CK3 Dev Diary #100: A Royal Journey

[Black7Emperor7]

Shouldn't Madeira be left out of the Canary Islands as a "wasteland" or something like that? Madeira wasn't inhabited until the Portuguese arrived.

Also, there should be a way to prevent weird interactions between the Canary Guanches and the rest of the world (like being annexed by the Almoravids or sacked by Vikings).

To achieve this somewhat in Africa Plus/RICE guanche flavor pack we set up the Canary Islands with a new de jure structure (a formable kingdom). It won't stop the Vikings (though Viking target weights are scriptable I believe), but not having the Canaries as de jure of another kingdom means less Ai motivation to be subjugated by the Almoravids for example (as the ai targets counties within its de jure structure as a priority).

 

[Black7Emperor7]

Will you also give the Guanche their own character template? They supposedly looked different from anything in their immediate surroundings with lighter skin, hair and eye colour while also wearing close to nothing.

They definitely need to have a custom clothing set-up (even just the outfits of another tribal society), so far as not being dressed as generic Berbers with turbans like they live in the desert etc.

 

[Göstav]

Please take another look at Insular and fix Bulgarian being descended from Croatian. Maybe make a Sclavene proto-culture for all the South Slavs or do what Vlach does with "an unknown culture of South Slavic heritage"

Also in the future please split Frisian from Dutch. Dutch should only be descended from Frankish while Frisian should be its own culture and be on the map (maybe descended from Old Saxon if anything) Also move Bjarmian to Balto-Finnic heritage. Its current heritage makes 0 sense and doesn't conform to historical accounts. They were said to be like the Sami but sedentary and various Samic and Finnic groups lived in the region.

I have to point out that the Sami aren't Finnic and them being in the same culture group with Finnics is plain wrong. The Balto-Finnics expanded from the modern-day area of Northern-Estonia and settled Finland by sea. The Sami inhabited Finland before the Balto-Finnic seafarers but they were assimilated and their lands were taken over by the Finnics in the same way as the Norse did in Scandinavia.

 

[anubisdream]

So will the achievement "Mother of us All" be revised, with the change in West African Feudalism? Right now it requires reforming a religion.

 

[Karlington]

Good point.

Pic related is the average modern Guanche phenotypeView attachment 847794, and a reconstruction of how they would look in the middle-agesView attachment 847787.

Well, there are no modern Guanches AFAIK, though their genes live on to a certain extent in contemporary peoples.

Where is the medieval image from? I can't trace it any further back than to some gaming blog, which makes me somewhat skeptical of its accuracy.

I think Pagan Reformation needs a rework in general. Historically there was a single attempt at reforming religion with Baltic Slavs implementing elements of Catholicism like Temple buildings for example. I heard also, that Vladimir of Rus tried to reform Slavic faith as well, but I don't know any specifics.

How would you like to see it reworked?

 

[IndigoRage]

I have to point out that the Sami aren't Finnic and them being in the same culture group with Finnics is plain wrong. The Balto-Finnics expanded from the modern-day area of Northern-Estonia and settled Finland by sea. The Sami inhabited Finland before the Balto-Finnic seafarers but they were assimilated and their lands were taken over by the Finnics in the same way as the Norse did in Scandinavia.

Yup. That's why I went out of my way to say "Samic and Finnic" for Bjarmia, but I just don't know if they'll ever go for it. At least in terms of heritage there's no way it should be the same as Balto-Finnic.

 

[tribnia]

I hope you guys will use the struggle system for a struggle between HRE and Pope, in a way that it simulates the Investiture controversy, establishing Guelphs and Ghibellines conflicts (Imperial or Papal loyalists). AI outcomes should tend towards history, with the Kaiser humbled and Papal supporters becoming independent.
Outcomes could be:
- vassalization of the Pope
- dismantling of the Papacy and optional switch to Ecumenical Patriarch for Head of Faith
- status quo ending with Concordat of Worms, making all Papal supporters in Italy become independent from HRE

And Kingdom of God on earth!

 

[La Clef]

And while we're at it, can clan no longer be locked behind being Muslim? Or at the very least, maybe allow Islamic syncretic faiths access to it?

I've already seen Christian clanic 'kingdoms' (in Sicily and Sardinia).

 

[gorillacakes]

Will the Sephardi culture be changed to become "involved" in the struggle?

 

[NarcomancerPL]

How would you like to see it reworked?

Really hard question, but first and foremost if we want to keep reformation as a thing we need to make these religions actually reform i.e. they need to change. Maybe they should swap one or more of their tenents and some of their doctrines to more organized. They need to have more organized leadership.

Imho I think religions, especially pagan ones, should work similar to how cultures work right now. You should be able to change doctrines, tenents when you are head of religion or protector of the faith (let's introduce it from EU IV on similar ground) when there is no head of religion. If we would use system similar to cultural it could also mean more organic heresies or even reformations of organized religions, but it would have to be tone down compared to cultures to not change 99 religions already in game into 200 or more unique religions for every single game

Oh and this system could reintroduce autocephaly with Serbians, for example, having different head of faith than Greeks and some local differences

 

[Voy]

Well, there are no modern Guanches AFAIK, though their genes live on to a certain extent in contemporary peoples.

Where is the medieval image from? I can't trace it any further back than to some gaming blog, which makes me somewhat skeptical of its accuracy.

Yeah, his images are sketchy, but if you would like to see the written accounts of it, they're from the initial conquest of the islands in the 15th century by Jean de Béthencourt. And in dated french...

Le Canarien: livre de la conquête et conversions des Canaries (1402-1422)... : publié d'après le ... : Gabriel Gravier , Jean de Béthencourt : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Book digitized by Google from the library of Oxford University and uploaded to the Internet Archive by user tpb.

archive.org

The trend is generally lighter skin, hair and eyes. Very tall and muscular and wearing furs or plant fibre clothing. There is later research done into the specific names of the dresses and artefacts found on the islands. It's important to note that they did not use hard metals, opting instead for mud necklaces, feathers, claws, fishbone or similar more primitive decoration. Also, they had herds of sheep/goats without the wool the Europeans had so they dressed in furs or leather which they turned inside-out depending on the season and temperature.

 

[Thaif]

Cool to see the Guanche get some detail, they are a fascinating anthropological group of people with a predictably sad history starting from the Age of Discovery/Age of Sail.
This is horribly off-topic but whenever people discuss anything Finno-Ugric I can not help but join the conversation; The Estonian-Baltic component is both overstated and interesting.
This population movement occurred about, or during, the early Iron Age(200-400 AD) and certainly brought cultural elements to the Finnish coast(but not inland).
Yet this was but one of those movements. By 400-600 AD(Migration period) there were cultural and language differences and material culture is locally expressive, meaning that people showed cultural distinction and identity with the Estonian component stating to wane.
By the end of the period, clearly defined tribal dialectical areas – Finns, Tavastians, Karelians, Northern Estonians, Southern Estonians, and Western Estonians including the islanders—had emerged, the population of each having formed its own understanding of identity.

Stating that Finns came from Estonian is not incorrect, but also give a bit of a false image as to the anthropological history of the region. Finno-Ugric genetics(maternal and paternal genetic lineage) very broadly come from two directions; Eurasian steppe with Indo-European influence and Central-Asia with a Siberian bent(this either vanes or rises on a Western vs. Eastern Finland divide).

Naturally the details are even more fascinating, but often frustratingly difficult or slow to research. In closing I'd like to point out that the Mari King/Great-Chief Tsumbulat(Chumbylat) did a reform of the Mari faith and society, somewhat similar to the West-African Unreformed Tribal to Feudal conversion presented here. He's still celebrated and venerated among the Mari.

A whole Immersion pack could be dedicated to the whole Finno-Ugric sphere, but we all know that ain't happening. Ever.

 

[Ezumiyr]

Pic related is the average modern Guanche phenotype

I'm just making a comment to note that the website doing those "average phenotypes" is run by a nazi and full of pseudo-science. The "average" phenotypes it shows aren't average at all and done by picking arbitrarily portraits so the average looks the way they want.
See more details here.

Please stop using this website even for jokes.

 

[Hermerico]

I'm just making a comment to note that the website doing those "average phenotypes" is run by a nazi and full of pseudo-science. The "average" phenotypes it shows aren't average at all and done by picking arbitrarily portraits so the average looks the way they want.
See more details here.

Please stop using this website even for jokes.

I didn't even use the website, i just googled Guanche phenotype and it was the first image which popped out.

Anyway every single source or content i have seen on the matter seems to be consensual that were (and are) light skinned and often have fair traits just like the rest of the Berbers in the Atlas with whom they share most of their ancestry, or even with the people of the Spanish State, to which they belong.

 

[Ahskar]

After living many years in Canary Islands, I love the plans for Canary islands. However... there is no megalitism in the islands. The aborigines (guanches) worshipped NATURAL megaliths (Roques), and they used stone for their buildings, but the didn't build megaliths of any kind.
e.g.

Canarian aboriginal religion

Canarian aboriginal religion

second.wiki

 

[Ksiendzu]

I hope devs reads comments here.

 

[Göstav]

Cool to see the Guanche get some detail, they are a fascinating anthropological group of people with a predictably sad history starting from the Age of Discovery/Age of Sail.
This is horribly off-topic but whenever people discuss anything Finno-Ugric I can not help but join the conversation; The Estonian-Baltic component is both overstated and interesting.
This population movement occurred about, or during, the early Iron Age(200-400 AD) and certainly brought cultural elements to the Finnish coast(but not inland).
Yet this was but one of those movements. By 400-600 AD(Migration period) there were cultural and language differences and material culture is locally expressive, meaning that people showed cultural distinction and identity with the Estonian component stating to wane.
By the end of the period, clearly defined tribal dialectical areas – Finns, Tavastians, Karelians, Northern Estonians, Southern Estonians, and Western Estonians including the islanders—had emerged, the population of each having formed its own understanding of identity.

Stating that Finns came from Estonian is not incorrect, but also give a bit of a false image as to the anthropological history of the region. Finno-Ugric genetics(maternal and paternal genetic lineage) very broadly come from two directions; Eurasian steppe with Indo-European influence and Central-Asia with a Siberian bent(this either vanes or rises on a Western vs. Eastern Finland divide).

Naturally the details are even more fascinating, but often frustratingly difficult or slow to research. In closing I'd like to point out that the Mari King/Great-Chief Tsumbulat(Chumbylat) did a reform of the Mari faith and society, somewhat similar to what the West-African Unreformed Tribal to Feudal conversion presented here. He's still celebrated and venerated among the Mari.

A whole Immersion pack could be dedicated to the whole Finno-Ugric sphere, but we all know that ain't happening. Ever.

One important thing to point out is that around 1000AD, entire Finland had a population of around ~30 000 people, including the Sami. The population was mostly concentrated in the south and southwest.
At the same time, Estonia had a population of around 100 000 people, comparable to Norway at the same time period. That's the reason why Estonians were raiding so much and were a source of migration since the Bronze Age. Most people think that Finnics came from Finland and Finns were the dominant "culture head" but in reality, Estonians outnumbered the Finns massively for most of history and that's why Finnics migrated to Finland from Estonia as Northern-Estonia had such good farming conditions that it was constantly overpopulated.
Modern genetic research has also shown that practically all Finns have common ancestors with Estonians from about 1000 years ago which makes sense as that was the period when the 3rd expansion of Finnics happened from Estonia. It started around 400AD and ended in the 13th century with the Swedes, Danes and Germans invading and conquering Estonia after the Pope called for a crusade against them after centuries of endless raiding by the Estonians.

To summarise, nobody is saying that the Finns were Estonians, the Estonians/proto-Finnics and the people living on the coasts of Finland had their uniqueness but it would not be wrong to put Estonians and Finns in a common "Finnic" culture just like Norse is before the split. There are differences but there isn't a point to amplify it.
In the end, most Estonians (except south-eastern Estonians), southern- and south-western Finns were in a common Nordic cultural zone with Scandinavians already before the Viking age and the material culture is indistinguishable from eastern Scandinavian finds for many centuries. So the heritage part should probably be the same for Finnics and the Norse as they had very strong ties since the Bronze Age. Proto-Finnic itself formed in Estonia as a mix of Finno-Ugric newcomers who formed a new culture after assimilating the native proto-germanics living in modern-day Estonia and Northern-Latvia.

 

[arlekiness]

The thing is, you can already do this. You can reform Asatru and change basically nothing about its tenets or beliefs and still feudalize just because one guy owned enough arbitrary holy sites to click the reform button (still a mechanic I think doesn't make any sense for pagans in general.)

If the church is not the unifying element, if the clergy aren't being used in the administrative and community role they were elsewhere in Europe, I think it's just a matter of deciding who is doing that instead? In a case like Scandinavia or the Slavic forest zone, like you said, that's a pretty tall order since the local chiefs had so much authority. But if you can get to Absolute Tribal Authority and keep it there, you've proven your ability to keep them in line whether that be militarily or diplomatically. And if you have developed market centers (development in capital) enough to serve as an economic hub, I think a "secular feudalization" makes perfect sense in context.

This. Whole Holy Sites system feels senseless for pagan fates (how uncentralized religion can have them at all in the first place?). Reformation shouldn't be easy, of course, but on other hand it shouldn't be binded to some provinces and should become active only after religion was reformed (to preserve mechanics which connected to holy sites)

 

[NarcomancerPL]

This. Whole Holy Sites system feels senseless for pagan fates (how uncentralized religion can have them at all in the first place?). Reformation shouldn't be easy, of course, but on other hand it shouldn't be binded to some provinces and should become active only after religion was reformed (to preserve mechanics which connected to holy sites)

History is against you here mate. Pagans did have very specific place of cult, which you can call "Holy Sites" in game therminology. For example "Arcona" was well known slavic "holy site". Pagans weren't really pilgriming to these sites (at least not ones I know of), but it would may maybe make sense for reformed faiths

 

[daniloy]

Megaliths open the door to Berber Paganism