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CK2 Dev Diary #88 - A Faith In My Own Image

Greetings!

Bit of a sneaky DevDiary today - this Friday (when we usually post Dev Diaries) is the time for Midsummer celebrations here in Sweden, so we wouldn't be able to answer your questions! Tomorrow we'll be busy eating pickled herring and getting rained on, but today we're here for you!

By now it’s hardly a secret that the two main focuses for the Holy Fury expansion are going to be Catholicism as well as Paganism. Playing as a Catholic is core to the game, with a grounded set of rules for you to adhere to (and abuse). Playing a Pagan, in contrast, is a more visceral and instantly gratifying experience - with a strong emphasis on dynamism compared to the more rigid christian faiths. Before going any further, it’s worth noting that the Pagan religious group will be unlocked and playable with Holy Fury.

With Holy Fury, reforming a Pagan faith is no longer a one-click type of deal. Instead you’ll be able to tailor the new religion to become exactly what you want it to be through the new Reformation interface:
ReformationDD_ReformView.png


You will be able to open and preview this screen at any point while playing an unreformed pagan, allowing you to plan ahead what type of features you want to pick. We’ve also taken this opportunity to make the Bön religion reformable, to provide equal opportunity to the eastern Pagans.
ReformationDD_FeaturePicker.png


There are three different types of ‘slots’ to be filled in, the Nature, Doctrine and Leadership of the religion. The default selection will be thematically chosen depending on what faith you’re reforming - though there’s nothing stopping you from picking wildly divergent features, such as a Pacifistic Nature for the Germanic religion.

While most features will be available to all pagan religions, they will all have one unique doctrine that only they can pick. This is to enhance the differences between the various unreformed pagan faiths. The Germanic special feature will, for example, contain Seafaring and Prepared Invasions - something the other religions must spend two doctrine slots to get.

The possibilities with reformation are near endless, you’ll be able to make a religion that suits your specific needs. For example, if you’re surrounded by other religions (very common if playing Zun or Bön for example) the Cosmopolitan Nature would be advised, as then you can intermarry with your neighbors to create non-aggression pacts. If you’re tired of the Abrahamic religions and their incessant Crusades, you can adopt a Warmongering Nature combined with a Bloodthirsty Gods doctrine to really show them what you think of their weak rituals.

As there’s too many features for us to bring up right now, I’ll save them for a future Dev Diary. Worth noting is that several of the Doctrines you can choose will contain special events and decisions tied to them, so even if you’ve already played a game once where you reform a Pagan faith - you might just want to play another one, to see what could have been different.

To round off, here’s a few of our favorite reformation setups from us in the Dev Team:

ReformationDD_ReformViewRageair.png

Starting off with my own choice, I’m all about creating chaos - and there’s no greater way to achieve that than to promote not only close-kin marriage, but also harems on top of that! Once during a multiplayer with the Dev Team I managed to reform the religion most of us was playing into something similar to this. They were confused when their children started marrying each other, to say the least!

ReformationDD_ReformViewSnowcrystal.png

@Snow Crystal I like playing tall, so I like boosts that let me control who the Heir is, as well as making sure the heir is as popular as possible. I can't stand having a Religious Head that tells me what to do, and think Autocephalous is pretty cool. I don't really care about spreading my faith outside of my borders - if anything, I’d prefer everything outside my borders to be heathenous, so that I get more of a challenge!

ReformationDD_ReformViewSilfae.jpg

@Silfae Usually upon reforming, my dynasty ends up alone against a world of infidels. The quickest way to spread the faith when in those circumstances is through military action, hence the need for a Warmongering Nature. Picking the Astrology Doctrine unlocks the Zodiac traits for my characters, giving them various attribute boosts, while Haruspicy can help me influence the morale of my armies (for better or worse). Furthermore, since Astrology and Haruspicy are synergistic Doctrines, by combining them I gain access to additional perks that would have otherwise been out of reach for me... as well as ending up with an extremely superstitious religion.

ReformationDD-CJ.JPG

@Tuscany One of my favorite reformation combinations is mixing 'Bloodthirsty Gods’ and ‘Haruspicy'. Being able to sacrifice people to your gods and get rewarded for it is great fun, and when combined with Haruspicy (the art of reading an animal's entrails to predict the future) you can even cut apart your prisoners and see whether you will be lucky in future wars. Of course I pick ‘Temporal’ to allow me to rule over all of this as the conduit between god and man, and ‘Peaceful’ because non-violence is obviously the best strategy.
 
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Es57

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Awesome changes !

My only regret is that owning TOG will now be pointless, since HF unlocks basically any worthwhile feature of TOG, with improvements...

But I guess it's the problem with DLC features expanding DLC features that expand DLC features : at some point, you have to break every old paywall to get anywhere with the new stuff...
 

Orphalesion

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It would be really interesting to be able to reform more than once per playthrough. I mean, what works for a minority religion in the Hindukush of the 8th century might not work as wlel for a major religion spanning the whole Middle East in the 1400s, for example (and vice versa).
 

Caeserion

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1. Holy shit you guys I'm so fucking excited for this thanks so much
2. Can we assume that the AI will always reform with its specific doctrine with the rest being random or will all its choices be random?
3. How would the new religion be in a converted game in EU4?
4. Is there a bloodline for the reformer of a religion?
5. Can we see your multiplayer Dev sessions? Past or future?
6. How many leadership styles are there? Heirocratic, temporal, autocephalous, and? Can modders add more/tweak how they work?
7. Thanks, if I had money I'd pre-order.

EDIT: Have there been any changes to how Holy Orders work or how many there are?
 

Prominences

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Finally, a legitimate reason to reform the Tengri faith! And I can't wait to mess around with the West Africans as well; maybe they'll have a special Voodoo option, perhaps? Eh, I can dream...

Shouldn't there be some boundaries for combinations? Like forbid to have peaceful religion with bloodthirsty Gods?

I don't know, this idea is too amusing for me to pass up. "Now we shall offer you up as a sacrifice to please our ever-hungering gods! Now kindly step into this cell we've prepared for you; we'll have to wait a few years for you to die of old age. Can't be violently killing people for our gods, that's just wrong!"
 

El-Daddy

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This is great! Nice surprise on a Thursday too.

For others to see, I made a list a while ago of many of the differences that exist currently between religions ingame, pagan (unreformed and reformed) or non-pagan. Many of these may end up being customisable in the new reformation mechanics for pagans. I'm sure that there's some things here that won't be used, and others included that I didn't think of.
  • Elected head of religion / Generated head of religion / Secular head of religion
  • College of cardinals
  • Investiture
  • Autocephaly
  • Excommunication
  • Antipopes
  • Papal favours
  • Priests being able to inherit
  • Patriarchal (no female temple holders)
  • Feminist (no penalty to female ruler/heir)
  • Unlocked Status of Women laws (Cathar / Messalian)
  • Ordering to take the vows, and related traits
  • Short reign penalty length, or if there is one
  • Divorces (and how they are gotten)
  • Pilgrimage, and related traits
  • Missionaries
  • Piety gain for having theocratic vassals
  • Access to Societies (Monastic societies, hermetics, Devil worshippers, warriors lodges...)
    --------------------------
  • Resistance to conversion
  • Vassals never try to convert provinces unless they are zealous (Judaism)
  • Decadence
  • Polygamy
  • Being able to hold castle and temple holdings without penalty
  • Using piety for law changes
  • Prohibited uncle/niece or aunt/nephew marriage
  • Opinion penalties among brothers / half-brothers
    --------------------------
  • Concubinage
  • Raiding
  • River travel
  • Unique traits (Viking, Ravager, Sea King/Queen, Shieldmaiden, Berserker, Saoshyant, Saoshyant Descendent, Sayyid, Mirza)
  • Heir designation
  • Access/restriction to succession laws (Ultimogeniture for Zunists, limitation to gavelkind for pagans, etc)
  • Intermarrying with other faiths
  • Prestige loss when at peace, or piety gain when at peace.
  • Piety loss when at war with same faith.
  • Opinion modifiers (bonus to One-Eyed, Shieldmaiden, etc)
  • Offensive/defense pagans
  • Defensive pagan features - Ancestor worship, patron deities, summon devout warriors
  • Combat/attrition bonuses (Hindus get extra morale, Tengris ignore pagan attrition, etc)
  • Levy/Garrison/Retinue bonuses (offensive pagans get levy big bonuses, Germanics an extra retinue one, Tengri get Light cav bonuses, defensives get garrison bonuses, etc). These can change or be removed with reformation.
    --------------------------
  • Divine blood
  • Human sacrifice
  • Great Blot
  • Runestones
  • Sky burial
  • Festivals / Passover / Ramadan / etc
  • Caste systems
  • Court Gurus
  • Reject negative traits
  • Sects (for Dharmic religions, and Mutazilite / Ashari for Sunni)
  • Stat bonuses (learning for Buddhists, stewardship for Taoists)
  • Vassal opinion bonuses (Jain)
  • Demesne limit bonuses (Jain)
  • Restricted carousing/hunting (for Muslims and Jains respectively, on most occasions)
    --------------------------
  • Holy wars (with variable cost of piety or no cost of piety, targeting county or duchy, variable truce time, vassalise or usurp)
  • Great holy wars
  • Subjugation
  • Coastal conquest
  • County conquest
  • Prepared/sanctioned/tribal invasions
I would imagine some of these will remain exclusive to certain religions - College of Cardinals / Papal Favour / Investiture for Catholics, and decadence for Muslims. Loads more examples

I'd also say concubines and raiding will remain a default option for all pagans, as well as county conquests and a few other things.

The thoughts of all the combinations given in the pictures alone look great! I wonder how many things will be always intrinsic, so to speak, with Germanics or Slavics or Aztecs, for example, regardless of how the religion is reformed. I'm sure there are a few things that will make all Zunists be still have the feeling of Zunism, so to speak, for all pagans.

Can't wait to see what the options will be.
 
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Silfae

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2. Can we assume that the AI will always reform with its specific doctrine with the rest being random or will all its choices be random?

Yes, AI behavior during a reformation is scriptable. As such, if the Reformer is an AI, he will try to pick features that are sensible (according both to his personality and to the religion that is being reformed).
 

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1. Holy shit you guys I'm so fucking excited for this thanks so much
2. Can we assume that the AI will always reform with its specific doctrine with the rest being random or will all its choices be random?
3. How would the new religion be in a converted game in EU4?
4. Is there a bloodline for the reformer of a religion?
5. Can we see your multiplayer Dev sessions? Past or future?
6. How many leadership styles are there? Heirocratic, temporal, autocephalous, and? Can modders add more/tweak how they work?
7. Thanks, if I had money I'd pre-order.

EDIT: Have there been any changes to how Holy Orders work or how many there are?
1. It was fun to work on too :)
2. It'll be heavily weighted, IIRC
3. As before, I believe
5. CK2 MP isn't much of a spectator sport. We haven't recorded our past sessions
 

Nyrael

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3. As before, I believe

Should it be though? Now that you decide what kind of faith you have, shouldn't the converter generate a religion's bonuses based on these Dogmas instead of the religion itself?
 

DeinonychusTaco

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Can we get a breakdown of what will/won't be unlocked by Old Gods and Holy Fury? Not that I really mind the overlap, just when I try to get friends to play CK2 I always recommend Old Gods as the one expansion they should absolutely get if they're going to get only one expansion. If Holy Fury ends up being Old Gods 2.0, I'll start recommending it instead, but if there are big features still exclusive to Old Gods that get left out if you have only Holy Fury, I'll probably not.
 

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Should it be though? Now that you decide what kind of faith you have, shouldn't the converter generate a religion's bonuses based on these Dogmas instead of the religion itself?
Given unlimited development resources, sure.

Sadly we don't live in a world with unlimited development resources. For instance, I did not get the chance to clone myself before I got moved over to <REDACTED> two months ago, so I'm no longer on the CK2 team.
 

DreadLindwyrm

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1. It was fun to work on too :)
2. It'll be heavily weighted, IIRC
3. As before, I believe
5. CK2 MP isn't much of a spectator sport. We haven't recorded our past sessions

Is it possible to have the traits for the reformed religion in CKII to carry through the converter?
If, for example, you have a reformation that somehow creates a pacifist Norse faith, are the force limit boosts appropriate?
Why do they automatically get the personal god mechanic anyway?
 

Meneth

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Is it possible to have the traits for the reformed religion in CKII to carry through the converter?
If, for example, you have a reformation that somehow creates a pacifist Norse faith, are the force limit boosts appropriate?
Why do they automatically get the personal god mechanic anyway?
It's not something we're likely to have the time to do.
 

Caeserion

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For instance, I did not get the chance to clone myself before I got moved over to <REDACTED> two months ago, so I'm no longer on the CK2 team.
Hold up. Whats this now? We demand an explanation now, Your Grace.
 

Meneth

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Hold up. Whats this now? We demand an explanation now, Your Grace.
Two months ago I moved to another project at PDS. Nothing I can tell you anything about, I'm afraid.
I still follow what's going on with CK2 though, just not as closely as when I was on it.
 

Caeserion

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Nothing I can tell you anything about, I'm afraid.
Shouldn't have mentioned it all mate, now I'm just going to obsess over it.

Also, coming back on topic, is the requirement for reformation still the same? 3 religious sites+750 piety?