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CK2 Dev Diary #83 - God Wills It!

Greetings!

PDXCon is soon upon us, and we hope to see you there! During the event we will reveal the name and theme of the Expansion we’re working on, and after PDXCon is over we’ll have plenty of Dev Diaries that will delve deep into the new expansion features. For now though we’d like to present the main feature of the free patch that’ll accompany the Expansion!

It is time to don your armor and ready your steed, as the Vicar of Christ himself has declared that all who join in expelling the infidel from the Holy Land will have their sins absolved!

The Crusades are a very iconic part of the game, though one that has barely seen any change since the game was released 6 years ago. A lot of fantastic and interesting systems have been added to the game over the years, and we wanted this very central feature to feel as deep and interesting as any one of them.

The Catholic faith will no longer use the old Great Holy War system - instead they will use a new and improved system specifically tailored to both increase immersion and enhance the gameplay surrounding the crusades. This system is massive, and it might be hard for us to fit all of the information into this single DD, but we’ll give it our best shot!

We have specifically aimed to fix the issue where, unless you intend to win the crusade, there was no real reason for you as a player to participate except to get the ‘Crusader’ trait.

To accomplish this we’ve made Catholic crusades work in two phases; first there is a Preparation Phase, followed by the actual war. To communicate this properly we needed a new dedicated interface. Enter, the Crusade View:

CrusadeDD_PrepPhase.png

Holy shield, on the wall, which is the holiest city of them all?

When the pope decides that it's time for a new Crusade, he will send a call to the Catholic world for support. When he does you can access the Crusade View by clicking the Crusade Banner underneath your portrait.

In the Crusade View you will have access to a plethora of useful information, and you’ll be able to take actions to help the crusade or to alter its course. You will be able to see the Pope’s proposed recipient (if any) in the top left corner, and the target character and title in the top right. There will be a timer counting down to the date where the war will start. During this time, the following can be done:
  • Catholic rulers can pledge their military support to the crusade. When they do, they appear in the list of Pledged Participants. For every crusader that pledges, prestige, piety and artifacts are added to the War Chest. The religion being targeted by the crusade can ‘counter pledge’, and it’s the relative strength of these two sides that is shown as ‘Total Strength’ underneath their portraits. Pledged rulers will automatically be called into the war as it starts.
  • All Catholic rulers get the option of donating money to the War Chest in exchange for piety and opinion with the Pope. This money is then added to the War Chest, more on that later.
  • Crusaders who have pledged military support can add a beneficiary to the crusade. This character must be a dynasty member, and depending on your participation in the crusade they might be granted a title in the Crusader Kingdom should the crusade be successful. More on this later.
  • Players can pay piety to change the target character and/or title. This cost starts fairly low, but doubles each time to avoid spamming. This means that if you’d rather have a crusade target a scary infidel realm on your immediate border, you can make it happen if you’re pious enough!
  • Players can choose their ‘Stance’ on what they want to happen should they be the most participating crusader. More on this later.

If a Catholic ruler chooses to neither pledge to the crusade or donate money to the War Chest, the Pope might get very upset with them. Depending on the rulers tier and influence, this can range from a simple piety hit to an outright excommunication. Revoking your pledge also carries a similar penalty.

Regarding the War Chest - when the preparation phase is over, 20% of the money in the War Chest will be divided between the pledged Crusaders, in order to provide for their levies and fleets as they go to war. The rest is saved until the end of the Crusade, where it is used as rewards for the participants and to set up the Crusader Kingdom. The Crusader Kingdom will receive 10% of the War Chest in order to steel them against imminent counterattacks. The rest (including prestige, piety and artifacts) is given out to the Crusaders who participated in the crusade, in order to motivate you as the player to participate as much as you can - even if you don’t expect to win. To ensure that the top contributors don't take all of the War Chest rewards, any one participant can receive at most 20% of it. As the Catholic world tends to be rather… generous with their donations, this often translates into a lot of wealth! Beware though, if the crusade is lost the majority of the contents of the War Chest will be lost, and Christendom will be weaker for it...

When the Preparation Phase is over, the war begins and the Crusade View changes:
CrusadeDD_WarPhase.png

Note that the numbers are still WIP.

The Countdown Timer is replaced by the warscore and the name of the Crusade is updated, otherwise the functionality remains the same (except for being able to change the target, of course, at this point it’s too late for that).

If the Crusade is successful, what will happen depends on the top contributor’s stance. There are three stances; ‘Selfish’, ‘For my Beneficiary’ and ‘Comply with Papal Demands’. The AI will always choose to go with Papal Demands.
  • The ‘Selfish’ stance will see the top contributor take the lands for themselves. Doing this completely disqualifies them from the War Chest though, and is seen as impious by the Pope.
  • The ‘For my Beneficiary’ stance will see your beneficiary become King/Queen of the lands. While still not approved by the Pope, it’s not seen as impious, and you still qualify for (parts) of the War Chest. If the pope has chosen no recipient for the title, this is the default behaviour and carries no penalties.
  • The ‘Comply with Papal Demands’ stance simply sees whoever the Pope wishes to rule the lands become the King or Queen. If he has no opinion, it will go to the top contributor’s beneficiary.

In the old system, the title and all under it went to the winner of the crusade. You often saw France or the HRE own for example Jerusalem, which in all honesty was very boring, and more often than not only resulted in an inheritance mess. While a player can still choose to use the old system by choosing the ‘Selfish’ stance, the new default behaviour is completely different. Unless the Pope wishes to restore an existing King or Claimant (where the normal, old, behaviour will be used) a Crusader Kingdom will be set up:

CrusadeDD_JerusalemAllSetUp.png


A Crusader Kingdom is a multicultural kingdom made up of the beneficiaries of all participants. The top contributing participants will have their beneficiaries get higher titles in the target kingdom. To avoid the player gaming the system using inheritance, the Kingdom is always set up to disallow external inheritance - and the AI tends to choose beneficiaries that do not stand to inherit or are married to someone who might inherit.

If your beneficiary receives land in a Crusader Kingdom, your entire Dynasty will receive a monthly boon to piety until their death. In a future Dev Diary we will go into more detail regarding the importance of Piety in the Catholic sphere, but rest assured that it’s going to be more important to be seen as pious than it’s ever been before - making the boon from your beneficiary rather significant.

The new ruler of the Crusader State, in order to properly rule such a challenging realm, gets a trait appropriately named ‘Crusader King/Queen’ which confers a massive same religion opinion along with some other goodies.

And, for the finale, if your beneficiary is selected to be the King or Queen of the Kingdom - you have the option of switching over to them, taking control of the newly established Crusader Kingdom and leaving your old character behind (which is also part of the reason why you can only choose members of your own dynasty as beneficiaries). We believe that doing a thing such as this will provide the quintessential CK2 experience, where you have to both manage unruly vassals and defend against vengeful religious foes!

Stay tuned for future Dev Diaries, where we might go into detail on a few… special crusades.
 

iniudan

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What is the behaviour like if you are a republic who supports a beneficiary? Does your relative become feudal, or could the Crusader State (or even Crusader Kingdom) be created as a merchant republic?

Probably feudal, nobility is higher then burgher, so why would your beneficiary want a republic ?

And why would you want them to be a republic anyway, that just more competition.

But if you earn the top title for yourself it just become part of the republic I would guess.
 

Snow Crystal

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Probably feudal, nobility is higher then burgher, so why would your beneficiary want a republic ?

And why would you want them to be a republic anyway, that just more competition.

But if you earn the top title for yourself it just become part of the republic I would guess.

This is pretty spot on, yes.
 

Oorlog

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You guys werent lying when you mentioned this weeks DD would be very juicy. Cant wait to hear what you will do with further crusade mechanics.
 

Enriador

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@Snow Crystal, will there be any negatives in joining Crusades?
 

Snow Crystal

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A further thought, if you're a duke-tier republic who is the biggest contributor and claim it for yourself, do you stay a republic (now king-tier), or does it switch you to a feudal king?

They will continue being a Merchant Republic, now king-tier.

@Snow Crystal, will there be any negatives in joining Crusades?

Well, not outright? It is like all wars, it will take time and resources, so that could be a negative if there are other bad circumstances, I guess, but we have tried to make Crusades into an event that you want to take part in.
 

Keizer Harm

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transylvanier

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Here are some of my thoughts/concerns:

1. The warchest system makes no real sense historically, you should not get any of the remaining war chest unless you end up controlling land in the crusader state yourself. I agree that participation should be incentivized but not out of donated war chest money. Instead you could argue it is already incentivized with titles (earned for yourself or for your dynasty), with the value of removing infidels from strategically/economically/theologically important places, with the value of spreading your religion, with piety/prestige rewards, with the loot gained by your armies as they rampage through the target lands (this will be the main monetary compensation), with opinion modifiers with other christians, and with crusader traits.

During the war, the war chest should get used up as it should be used to finance holy orders, and the upkeep of crusading armies specifically designated as such (via a new toggle button) which would no longer cost their owner money for the duration of the war but instead draw funds out of the war chest. The chest should be able to be refilled and replenished through further donations as the war is ongoing, and when it goes empty the armies should start going rogue (unless they are led by a player character or an independent landed ruler), establishing own realms in crusader controlled enemy territory or even (if for example they are still in christian territory) start attacking/raiding non-catholic christians/non-participating catholics, possibly in an attempt to establish independent realms there, fourth crusade style.

Mechanically this could perhaps be implemented as crusader armies turning into adventurer-like stacks that raid or declare war on whichever eligible target is nearest.

At the end of a successful war, funds that were not spent should only go to holy orders and to the newly established rulers in the holy land. The european powers themselves should not get any of the war chest unless they directly gain land, as their rewards should be limited to the incentives i described above (loot and piety and prestige and traits being the most important). Also, the war chest should not simply disappear in case of a lost crusade, instead it should be given to the enemy side's participants as reparations.


2. The balance is really going to be skewed hard in favor of catholics now since there will be way too many participants seeking rewards, especially if non-participation is penalized. This is ahistorical since most rulers actually didn't care all that much about the crusades, with the exception of a few with extraordinary zeal, or those with powerful realms seeking to increase their prestige, their standing with the pope, and to return with plunder, or younger sons who didn't stand to inherit anything. Everyone else mostly had more important conflicts they had to worry about close to home, either internal politics or outside threats.

The probability of AI rulers joining should depend on their power/size, their personality traits, and political interest factors such as distance from the target realm, importance of target realm, being busy with other wars, etc. I also believe a system needs to be implemented to keep crusades' size proportional to the importance of their goal, as not all crusades were equally important to the entire catholic world historically. The baltic crusades for example were more of a local conflict between the hre/teutons and the baltic pagans. Perhaps for targets of lower importance, the probability of joining would decrease more strongly with distance.

I also believe that non-participation should not be penalized in certain cases, such as if you're a smaller, weaker realm, or a realm already involved in ongoing conflicts with infidels, e.g. christian realms bordering infidels should be considered exempt since they are already doing their part by being in regular conflict with and holding the line against the infidels at their borders (think of spain or the baltic).


3. The jihads and great holy wars should also get an overhaul, however i don't think they should use the same system as this catholic system wouldn't make sense for them as is. Some elements of this system which would make sense and could be implemented are: donating to the war participants for piety, having a couple years of preparation time before they fire, and the possibility for great holy wars and jihads to sometimes end up creating new independent realms (e.g. when the participant with the highest participation is not an independent ruler, that participant should have the option to abdicate his current titles in favor of becoming independent as the new realm). At the very least, even if you leave the previous system as is, you could still package it nicely and give them a cool fancy new war window like the crusades now just so they don't feel so inferior.

4. I think this is a great time to point out that the catholic/orthodox distinction is not historical pre-1066. Christianity needs to be treated as united in the pre-1066 start dates as chalcedonian christianity, as until the great schism the church was more or less united and bishop of rome was just the bishop of rome, not yet the pope. If starting in these earlier dates we could have great schism event that would not fire at a fixed date but according to a buildup of conflict and animosity between the west and the patriarchates of the east. Mechanically this could be handled like EU4's reformation desire: this conflict meter would increase the chance of the schism firing, the higher the tensions get through events, decisions, etc.
 

Rways

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This is great, but if the next expansion is about mainly about Catholics can we get more eastern catholic presence? I would love to have the Maronites, which are only simulated in the game through another heresy
 

Ols

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This is great, but if the next expansion is about mainly about Catholics can we get more eastern catholic presence? I would love to have the Maronites, which are only simulated in the game through another heresy

That'd be nice. Events to show religious disputes between Christian sects in the Holy Land would be welcome and provide a uniqueness to being the Kingdom of Jerusalem or one of its vassals as compared to simply being a European Catholic Kingdom.
 

Matthias_Wlkp

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If I read correctly, you will not be able to switch characters, unless you win the crusade, correct?

I wish you could switch to a character that at least got a county. That would be an awesome change, or last resort in case you messed up inheritance and were about to lose the game...
 

Heiser

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Very nice improvement.

I'd suggest that we have the option to change to our beneficiary or stay playing with the current character always, not only when the beneficiary is the king of the conquered land, but also in case he gets elected as duke or count in the new realm. Not only that, but also being able to play as the beneficiary in the newly acquired lands and leave behind the former demense, ruled by the lord we were playing before switching to the beneficiary.

As the new expansion seems to be focused on Christianity, I'd also suggest that memebers of the Dominican Order be able to perform an investigation on characters to try to discover if they are heretics or demon worshipers by using society points and, if they are already suspected or known heretics, put them on trial and execute them. Point costs would vary according to degree of suspectedness, rank of suspicious character; opinion costs would be incurred upon with suspected charcter dynasty members; changes in influence and relationship with the Pope; etc.

I also think this new crusade feature should be implemented for jihads, otherwise Chistianity would only have advantages. It´s already annoying to see countries north of the Mediterranean always conquer Valencia, Murcia, Tanger, Africa; Byzantine Empire always defeating the Turks... and not the other way around.

More county granulation in Africa would also be interesting. The region doesn't seem to be interesting to play in as it is right now. The same happens with the spteepes and the nomads we find there.

That thing about more special crusades seems to be interesting. Crusades and jihads in the Iberian Peninsula like Reconquista, Almoravid and Almohade invasions; crusades and jihads in the Byzantine Empire like the 4th one or turk invasions, the Ottomans; the Holy Land like Saladin's reconquest; the northern crusades. There could be more starting dates if needed.

It would be interesting to be able to play landed holy orders like the Teutonic Order; Knights of Malta in Cyprus, Rodas or Malta; the Hassassin; or even the Pope. And link all this with the new relevance piety will have in the game. Starting a game with an unlanded nomad seems interesting also.

Also, if at game start more low rank lords such as counts were vailable it would be graet, instead of them being generated after the game is started, because people who like starting from count level and playing with reduced demense rule would have more options when choosing ruler.
 

Alratan

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1. The warchest system makes no real sense historically, you should not get any of the remaining war chest unless you end up controlling land in the crusader state yourself.

I'm not sure I agree, as many crusaders came home and at the very least had significant fame, but I think many of them came home with loot, too. Mind you, most of them also mortgaged or sold their possessions so go on the crusade, so whether they came out as a net positive is a different matter, but that would hopefully be represented by the cost of levies maintenance (although this is probably too cheap).

During the war, the war chest should get used up as it should be used to finance holy orders, and the upkeep of crusading armies specifically designated as such (via a new toggle button) which would no longer cost their owner money for the duration of the war but instead draw funds out of the war chest.

A percentage of the war chest is not distributed, I believe, representing the gold which is lost in the endeavour. I think your idea is nice, but probably more effort than it is worth.

The probability of AI rulers joining should depend on their power/size, their personality traits, and political interest factors such as distance from the target realm, importance of target realm, being busy with other wars, etc. I also believe a system needs to be implemented to keep crusades' size proportional to the importance of their goal, as not all crusades were equally important to the entire catholic world historically. The baltic crusades for example were more of a local conflict between the hre/teutons and the baltic pagans. Perhaps for targets of lower importance, the probability of joining would decrease more strongly with distance.

I also believe that non-participation should not be penalized in certain cases, such as if you're a smaller, weaker realm, or a realm already involved in ongoing conflicts with infidels, e.g. christian realms bordering infidels should be considered exempt since they are already doing their part by being in regular conflict with and holding the line against the infidels at their borders (think of spain or the baltic).

I agree with this in part, but I also think that the opposite should be true in some ways - in the First Crusade, there were no kings present - nor even any Dukes except for Godfrey, and he essentially gave up his Duchy in the process. I actually think that Kings shouldn't get harsh penalties until after a crusade has been successful, to represent this.

If I read correctly, you will not be able to switch characters, unless you win the crusade, correct?

I wish you could switch to a character that at least got a county. That would be an awesome change, or last resort in case you messed up inheritance and were about to lose the game...

I could be wrong, but I read it that as if your intended beneficiary won land you could swap to them.
 

Kapitalisti

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Would it ever be possible that an AI of your dynasty could name you as their beneficiary?

No, since the beneficiary has to be unlanded. You cannot be unlanded.