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CK2 Dev Diary #83 - God Wills It!

Greetings!

PDXCon is soon upon us, and we hope to see you there! During the event we will reveal the name and theme of the Expansion we’re working on, and after PDXCon is over we’ll have plenty of Dev Diaries that will delve deep into the new expansion features. For now though we’d like to present the main feature of the free patch that’ll accompany the Expansion!

It is time to don your armor and ready your steed, as the Vicar of Christ himself has declared that all who join in expelling the infidel from the Holy Land will have their sins absolved!

The Crusades are a very iconic part of the game, though one that has barely seen any change since the game was released 6 years ago. A lot of fantastic and interesting systems have been added to the game over the years, and we wanted this very central feature to feel as deep and interesting as any one of them.

The Catholic faith will no longer use the old Great Holy War system - instead they will use a new and improved system specifically tailored to both increase immersion and enhance the gameplay surrounding the crusades. This system is massive, and it might be hard for us to fit all of the information into this single DD, but we’ll give it our best shot!

We have specifically aimed to fix the issue where, unless you intend to win the crusade, there was no real reason for you as a player to participate except to get the ‘Crusader’ trait.

To accomplish this we’ve made Catholic crusades work in two phases; first there is a Preparation Phase, followed by the actual war. To communicate this properly we needed a new dedicated interface. Enter, the Crusade View:

CrusadeDD_PrepPhase.png

Holy shield, on the wall, which is the holiest city of them all?

When the pope decides that it's time for a new Crusade, he will send a call to the Catholic world for support. When he does you can access the Crusade View by clicking the Crusade Banner underneath your portrait.

In the Crusade View you will have access to a plethora of useful information, and you’ll be able to take actions to help the crusade or to alter its course. You will be able to see the Pope’s proposed recipient (if any) in the top left corner, and the target character and title in the top right. There will be a timer counting down to the date where the war will start. During this time, the following can be done:
  • Catholic rulers can pledge their military support to the crusade. When they do, they appear in the list of Pledged Participants. For every crusader that pledges, prestige, piety and artifacts are added to the War Chest. The religion being targeted by the crusade can ‘counter pledge’, and it’s the relative strength of these two sides that is shown as ‘Total Strength’ underneath their portraits. Pledged rulers will automatically be called into the war as it starts.
  • All Catholic rulers get the option of donating money to the War Chest in exchange for piety and opinion with the Pope. This money is then added to the War Chest, more on that later.
  • Crusaders who have pledged military support can add a beneficiary to the crusade. This character must be a dynasty member, and depending on your participation in the crusade they might be granted a title in the Crusader Kingdom should the crusade be successful. More on this later.
  • Players can pay piety to change the target character and/or title. This cost starts fairly low, but doubles each time to avoid spamming. This means that if you’d rather have a crusade target a scary infidel realm on your immediate border, you can make it happen if you’re pious enough!
  • Players can choose their ‘Stance’ on what they want to happen should they be the most participating crusader. More on this later.

If a Catholic ruler chooses to neither pledge to the crusade or donate money to the War Chest, the Pope might get very upset with them. Depending on the rulers tier and influence, this can range from a simple piety hit to an outright excommunication. Revoking your pledge also carries a similar penalty.

Regarding the War Chest - when the preparation phase is over, 20% of the money in the War Chest will be divided between the pledged Crusaders, in order to provide for their levies and fleets as they go to war. The rest is saved until the end of the Crusade, where it is used as rewards for the participants and to set up the Crusader Kingdom. The Crusader Kingdom will receive 10% of the War Chest in order to steel them against imminent counterattacks. The rest (including prestige, piety and artifacts) is given out to the Crusaders who participated in the crusade, in order to motivate you as the player to participate as much as you can - even if you don’t expect to win. To ensure that the top contributors don't take all of the War Chest rewards, any one participant can receive at most 20% of it. As the Catholic world tends to be rather… generous with their donations, this often translates into a lot of wealth! Beware though, if the crusade is lost the majority of the contents of the War Chest will be lost, and Christendom will be weaker for it...

When the Preparation Phase is over, the war begins and the Crusade View changes:
CrusadeDD_WarPhase.png

Note that the numbers are still WIP.

The Countdown Timer is replaced by the warscore and the name of the Crusade is updated, otherwise the functionality remains the same (except for being able to change the target, of course, at this point it’s too late for that).

If the Crusade is successful, what will happen depends on the top contributor’s stance. There are three stances; ‘Selfish’, ‘For my Beneficiary’ and ‘Comply with Papal Demands’. The AI will always choose to go with Papal Demands.
  • The ‘Selfish’ stance will see the top contributor take the lands for themselves. Doing this completely disqualifies them from the War Chest though, and is seen as impious by the Pope.
  • The ‘For my Beneficiary’ stance will see your beneficiary become King/Queen of the lands. While still not approved by the Pope, it’s not seen as impious, and you still qualify for (parts) of the War Chest. If the pope has chosen no recipient for the title, this is the default behaviour and carries no penalties.
  • The ‘Comply with Papal Demands’ stance simply sees whoever the Pope wishes to rule the lands become the King or Queen. If he has no opinion, it will go to the top contributor’s beneficiary.

In the old system, the title and all under it went to the winner of the crusade. You often saw France or the HRE own for example Jerusalem, which in all honesty was very boring, and more often than not only resulted in an inheritance mess. While a player can still choose to use the old system by choosing the ‘Selfish’ stance, the new default behaviour is completely different. Unless the Pope wishes to restore an existing King or Claimant (where the normal, old, behaviour will be used) a Crusader Kingdom will be set up:

CrusadeDD_JerusalemAllSetUp.png


A Crusader Kingdom is a multicultural kingdom made up of the beneficiaries of all participants. The top contributing participants will have their beneficiaries get higher titles in the target kingdom. To avoid the player gaming the system using inheritance, the Kingdom is always set up to disallow external inheritance - and the AI tends to choose beneficiaries that do not stand to inherit or are married to someone who might inherit.

If your beneficiary receives land in a Crusader Kingdom, your entire Dynasty will receive a monthly boon to piety until their death. In a future Dev Diary we will go into more detail regarding the importance of Piety in the Catholic sphere, but rest assured that it’s going to be more important to be seen as pious than it’s ever been before - making the boon from your beneficiary rather significant.

The new ruler of the Crusader State, in order to properly rule such a challenging realm, gets a trait appropriately named ‘Crusader King/Queen’ which confers a massive same religion opinion along with some other goodies.

And, for the finale, if your beneficiary is selected to be the King or Queen of the Kingdom - you have the option of switching over to them, taking control of the newly established Crusader Kingdom and leaving your old character behind (which is also part of the reason why you can only choose members of your own dynasty as beneficiaries). We believe that doing a thing such as this will provide the quintessential CK2 experience, where you have to both manage unruly vassals and defend against vengeful religious foes!

Stay tuned for future Dev Diaries, where we might go into detail on a few… special crusades.
 

Snow Crystal

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I could be wrong, but I read it that as if your intended beneficiary won land you could swap to them.

No, it is very specifically if you are the most participating Crusader this happens. Though there seems to be a lot of people who would like to open the opportunity for lower tier beneficiaries as well.
 

Heiser

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Have you changed anything with the army AI? The crusaders often have a tendency to be defeated in detail by a Muslim doomstack instead of forming bigger armies. Largely because they arrive at different times.

And because they usually come from Ireland little couties and those who aren´t don´t seem to know how to use their boats properly.
 

Alratan

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No, it is very specifically if you are the most participating Crusader this happens. Though there seems to be a lot of people who would like to open the opportunity for lower tier beneficiaries as well.

Damn, you saw through my wishful thinking that if I said it enough, you/other developers would make it a reality without anyone being any the wiser!

That said, I don't play Ironman, so I can always just use play anyway.
 

Sunspawn

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So still no indepdent crusader states outside the target kingdom?
 

Kapitalisti

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No, it is very specifically if you are the most participating Crusader this happens. Though there seems to be a lot of people who would like to open the opportunity for lower tier beneficiaries as well.

Could be a nice option, even if "Crusader Count" doesn't have tha nice ring to it.
 

Ols

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So still no indepdent crusader states outside the target kingdom?

They've already stated that independent crusader states like the Principality of Antioch and the County of Edessa can be created dynamically during the Crusade unfolds.
 

Heiser

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I thought this game will die before receiving a proper crusading system.
Although I am not sure about the whole counter pledging thing, makes no sense historically and just turns the whole idea of an epic march to jerusalem into an eu4 style league war. Also an ability for multiple mini crusader states to pop up from occupied areas would be nice.

Minicrusader states is a good idea. Maybe created by giving dukes and counts from the realm the option to split appart upon victory, and the king of the target realm getting claims on them? Or formed in those occupied holdings belonging to defendants but out of the target realm?
 
Last edited:

EU3NOOB

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well historically it was more like Byzantium did their own Holy/De Jure/Claim Wars to take back their lost territory in Anatolia while the Catholics were wrecking shit in the Holy Land.

Nope. The Crusaders were the ones doing the heavy lifting against the Turks on their way to the Holy Land. It's why the Crusade was called in the first place.

Hell, they were nominally supposed to hand over all previously Byzantine territory back over to ERE control and that technically was supposed to include the Holy Land itself, but the Byzantines abandoned the Crusaders before Antioch.
 

Heiser

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If Catholicism is getting an overhaul, perhaps we could see some fixes to the pre-schism Catholic-Orthodox split?

Maybe?

Maybe starting in early dates with the pentarcs + Bishop of Rome and getting an event at some point giving you the option to become Ortodox or Catholic, like when pagans reform the religion. The AI would choose following historical parameters, Catholics in the west, Orthodox in the east.
 

iniudan

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I also think this new crusade feature should be implemented for jihads, otherwise Chistianity would only have advantages. It´s already annoying to see countries north of the Mediterranean always conquer Valencia, Murcia, Tanger, Africa; Byzantine Empire always defeating the Turks... and not the other way around.

The new crusade mechanic doesn't work with Islam, Muslim tend to congregate under powerful autocratic ruler, due to their very open CB and their succession method. With them the one who win the Jihad is usually just the closest Muslim ruler to the target.
 

Sunspawn

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They've already stated that independent crusader states like the Principality of Antioch and the County of Edessa can be created dynamically during the Crusade unfolds.
Not in the opening post and sifting through 19 pages of replies is not my idea of a productive use of my time.
 

Automorphisme

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A lot of people here are asking for a great schism event.

Just keep in mind that differences and tensions between greek and latine christians had been significant since the beginning of the High Middle Ages. The Great Schism is not a break but the logical result of those feuds ; in fact it didn't make much noise.

To be honest the actual system is closer to History than a simple unified Chalcedonian faith.
 

Aardvark Bellay

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Not in the opening post and sifting through 19 pages of replies is not my idea of a productive use of my time.

Select "Show only Dev responses" at the top.
Much shorter list of posts and only official ones.

See especialy posts # 122, 133, 147.
 

Gnostiko

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Hell, they were nominally supposed to hand over all previously Byzantine territory back over to ERE control and that technically was supposed to include the Holy Land itself, but the Byzantines abandoned the Crusaders before Antioch.

It's highly unlikely the Byzzies would seriously have pressed for any territorial gains in Outremer. Although the First Crusade leaders were persuaded to swear an oath promising the return of any captured territories, it's probable that Alexios I mostly had Anatolia in mind, with Antioch as the end point i.e. reversing territorial losses to the Seljuqs. Reclaiming Antioch from the Franks was always high on the list of Komnenoi priorities, but they were happy to deal with Jerusalem as an independent kingdom, even participating in joint military operations, unlike Antioch which was viewed as a vassal.

I expect an achievement for successfully changing the Crusade's target to Byzantine-held Greece when playing as Venice!

Eh, seems too easy to pull off. Given PDX's fondness for weird circumstance/alt-history achievements I'd rather they had one for successfully beating a hijacked Crusade against Constantinople.


As psyched as I am for this: devs, will non-Catholic (e.g. Orthodox) Christians be getting any goodies?
 
Last edited:

Ols

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Not in the opening post and sifting through 19 pages of replies is not my idea of a productive use of my time.

Use the sort by dev replies option at the top right of the thread. It's on the first page of dev replies.
 

Matthias_Wlkp

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No, it is very specifically if you are the most participating Crusader this happens. Though there seems to be a lot of people who would like to open the opportunity for lower tier beneficiaries as well.

Is is a big deal to do this? What would stop you from including lower beneficiaries in this event?
 

Andrzej I

Ætheling
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After seeing the responses to it, we have discussed the topic internally. We will add it for lower tier beneficiaries as well.
It's this sort of responsiveness that makes Paradox my favorite game company :)