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CK2 Dev Diary #83 - God Wills It!

Greetings!

PDXCon is soon upon us, and we hope to see you there! During the event we will reveal the name and theme of the Expansion we’re working on, and after PDXCon is over we’ll have plenty of Dev Diaries that will delve deep into the new expansion features. For now though we’d like to present the main feature of the free patch that’ll accompany the Expansion!

It is time to don your armor and ready your steed, as the Vicar of Christ himself has declared that all who join in expelling the infidel from the Holy Land will have their sins absolved!

The Crusades are a very iconic part of the game, though one that has barely seen any change since the game was released 6 years ago. A lot of fantastic and interesting systems have been added to the game over the years, and we wanted this very central feature to feel as deep and interesting as any one of them.

The Catholic faith will no longer use the old Great Holy War system - instead they will use a new and improved system specifically tailored to both increase immersion and enhance the gameplay surrounding the crusades. This system is massive, and it might be hard for us to fit all of the information into this single DD, but we’ll give it our best shot!

We have specifically aimed to fix the issue where, unless you intend to win the crusade, there was no real reason for you as a player to participate except to get the ‘Crusader’ trait.

To accomplish this we’ve made Catholic crusades work in two phases; first there is a Preparation Phase, followed by the actual war. To communicate this properly we needed a new dedicated interface. Enter, the Crusade View:

CrusadeDD_PrepPhase.png

Holy shield, on the wall, which is the holiest city of them all?

When the pope decides that it's time for a new Crusade, he will send a call to the Catholic world for support. When he does you can access the Crusade View by clicking the Crusade Banner underneath your portrait.

In the Crusade View you will have access to a plethora of useful information, and you’ll be able to take actions to help the crusade or to alter its course. You will be able to see the Pope’s proposed recipient (if any) in the top left corner, and the target character and title in the top right. There will be a timer counting down to the date where the war will start. During this time, the following can be done:
  • Catholic rulers can pledge their military support to the crusade. When they do, they appear in the list of Pledged Participants. For every crusader that pledges, prestige, piety and artifacts are added to the War Chest. The religion being targeted by the crusade can ‘counter pledge’, and it’s the relative strength of these two sides that is shown as ‘Total Strength’ underneath their portraits. Pledged rulers will automatically be called into the war as it starts.
  • All Catholic rulers get the option of donating money to the War Chest in exchange for piety and opinion with the Pope. This money is then added to the War Chest, more on that later.
  • Crusaders who have pledged military support can add a beneficiary to the crusade. This character must be a dynasty member, and depending on your participation in the crusade they might be granted a title in the Crusader Kingdom should the crusade be successful. More on this later.
  • Players can pay piety to change the target character and/or title. This cost starts fairly low, but doubles each time to avoid spamming. This means that if you’d rather have a crusade target a scary infidel realm on your immediate border, you can make it happen if you’re pious enough!
  • Players can choose their ‘Stance’ on what they want to happen should they be the most participating crusader. More on this later.

If a Catholic ruler chooses to neither pledge to the crusade or donate money to the War Chest, the Pope might get very upset with them. Depending on the rulers tier and influence, this can range from a simple piety hit to an outright excommunication. Revoking your pledge also carries a similar penalty.

Regarding the War Chest - when the preparation phase is over, 20% of the money in the War Chest will be divided between the pledged Crusaders, in order to provide for their levies and fleets as they go to war. The rest is saved until the end of the Crusade, where it is used as rewards for the participants and to set up the Crusader Kingdom. The Crusader Kingdom will receive 10% of the War Chest in order to steel them against imminent counterattacks. The rest (including prestige, piety and artifacts) is given out to the Crusaders who participated in the crusade, in order to motivate you as the player to participate as much as you can - even if you don’t expect to win. To ensure that the top contributors don't take all of the War Chest rewards, any one participant can receive at most 20% of it. As the Catholic world tends to be rather… generous with their donations, this often translates into a lot of wealth! Beware though, if the crusade is lost the majority of the contents of the War Chest will be lost, and Christendom will be weaker for it...

When the Preparation Phase is over, the war begins and the Crusade View changes:
CrusadeDD_WarPhase.png

Note that the numbers are still WIP.

The Countdown Timer is replaced by the warscore and the name of the Crusade is updated, otherwise the functionality remains the same (except for being able to change the target, of course, at this point it’s too late for that).

If the Crusade is successful, what will happen depends on the top contributor’s stance. There are three stances; ‘Selfish’, ‘For my Beneficiary’ and ‘Comply with Papal Demands’. The AI will always choose to go with Papal Demands.
  • The ‘Selfish’ stance will see the top contributor take the lands for themselves. Doing this completely disqualifies them from the War Chest though, and is seen as impious by the Pope.
  • The ‘For my Beneficiary’ stance will see your beneficiary become King/Queen of the lands. While still not approved by the Pope, it’s not seen as impious, and you still qualify for (parts) of the War Chest. If the pope has chosen no recipient for the title, this is the default behaviour and carries no penalties.
  • The ‘Comply with Papal Demands’ stance simply sees whoever the Pope wishes to rule the lands become the King or Queen. If he has no opinion, it will go to the top contributor’s beneficiary.

In the old system, the title and all under it went to the winner of the crusade. You often saw France or the HRE own for example Jerusalem, which in all honesty was very boring, and more often than not only resulted in an inheritance mess. While a player can still choose to use the old system by choosing the ‘Selfish’ stance, the new default behaviour is completely different. Unless the Pope wishes to restore an existing King or Claimant (where the normal, old, behaviour will be used) a Crusader Kingdom will be set up:

CrusadeDD_JerusalemAllSetUp.png


A Crusader Kingdom is a multicultural kingdom made up of the beneficiaries of all participants. The top contributing participants will have their beneficiaries get higher titles in the target kingdom. To avoid the player gaming the system using inheritance, the Kingdom is always set up to disallow external inheritance - and the AI tends to choose beneficiaries that do not stand to inherit or are married to someone who might inherit.

If your beneficiary receives land in a Crusader Kingdom, your entire Dynasty will receive a monthly boon to piety until their death. In a future Dev Diary we will go into more detail regarding the importance of Piety in the Catholic sphere, but rest assured that it’s going to be more important to be seen as pious than it’s ever been before - making the boon from your beneficiary rather significant.

The new ruler of the Crusader State, in order to properly rule such a challenging realm, gets a trait appropriately named ‘Crusader King/Queen’ which confers a massive same religion opinion along with some other goodies.

And, for the finale, if your beneficiary is selected to be the King or Queen of the Kingdom - you have the option of switching over to them, taking control of the newly established Crusader Kingdom and leaving your old character behind (which is also part of the reason why you can only choose members of your own dynasty as beneficiaries). We believe that doing a thing such as this will provide the quintessential CK2 experience, where you have to both manage unruly vassals and defend against vengeful religious foes!

Stay tuned for future Dev Diaries, where we might go into detail on a few… special crusades.
 

Rockphed

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VG is almost free, has an incredibly strong composition and, at least early on, has good numbers. In 1066, VG is not OP only in the hands of large blobs that have enough bodies to drown anything smaller than them. For something the size of France and England, VG or any comparable merc company would be very strong.
I personally think that Empires should be able to vassalize a mercenary company without too much rigamarole, but that Kings should have it much harder. On the other hand, the Varangian Guard being one of the trappings of Old Rome makes playing the ERE feel special.
 

Jackzee

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Dis gonna be good!!! Well done though my islamic side is triggered and wants to recover Al-Quds from those kafirs... ALLAHU AKBAR!!

Excuse me for that, I need my daily dose of tea.
 

Slime99

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I think it'd be better represented by a cb unique to hold orders, perhaps "military expedition". It could allow secular rulers to contribute funds and levies in exchange for influence in the resulting monastic state. I think it's slightly more interesting to have a holy order holding a few duchies than to just have rulers arbitrarily give them scattered counties or conquer the land themselves.
Maybe a CB similar to pressing claims for other people, but for holy orders instead. They'd gain an opinion bonus from them and the pope and you'd get a little more piety than from the regular holy war cb to encourage doing this as a player. Another feature for the CB could be an option to become a vassal of the holy order and convert to the parent religion. This has historical evidence, such as the Talavans and the Caupo of Turaida who led the Livonians.
 

DreadLindwyrm

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I'm still waiting for somebody to point out one instance in our time line where a crusade was fought and the spoils were left to a "dynastic beneficiary".

Protip: Never happened.
That's difficult.

The problem is that the Levantine Crusades were, with the exception of the first, largely intended to regain territory for the existing kingdom of Jerusalem. In game terms, they'd be Crusades with the Papal candidate being the existing holder of k_jerusalem, or maybe the claimant (if the game regarded it as having been somehow usurped).

The Baltic Crusades look more like ducky level Holy Wars than full crusades.

The Albigenesian crusade would be difficult, but would probably again 've in favour of the existing king.

Depending on how you look at it, the forming of Portugal during the reconquista might be this, depending on how much of the new king's troops came from his relatives elsewhere in (modern) Spain.

It would also be difficult to separate a case where the Pope proposes someone related to a ruler, and one where that ruler appointed a beneficiary. After all, the Pope would be expected to give his blessing to whoever was eventually successful, whether or not they were actually his choice.
 

ernst_earnest

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Well you can always put the beneficiary as commander of your troops and say you gave him so and so many men to carve out some land for himself.

On the other side we have the Dukes and Kings in Europe who had no interest to rule the Holy Land themselves but to get maybe a relative on that throne. So the game tries to mimick that with the beneficiary solution.
 

elvain

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I'm still waiting for somebody to point out one instance in our time line where a crusade was fought and the spoils were left to a "dynastic beneficiary".

Protip: Never happened.
There indeed is at least several such cases, for instance Děpolt II. Premyslid
Wiki said:
In 1187 he emigrated and came back in 1189 when Conrad II became the new duke of Bohemia.[2]

In 1189 Conrad II appointed Děpolt I to lead the Bohemian troop in the Third Crusade. The Bohemian troop joined the crusaders led by the Holy Roman Emperor Frederick Barbarossa in Esztergom, Hungary.
 
Last edited:

Sunspawn

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I personally think that Empires should be able to vassalize a mercenary company without too much rigamarole, but that Kings should have it much harder. On the other hand, the Varangian Guard being one of the trappings of Old Rome makes playing the ERE feel special.
Small issue, but the VG was a 8th or 9th century creation, it had absolutely nothing to do with Old Rome.
 

jussr

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A Crusader Kingdom is a multicultural kingdom made up of the beneficiaries of all participants. The top contributing participants will have their beneficiaries get higher titles in the target kingdom. To avoid the player gaming the system using inheritance, the Kingdom is always set up to disallow external inheritance - and the AI tends to choose beneficiaries that do not stand to inherit or are married to someone who might inherit.
Apologies if this has already been answered, but is disallowed external inheritance for that kingdom permanent? And, presumably, applicable both for some outside ruler inheriting the kingdom (or any of its lower de jure titles?) and for the kingdom's ruler (and vassals?) inheriting anything from outside?

I'm thinking of a game I recently played where I was trying to go from count to emperor while never declaring any wars, only making progress via inheritance. The king of Italy somehow became Jewish and got a crusade called against him; if that had succeeded, having a large chunk of Europe just forevermore subject to a different set of rules for who could inherit it/how its ruler could gain additional lands would have been... annoying.
 

DreadLindwyrm

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Apologies if this has already been answered, but is disallowed external inheritance for that kingdom permanent? And, presumably, applicable both for some outside ruler inheriting the kingdom (or any of its lower de jure titles?) and for the kingdom's ruler (and vassals?) inheriting anything from outside?

I'm thinking of a game I recently played where I was trying to go from count to emperor while never declaring any wars, only making progress via inheritance. The king of Italy somehow became Jewish and got a crusade called against him; if that had succeeded, having a large chunk of Europe just forevermore subject to a different set of rules for who could inherit it/how its ruler could gain additional lands would have been... annoying.
It would probably use the existing law for disallowing outside inheritance, so it could potentially be changed, and there are ways to still inherit the top title.
 

Valenten

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Okay, quickly three-four questions.
1. Is there a possibility for a non-Catholic sovereign to participate in a Catholic crusade? (Example any vassal of the ERE)
2. Can he have a complete mindfuck as in the case of a game started at the time of the first crusade (with crusaders and Turks fighting against other Crusaders and other Turks). In simple: integration of the crusaders in the merry local political life
3. If I am Duke, of Toulouse for example, and I participate in the crusade for a beneficiary; and that I am gaining a Latin state of Orient (well, Tripoli), can I choose to abdicate my original titles and will I be able to choose whether or not to continue the crusade?
4. Will there be any event so that a great sovereign (France, England, HRE) refuses to go on a crusade but still gives troops to a relative so that the latter participates as adventurer? This in order to avoid an excommunication and in the case where the sovereign in question would already have a bad opinion of the pope.

Thanks in advance,
 

klopkr

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The Holy Order, in the weird scenarios where they are the most participating members of the Crusade and there is no Official Papal Recipient, will find another person they like and give it to his/her beneficiary instead. The idea is that the Holy Orders fight for faith's sake, whereas rulers need some rewards to push them along, which is why the Holy Orders don't take any parts of the War Chest either.
They'll have ways of taking lands in northern 'cruisades' though right?

I wouldn't mind if certain kingdoms would go to the teutonics if taken in a crusade.
 

Sunspawn

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Okay, quickly three-four questions.
1. Is there a possibility for a non-Catholic sovereign to participate in a Catholic crusade? (Example any vassal of the ERE)
2. Can he have a complete mindfuck as in the case of a game started at the time of the first crusade (with crusaders and Turks fighting against other Crusaders and other Turks). In simple: integration of the crusaders in the merry local political life
3. If I am Duke, of Toulouse for example, and I participate in the crusade for a beneficiary; and that I am gaining a Latin state of Orient (well, Tripoli), can I choose to abdicate my original titles and will I be able to choose whether or not to continue the crusade?
4. Will there be any event so that a great sovereign (France, England, HRE) refuses to go on a crusade but still gives troops to a relative so that the latter participates as adventurer? This in order to avoid an excommunication and in the case where the sovereign in question would already have a bad opinion of the pope.

Thanks in advance,
1. Likely same as now, so no.
2. What, mechanically, do you want that to mean?
3. No.
4. 99% no. You can just donate funds to the war chest if you don't want to participate.
 

Mummolus

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This seems like a dumb question, and admittedly it's been a while since I've played, but...

The 'Request Crusade' button. Will it always be visible but greyed out with a date indicating when it will become available? Not having that is such a massive inconvenience.