actually herd the cats that call us their liege.

So in short I think that feudal contracts should work as a way to give personalized orders, as opposed to general instructions with laws, to our vassals.

*Like for example that I task this lord with either work to spread his faith, I can forbidden a lord to spread his own faith "You are free to hold what faith you want within your family and for yourself, but I don't want to see you organzing clergy to go out and try to spread the word in my realm".

**Like if I'm Francia, I can assign a duke to keep the pressure on some large-ish Slavic tribe and so know that he'll try to expand against them without, once again, me having to take care of it personally and that this guys will then attack when there's an oppertunity and raid when possible, to keep up the pressure.

**So that for example you can semi-reliant know that if you keep good with this count, he'll work to protect Normandy from Norse raiders without the tedious micromanagement of raising armies, hunt down the raiders, disbland and repeat that forever).
 
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Is the dev team willing to radically revamp the core game mechanics to ensure the Byzantine administration can be properly depicted? Otherwise we will see a repeat of CK2. Feudal mechanics that form a major part of the core game mechanics cannot depict a bureaucratic government well. No amount of patching can fix something that isn't well designed to accommodate a government system that is the anti-thesis of feudalism.
That's going far to far, at the end of the day they only had so much to focus on before release, as much as I disagree with them not at the least porting some of the changes over from Holy Fury as far as Byzantium and the HRE are concerned, you cant just demand a 180. Sure at this point im probably gonna buy CK3 on sale after a few DLC, but you cant expect them to suddenly change course over this.
 
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D.Knight

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That's going far too far, at the end of the day they only had so much to focus on before release, as much as I disagree with them not at the least porting some of the changes over from Holy Fury as far as Byzantium and the HRE are concerned, you can't just demand a 180. Sure at this point I'm probably gonna buy CK3 on sale after a few DLC, but you can't expect them to suddenly change course over this.
While that is fair and the new "paradox strat" having people from day one already plan to wait and see is to an extent kinda sad but considering that maybe my plan as well... Of course, they'll try to counteract this with some preorder bonuses but as the above of you said if the system at the start is set up to cater to one government type it's probably not going to be flexible enough to do any others relative justice.

That said I don't really care about Byzantium specifically and a lot of the problems IMO would be soothed if the feudal contract system was opened up further in terms of versatility and modability. That would allow modders to get into the meat of the system and design something far more alive and changeable than financial and market constraints would allow Paradox to do so. Right now even with personal contracts for each vassal, it's essentially the same as realm laws as you'd still want each vassal on high and if everyone's on high anyway might as well do it at once with a realm law though I will acknowledge the relative anti-blobbing factor of this system making it somewhat superior.
 
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chelvo

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  1. Is it the vassal contracts themselves being on character level instead of realm level?
  2. Is it not enough options in the contracts? What sort of options would you like to see?
  3. Is it the different government types playing differently? Or not differently enough? What differences or similarities would you like to see?
  1. No problem with that, tbh.
  2. That is my personal main gripe, I believe a lot of people agree with. For example, it was brought up in an earlier dev diary, that harsh climates produced better soldiers while gentle gave you more taxes, something that could very well be used here, but at least some more options, that can make a contract truly unique and tailored for each vassal(The thing with Religious Autonomy I brought up earlier could also be a nice thing).
  3. Tbh, I do not have the practical experience of playing CK3 yet, so I'm not too knowledgable how it feels exactly. But I do understand that you put the Empire of the greeks on hold so that you can do it right later, just watch out that the government system is changeable enough that not everything ends up a clone of french feudalism again, it was quite a hindrance in Ck2 that did cause some problems.
 

treb

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.
That is my personal main gripe, I believe a lot of people agree with. For example, it was brought up in an earlier dev diary, that harsh climates produced better soldiers while gentle gave you more taxes, something that could very well be used here, but at least some more options, that can make a contract truly unique and tailored for each vassal(The thing with Religious Autonomy I brought up earlier could also be a nice thing).
To add to this I think there is a lot of potential to create some nice flavor with contracts, Dhimmi contracts where a non Muslim vassal can agree to a much steeper tax in return for no being actively converted or persecuted without just cause, elector count contracts for the HRE, marcher lords, prince bishoprics, free cities! As I understand the system it appears to me to have far more potential than what has been shown in the DD.
 

ray243

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That's going far to far, at the end of the day they only had so much to focus on before release, as much as I disagree with them not at the least porting some of the changes over from Holy Fury as far as Byzantium and the HRE are concerned, you cant just demand a 180. Sure at this point im probably gonna buy CK3 on sale after a few DLC, but you cant expect them to suddenly change course over this.

Then there's really not much point for me to buy CK3.
 
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Pied-Noir

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@blackninja9939

I implore you to reverse the dumbed down succession law name change. Given that the text on the right specifically tells you what the law does, there is no reason to use these silly simplistic terms rather than historical ones. Primogeniture and Ultimogeniture are interesting historical terms and the kind of little thing that people actually learn about history whilst playing your game. In this instance you've got the trade-off between usability and historical flavour all wrong - even if with the noblest of intentions. Likewise for Enatic, Agnatic, etc.

And please add Tanistry for the Celtic group again. The Scots and Irish duchies (petty kingdoms) should have this, and the kingdom of Scotland in both start dates.
 

Major Malfunction

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What about nomadic raids? That was the plague of russian region in a "bad" way. Nomads spawned neverending armies, and no matter how many you will kill they will still come at you, with 5-year of not raiding means absolutely nothing. And tedious gameplay of constantly fighting 500-2000 strong raids were BORING. At some point it was easier to ignore raids alltogether thad deal with every miniscule invasion. You kill 500-soldier raid and raid leader can't raid you for 5 years, so what? There are 100 more characters raiding on their own.
Even if raiders will have raiding time, that still won't save players from constant fighting those swarms of raiders.
 

Secuter

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Is it the vassal contracts themselves being on character level instead of realm level?
Is it not enough options in the contracts? What sort of options would you like to see?
Is it the different government types playing differently? Or not differently enough? What differences or similarities would you like to see?

There certainly are responses to this post which are neither helpful or constructive. However, I dare say that most of the criticism that has been given has been accompanied with the main gripe they have and how they'd like to see it changed. By going through the comments it is clear that I'm on the criticism team - like most of the community.

1. No, this is the awesome part. This allows for unique contracts based on how well you can manage your vassals. The problem is that there's only 3 flat steps.
2. Exactly. It's a "flat" 3-step system. That does not in my opinion allow for any significant uniqueness between the contracts.
What I'd like to see is a deep system where I can negotiate with the liege. For instance, I might offer my realm as a vassal in exchange for a really good contract. My own autonomy should also be decided depending on geography, a border realm far from the capital will be much harder to control than the duke right next to the capital. It should also depend on my own power which might allow you more leverage. Maybe the contract given to me means that I don't have to raise any troops my self, but I pay a higher tax during wartime? It could also be that I'm quasi-independent and the king can't (officially) send his councilors to my realm. There are loads of options to pick from when looking at history. Most of all, a really good contract might ensure my loyalty in times of civil war. I don't want to lose my advantageous contract that I've been negotiating with my liege.
Basically, the vassal contract should reflect the power of the vassal, allegiance to the crown, personal relations, distance, personality and so much more. The system you showed here only allowed for basic more/less tax and levies.

In regards to what I wrote above, I really hope that I can make soft negotiations with my king. In CK2 it was made through demands which led to civilwar if refused. But civilwar should be the last option when negotiations are stuck.
3. I don't have enough information to give a proper answer to that. So far it seems alright as I'm sure you'll do something with Byzantium at some point.
 
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Topias

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The lack of an appropriate government for ERE is pretty inexcusable. We're not talking about peripheral tribelands, here. Kicking the problem down the road instead of prioritizing such a pivotal and central realm for launch speaks extremely poorly of PDX. You don't have time to do it for release? Then clearly you need more time, just like has been the case with every recent AND every upcoming PDX release.

This is starting to look like another I:R, which is unfortunate, given that things thus far have looked quite promising, barring some gaffes. If ERE can be dismissed as of secondary importance and something to be fixed post-release, just how lacking will other parts of the game be in terms of mechanics and flavor?
 
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grzegorz444

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Well, I think, we'll get in the future some dedicared DLC for expand gameplay(maybe for ERE:)), I do not have a problem with that, Paradox isn't Salvation Army:p It's simply quite annoying when you answer:not planned...not planned etc.
All we want to see CK3 the best possible