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CK3 Dev Diary #17 - Governments, Vassal Management, Laws, and Raiding

Good afternoon, everyone. I’m Magne “Meneth” Skjæran. You might know me from the CK2 dev diaries or the Paradox Wikis, but for the last couple of years I’ve been working on CK3 as a programmer. Today we’re going to cover a number of topics closely related to government types: governments themselves, vassal management, laws, and raiding.

Let's start off with a familiar concept from CK2: governments. For the player, we have three playable governments: Feudal, Tribal, and Clan, which each have some significant differences in how they play.

The Feudal government type is based on European feudalism, and is heavily based around the idea of obligations: you owe service to your liege, and your liege owes you protection in return. It is the most common government form in the game. Feudal realms play pretty similarly to CK2, focusing on claims and inheritance more so than the other government forms.

A new addition in CK3 is Feudal Contracts. Every feudal vassal (except barons) has an individual contract with you, rather than obligations being set realm-wide. These contracts have three levels; Low, Medium, and High, with Medium being the default. High will provide more levies and tax at the cost of an opinion hit, while Low provides less but improves opinion. Higher levels are usually better (though perhaps not if you’re at risk of your vassals revolting), but cannot be imposed unilaterally.

You’ll need to have a hook on your vassal in order to increase their obligations unless you’re fine with all your vassals considering you a tyrant, but you can always lower them. As a result this means you can significantly increase your power if you’re able to obtain hooks on your vassals; perhaps a bit of judicious blackmail might be in order?

Feudal Contract.png

[Modifying a Feudal Contract]

Furthermore we have the Clan government form. This government is the rough equivalent of the Iqta government in CK2, though in CK3 it does have a more Feudal bent than it did previously.

The Clan government type is used by most Muslim realms. This government puts more emphasis on the family rather than the realm, with most vassals being members of your dynasty. Obligations are heavily based on opinion rather than being contractual, with happy vassals providing significantly more taxes and levies than unhappy ones. A happy family is a powerful family.

Clan governments also have access to the Clan Invasion casus belli, which can be used once in a lifetime at the highest level of Fame to invade a kingdom, providing a powerful boon for a well-established clan ruler.

Finally we have Tribal realms. Much like in CK2 these have their own Tribal holding type, providing more troops but less tax. Additionally, most tribals are able to go on raids, which you can read more about below. Tribal realms are unaffected by development, and cause non-tribal realms to have lower supply limits in their lands, making them a tougher nut to crack, but reducing their influence as the years drag on. Tribal realms also pay for men at arms using prestige rather than gold, allowing smaller realms to punch above their weight.

Tribal rulers base their obligations on levels of Fame rather than on contracts or opinion; the more famous your ruler is, the more troops and money your vassals will be willing to provide for your pursuits.

Finally, Tribal rulers have a once-in-a-lifetime Subjugation casus belli, allowing them to forcibly vassalize an entire realm.

As the game goes on, you can eventually reform out of Tribalism, becoming a Clan or Feudal realm instead.

Vassal Overview.png

[The vassal management tab]

To get an easy overview of your realm, we in CK3 have the Realm screen. Let’s start with the Vassals tab of this screen where all your vassals are shown. This gives you a clear overview of where your levies and taxes come from, who might be a threat to you, and allows you to renegotiate feudal contracts.

This is also where you change your crown authority (or tribal authority), which I’ll talk more about later in this dev diary.

Lastly, the screen shows your Powerful Vassals. Much like in CK2’s Conclave DLC, your realm will have some powerful vassals; these expect to be seated on the council, and will make their displeasure known if that is not the case.

Domain overview.png

[The Domain Tab]

Then we have the Domain tab. This lets you easily inspect your domain, showing where you’re earning money and levies, and where you can build more buildings. It also shows the level of development and control in the counties you personally hold, letting you easily tell where you can make improvements.

Finally we have the Succession tab. Due to being a bit of a work in progress, I’m afraid I can’t show you a picture of it right now. Here you can change your succession laws, see your heir(s), and check what titles, if any, you will lose when you die. If you hold any elective titles, you’ll be able to easily get to the election screen from here.

Now with all these mentions of laws, let's go through what laws exist. We’ve trimmed down the number of laws from CK2 as much of what used to be law is handled on a more individual level now, but some still remains.

Like in CK2, we have crown authority for Feudal and Clan realms, and tribal authority for Tribal realms. Higher levels of authority unlock mechanics like imprisonment (for tribals, the others start with it), title revocation, restrictions on internal wars, and heir designation. However, increasing these levels will make your vassals unhappy. Tribal authority is significantly less powerful than crown authority, representing how Tribal governments over time gradually got supplanted by Feudal and Clan governments.

Succession Laws.png

[Changing succession law]

Then there’s succession laws. To no one’s surprise, Gavelkind is making a return, though we’ve renamed it to Partition to make it more obvious what it actually means. This is the default succession form of most realms in both 867 and 1066.

For added fun, there’s now three variants of Partition. We’ve got regular Partition, which functions like Gavelkind in CK2; your realm gets split roughly equally between your heirs, and any heirs that end up a lower tier than your primary heir becomes a vassal.

However, many realms start with a worse form, especially in 867. This is Confederate Partition, which will also create titles of your primary title’s tier if possible. So if you as Norway have conquered all of Sweden but destroyed the kingdom itself, it will get recreated on your death so that your second heir becomes an independent ruler. Tribals are typically locked to this succession type, with some exceptions.

Finally we have an improved version of Partition: High Partition. Under High Partition your primary heir will always get at least half your titles, so it doesn’t matter if you’ve got 2 or 10 kids; your primary heir will get the same amount of land.

We’ve also done a lot of tweaks to the internal logic of who gets what titles, which tends to lead to far nicer splits than in CK2; border gore will of course still happen, but to a lesser degree than before.

Then we have the other succession forms. There’s Oldest Child Succession (replacing Primogeniture), Youngest Child Succession (replacing Ultimogeniture), and House Seniority. A notable difference from CK2’s Seniority Succession is that under House Seniority, the oldest eligible member of your house inherits, not of your entire dynasty.

We also have a number of variants on elective succession, ranging from Feudal Elective, to Princely Elective (HRE succession), and a handful of cultural variants. Each of these have different restrictions on who can vote, who can be elected, and how the AI will select who to vote for.

Additionally, we’ve got a full suite of gender laws, corresponding to the gender laws in CK2. These are: Male Only, Male Preference, Equal, Female Preference, and Female Only.

Finally, we have raiding. If you’re a Norwegian like me, sometimes you feel your Viking blood coursing through your veins, the noise of it drowning out everything else. Times like this, there’s only one solution: go on a raid.

Fans of Pagan gameplay in CK2 will be glad to hear that not only have we implemented raiding in CK3 as well, we’ve made some improvements to it to make it more fun to play with, and less unfun to be on the receiving end of.

The core system is very similar to CK2. If you’re a Pagan or Tribal ruler, you have the ability to raid other rulers’ lands. To do so you raise a raid army, and march or sail over to your target. Only the Norse can raid across sea; other raid armies will simply be unable to embark.

Rally Point.png

[Raising a raid army]

Once at your target your army will start looting the barony they’re in. This is a pretty quick process, but during it your army will be unable to move, preventing you from running away from any counter-raiding force. This change makes it a lot simpler to deal with raiders if you’ve got enough men and can raise them quickly enough, as the AI won’t just immediately run away.

Raid Lindisfarne.png

[A raid in progress]

While in CK2 raiding was done on a county level, in CK3 it is on a barony level. Another difference is that in CK3 raiding no longer uses the siege mechanics directly, but rather a similar system where things like siege engines do not have an impact since you’re raiding the countryside, not a heavily fortified castle.

Another significant change is that if you beat a raid army, you receive all the gold they’re carrying. This means that even if you cannot respond instantly to a raid, it is still very much worth it to beat up the raiders. Like in CK2, you also become immune to raiding by that enemy for several years.

Just like in CK2, a raid army is limited in how much loot it can carry based on the army size. Loot is deposited once the army is back in friendly lands, after which you might either disband or go raiding once more.

On the quality of life side, we now show on the map what provinces have already been raided when you have a raid army selected. This makes it easy to see what places to avoid. Hovering over a province will also tell you how much loot raiding it would provide.

Raid.png

[Northern England in its natural state]

That’s all for today, folks. Tune in next week to learn more about how war functions in Crusader Kings 3.
 
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Groundpounder12

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Yeah, of course - I'm cautiously optimistic but I keep seeing things that make me go "hmm" and they're starting to snowball, which is worrying me.

For me one of the main issues is only having 867 and 1066. I understand the fact they want to get their chosen bookmarks as polished as possible, but 867 is absolutely horrible to play in continental Europe due to the non-stop Karling wars, and 1066 is a scenario I've played to death in CK2 over the years. They should of course put their primary focus on 1066 and it is the go-to scenario with a lot of fun dynasties and interesting characters, but not having 936 and 1187 is going to hurt replayability quite a bit.

And I'll be honest, I was really looking forward to trying the Byzantines but now I'm not - they're going to be boring as hell.
I agree. I’m pretty bummed about losing the date-specific starts. But I think I have a unique perspective because I’m married to a software developer and I realize the amount of budgeting they must have needed to rebuild something so complex from the ground up. I think that’s why I’m more lenient and willing to wait on DLCs
 
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I don't think we've decided yet how moddable that will be. Republics and theocracies don't work well with the dynastic gameplay of CK3 though.

Why? Historical Republics and theocracies were full of dynasties, but they were simply not feudal dynasties. If CK3 gave us non-feudal estates for dynasties to manage and to make use of their resources and networks to climb to power, you can create dynastic gameplay for Republics and theocracies.

I think the main issue the devs seem to have is to view almost everything through a feudal-European lens at constructing gameplay, which hinders the development of gameplay mechanics for non-feudal, non-monarchical factions.
 
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If I remember correctly, inheritance will override an existing contract if it causes a change in liege or an increase in tier.
So a duke dying and giving his stuff to his count or unlanded son will cause the contract to still apply. But if the son was a duke or king, the son would keep his own contract.
1: So is it mainly the higher liege dying that causes contracts to expire, so if I ruled for eg: 100 years and my vassals were to die fairly often the new ones would just inherit the old contract until I croak?

2: Also in the same area if a count under me creates their duchy would that again create the need for a new contract since they are rising in rank and not just staying the same level?

We also have a number of variants on elective succession, ranging from Feudal Elective, to Princely Elective (HRE succession), and a handful of cultural variants. Each of these have different restrictions on who can vote, who can be elected, and how the AI will select who to vote for.
The Byzantines will be playable.
3: Will the Byzentines get their own government form again like the HRE seem to be getting or will they have to share one of the more generic ones

Edit: wanted to avoid double posing since I thought of more questions
 
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The Holy Roman Empire does have Princely Elective - a succession form that we've put quite a bit of effort into, and that suits the Elective framework we've created quite nicely.


If CK3 was a game about playing a Strategoi in Byzantium, then we would definitely have done it. Now, the primary goal of CK3 is to make it a game about medieval drama and intrigue, with a heavy focus on characters and their interactions. And while it's fair to say that Byzantium was a hotbed for court drama, we have to make calls during development - we simply can't do everything we want.


That and 'Gravelkind' *shudder*


Levies are taken from the vassals themselves, unlike CK2's magical troops. This means that vassals will get visibly stronger/weaker based on the contract they have and that civil wars are MUCH more dangerous as the Vassals instantly get all their contractually obligated levies returned.

Culture and religion like Byzantine and Orthodox?
It can be done too, it's not just about the Byzantine "nation" (as the other PDX games would have defined), it's about characters too, the Basileus, his strategoi, his despots, they are all characters.



You know, one would expect them to nail down one of the most important entities in the time period before allocating resources into expanding the map to Tibet and Subsaharan Africa.
Hell, even India can considered be very much secondary to the game's central theme in comparison to the Byzantines.
Yet, here we are.

It took until Dev Diary #17 for the Byzantines to be mentioned, and now we know why. They're being treated as a generic empire, and that is just... bad.

I agree that further expanding the map at the expense of making the ERE interesting is a bad call. The ERE should be fun, interesting, and just different enough to have its own flavour.

Suggesting "we'll fix it later" brings up the down side of Paradox's reputation ("release unfinished and then DLC to death") instead of the upside ("release a good product and keep improving"). This was a bad call.
 
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It took until Dev Diary #17 for the Byzantines to be mentioned, and now we know why. They're being treated as a generic empire, and that is just... bad.

I agree that further expanding the map at the expense of making the ERE interesting is a bad call. The ERE should be fun, interesting, and just different enough to have its own flavour.

Suggesting "we'll fix it later" brings up the down side of Paradox's reputation ("release unfinished and then DLC to death") instead of the upside ("release a good product and keep improving"). This was a bad call.

And yet the HRE gets special attention. I should have expected this when the 936 patch was released. For this game, I was expecting co-emperorship, the appointment of strategoi, which i felt was a good system (albiet the only system that allowed you to succeed, if you granted land to any of your vassals permanently say hello to endless revolts) but here we get a generic empire at the start. Until these features are actually released as DLC, they will be unplayable in my eyes. And yet we get features that barely anyone used, front and center with attention payed to them. India on release when you're locked onto the subcontinent ? The DLC as far as I know doesn't have many players and the only thing people bought it for was the county conversion. One feature. The fact that a central player in the crusades (and a major target of jihad) and a shaper of middle east doesn't get special attention to it feels off to me.
 
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It took until Dev Diary #17 for the Byzantines to be mentioned, and now we know why. They're being treated as a generic empire, and that is just... bad.

I agree that further expanding the map at the expense of making the ERE interesting is a bad call. The ERE should be fun, interesting, and just different enough to have its own flavour.

Suggesting "we'll fix it later" brings up the down side of Paradox's reputation ("release unfinished and then DLC to death") instead of the upside ("release a good product and keep improving"). This was a bad call.
Well the main focus of the game is on the crusades and christian kingdoms
 

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If CK3 was a game about playing a Strategoi in Byzantium, then we would definitely have done it. Now, the primary goal of CK3 is to make it a game about medieval drama and intrigue, with a heavy focus on characters and their interactions. And while it's fair to say that Byzantium was a hotbed for court drama, we have to make calls during development - we simply can't do everything we want.



The argument of Byzantines being no different from the feudal government at release is that CK3 isn't a game about playing a Strategoi in Byzantium? That is a pretty poor argument and appears to be a rationalization of the decision to put off an area of the game for paid DLC. Reasonable players know CK3 isn't a game solely about a Strategoi in Byzantium; a unique system to differentiate the Byzantine Empire from regular feudalism and expand upon it later is reasonably expected. Failing to recognize this is concerning for what other corners may have been cut. CK3 looks good overall, but I would like to make my disappointment about this subject known.
 
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Well the main focus of the game is on the crusades and christian kingdoms

The whole reason why the crusade happened was because of the Byzantines. The fact that pop history conveniently forgets to mention the importance of the Byzantines in the crusades does not mean a game devs should go down the same path.
 
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The argument of Byzantines being no different from the feudal government at release is that CK3 isn't a game about playing a Strategoi in Byzantium? That is a pretty poor argument and appears to be a rationalization of the decision to put off an area of the game for paid DLC. Reasonable players know CK3 isn't a game solely about a Strategoi in Byzantium; a unique system to differentiate the Byzantine Empire from regular feudalism and expand upon it later is reasonably expected. Failing to recognize this is concerning for what other corners may have been cut. CK3 looks good overall, but I would like to make my disappointment about this subject known.

I think it's more of the devs being unable to come up with a set of gameplay mechanics that aren't variations of landed feudalism. I think the gameplay mechanics is too locked in at this stage, that even a DLC update won't be enough to properly depict the Byzantines.

Prepare to see another Byzantine empire that is merely a modified version of feudal empire just like CK2. Because if the gameplay mechanics does not support non-landed dynastic gameplay, you cannot depict the Byzantines well.
 
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The whole reason why the crusade happened was because of the Byzantines. The fact that pop history conveniently forgets to mention the importance of the Byzantines in the crusades does not mean a game devs should go down the same path.

The name "byzantine" was invented as a dig at them by historians in the 17th century to reduce their importance, nothing but jealousy from historians chronicling the period. Considering many of the swedish, norse, danish joined the varangian guard you'd think that Paradox wouldn't shaft the byzantines like this due to their countries shared history with the ERE. But we see where the development time went, to an expanded map with areas that people won't even play due to how landlocked they are.
 
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I think it's more of the devs being unable to come up with a set of gameplay mechanics that aren't variations of landed feudalism. I think the gameplay mechanics is too locked in at this stage, that even a DLC update won't be enough to properly depict the Byzantines.

Prepare to see another Byzantine empire that is merely a modified version of feudal empire just like CK2. Because if the gameplay mechanics does not support non-landed dynastic gameplay, you cannot depict the Byzantines well.

Co-emperorship is something I've discussed with a friend for this game for a long time. The fact that you cannot appoint one is disappointing to say the least, which would allow a clearer succession with ERE politicing and allow the player to depict some of the drama with ERE succession. We're not going to get this though and I hope that some clever modder can include this at some point after release.
 
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I honestly don’t like the dumbed down succession names (partition/ male only/female only), it takes away from the immersion. I hate saying it, but this is the first thing I don’t like in ck3 which is weird because of how simple and small it is. I think explaining what it does is accomplished in a tooltip and I don’t think it’s necessary to take the immersion/teaching aspect away
 
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Looks pretty good, although I do think that the current feudal contract system is a little too simplistic and could do with a bit of fleshing-out before release.
 

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The name "byzantine" was invented as a dig at them by historians in the 17th century to reduce their importance, nothing but jealousy from historians chronicling the period. Considering many of the swedish, norse, danish joined the varangian guard you'd think that Paradox wouldn't shaft the byzantines like this due to their countries shared history with the ERE. But we see where the development time went, to an expanded map with areas that people won't even play due to how landlocked they are.

You don't need to lecture me about the name Byzantine. I know about the history but I am using it for convenience sake. Let's not get distracted into a different discussion.

Co-emperorship is something I've discussed with a friend for this game for a long time. The fact that you cannot appoint one is disappointing to say the least, which would allow a clearer succession with ERE politicing and allow the player to depict some of the drama with ERE succession. We're not going to get this though and I hope that some clever modder can include this at some point after release.

It's not that hard to mod in co-emperor as designated successor, as you can do so pretty easily in CK 2. The issue is more about the stake holders in nomination of a successor and confirmation of that successor. Unlike Western feudal realms, the concept of a Res Publica survived in the East. The empire was not conceived as a private property of a king or emperor, but as a public property in which the stakeholders (army, citizens and church) collectively agree on who should be the next ruler. So in theory, anyone can be an emperor, even if they are not members of a former dynasty.

The notion of being a noble differs in the east from western European notions of nobility. The creation of the Latin Empire after 1204 showed us the difference between the idea of aristocracy in the west and the east.
 
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And yet the HRE gets special attention. I should have expected this when the 936 patch was released.
It's looking like we're not getting 936 in CK3, and I doubt prince elective is going to be much different to feudal elective. Don't expect many unique mechanics for the HRE, and of course Byzantium won't have any. Oh goody.

I honestly don’t like the dumbed down succession names (partition/ male only/female only), it takes away from the immersion. I hate saying it, but this is the first thing I don’t like in ck3 which is weird because of how simple and small it is. I think explaining what it does is accomplished in a tooltip and I don’t think it’s necessary to take the immersion/teaching aspect away
I agree - I just hope those changes aren't a sign of similar changes to come =/
 
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It's looking like we're not getting 936 in CK3, and I doubt prince elective is going to be much different to feudal elective. Don't expect many unique mechanics for the HRE, and of course Byzantium won't have any. Oh goody.


I agree - I just hope those changes aren't a sign of similar changes to come =/

Infact, to go back to my previous post, I should have known this was coming back when the last round of byzantine nerfs came through. Reduced holy order troops, reduced varagian guard. Nerfed hard and people could still win with them.
 
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All I can say at this point is that whenever in the future we choose to deal with Byzantium we will make sure that we do it well.
And you'll charge us for the privilege, no doubt. I also seem to recall this being said for the Byzantines in CK2 on release, and you guys definitely did that 'right'. Heaven forbid one of the very first DLCs in CK2 and a major player in the time period not being considered important enough to spend time on for the base game. I have to wonder where that time went, considering you simplified everything else in the game.

This is a conscious choice as it creates drama and interesting choice. Do you want to have an actually competent Steward, or bite the bullet and put your angry but powerful vassal in the position to placate them? Also, the Council roles come with very powerful bonuses to the holder, so there's no surprise that they want to hold them!
No, it creates annoyance. Players will put up with it until they can stack enough modifiers to eat the hit and then it will be ignored, just like it was in Conclave. Did you learn nothing from CK2?
 
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A new addition in CK3 is Feudal Contracts. Every feudal vassal (except barons) has an individual contract with you, rather than obligations being set realm-wide. These contracts have three levels; Low, Medium, and High, with Medium being the default. High will provide more levies and tax at the cost of an opinion hit, while Low provides less but improves opinion. Higher levels are usually better (though perhaps not if you’re at risk of your vassals revolting), but cannot be imposed unilaterally.

That's cool. It will be nice to really get across more the idea better.

You’ll need to have a hook on your vassal in order to increase their obligations unless you’re fine with all your vassals considering you a tyrant, but you can always lower them. As a result this means you can significantly increase your power if you’re able to obtain hooks on your vassals; perhaps a bit of judicious blackmail might be in order?

Aren't hooks just intrigue/blackmail? I'd think that favors might do just as well. Instead of threatening "I know you do X, if you don't want everyone to know about it you better let me have more authority in your realm," which certainly might be one way of doing it, I would expect something like "okay, I'll bail you out of this bad situation you got yourself into, but in return I do expect more from you." I would assume the latter would be more common. Maybe that also qualifies as part of this "hook" system, idk. Just seems that rather than threatening them all the time, there should be at least the chance of bargaining for it they need you to help them out of a bad situation they got themselves into, but you are under no obligation to help them. Greater help for more loyalty, seems like a more natural progression to me, granted I would imagine threats were indeed one way. Just not the only way.

Then there’s succession laws. To no one’s surprise, Gavelkind is making a return, though we’ve renamed it to Partition to make it more obvious what it actually means. This is the default succession form of most realms in both 867 and 1066.

Lol, took me forever to keep straight what "gavelkind" was, and I used to always confuse seniority with primogeniture. Should make this much more approachable for people that aren't uber buffs.

Finally we have an improved version of Partition: High Partition. Under High Partition your primary heir will always get at least half your titles, so it doesn’t matter if you’ve got 2 or 10 kids; your primary heir will get the same amount of land.

Interesting system. It would seem to heavily reward having a lot of children, while most heavily penalize it, since your heir gets the same number of titles either way, but between the others you can break up the power more.

We’ve also done a lot of tweaks to the internal logic of who gets what titles, which tends to lead to far nicer splits than in CK2; border gore will of course still happen, but to a lesser degree than before.

This sounds pretty nice.

House Seniority. A notable difference from CK2’s Seniority Succession is that under House Seniority, the oldest eligible member of your house inherits, not of your entire dynasty.

lol, yeah I still find it difficult to keep track of, although finding the tab with all the heirs helps a lot.

We also have a number of variants on elective succession, ranging from Feudal Elective, to Princely Elective (HRE succession), and a handful of cultural variants. Each of these have different restrictions on who can vote, who can be elected, and how the AI will select who to vote for.

Nice to see that there will be better mechanics to represent the HRE more closely.

Additionally, we’ve got a full suite of gender laws, corresponding to the gender laws in CK2. These are: Male Only, Male Preference, Equal, Female Preference, and Female Only.

Female preference and female only seem a bit arcadey, but since Paradox games have always been more focused on alternate history type stuff it should be fun and interesting to have these options.