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CK2 Dev Diary #68: Taming the Dragon

Greetings!

Today I’d like to talk about what you can do should you decide that being in the Emperor’s good graces isn’t a priority. While most characters will want to pay tribute to China in order to reap benefits over a longer time, certain characters would rather give that up for short-term gain - or simply think themselves a contender to the Middle Kingdom…

You can take Hostile Actions towards China by entering a special menu located next to the portrait of the Western Governor in the China Screen. In this menu you will exclusively find actions that in one way or another displeases the Emperor - the most basic of examples being the decision to declare a war to free yourself from being an Imperial Tributary.
Hostile Actions.png


The three most interesting Hostile Actions you can take are the following three ones; Raiding China, Forcing China to Open Up and Invading China.

Raiding China
This action can only be taken if you own a province within a certain Geographical region, which includes Tibet, Mongolia and Eastern India. When you choose to Raid China, you give up a portion of your Levy and Levy Regain Rate (Manpower if Nomadic), a significant chunk of your Trade Income should you own any Silk Road Trade Posts, and the ability to Pay Tribute or Ask for Boons. You will also lose a static amount of Grace every month you Raid China. Raiding China will also paint a target on your head - should China go on the warpath, they might just visit you first...

When Raiding China you will, each year, receive loot taken from the outskirts of the Middle Kingdom. A random amount of Gold, Prestige and other treasures can be found when Raiding, making the interaction particularly attractive for smaller realms (i.e. the tribal peoples in Northern Tibet) and Nomads (as they rely heavily on prestige, and lack many sources of income).

There are many potential outcomes when Raiding China, while most often you will receive a modest amount of gold and prestige, sometimes you will receive something altogether more rare - your raiders can bring home vast treasures, artifacts, siege engineers (of questionable loyalty), concubines or even beasts from the Chinese wilderness…
Raiding China.png


Forcing China to Open Up
If China should turn inwards and become Isolationist you might find your empire without the massive benefits of the Silk Road. If you’re strong enough, you can try and make China open up the Silk Road again. This can be done in a multitude of ways - all which start with you negotiating with them:

Peaceful Negotiation - The Emperor might demand something from you in exchange for opening up - for example that you become his Tributary, or that you send back all Chinese characters in your court, etc.

War - If negotiations fail, you can decide to attack China in order to make them open up. This will act much like a normal war against China, with them bringing in forces from China proper to teach you a lesson in humility.

Being Sovereign on the Silk Road - If you control enough of the Silk Road yourself, you might decide to simply open the Silk Road again. This will NOT please China, who might retaliate with military force.

Should you succeed in opening up the Silk Road you will become Favored in Trade for a significant amount of years, increasing your Trade Post income by 100%.

Invading China
Invading China is no easy task - and reserved exclusively for massive empires with vast armies. Similarly to the Mongols, Invading China can be seen as an ‘end-game boss’, only that the war is started on your terms - when you feel ready to take them on.

In order to Invade China it needs to be either Stable or in a Golden Age, as this war represents less of an opportunistic land-grab and more a clash of titans. As China isn’t on the map, you will not be able to seize the Dragon Throne for your own character - but you will be able to seize it for your Dynasty! Before declaring the invasion, you select a Dynasty member (who doesn’t stand to inherit any land) to be the pretender to the Middle Kingdom.
Invade China.png


For as long as the war is going on, you will have a massive penalty to your Levy Regain rate (simulating troops seizing China Proper). In response, China will send a massive force westwards to challenge your armies - this army is vast, composed of high-quality troops and led by the very best Chinese commanders. The war itself focuses on battles and supremacy on the battlefield, rather than sieges - you will not be able to win this type of war by blitzing the lands of the Western Protectorate (should it have any), and neither will China be able to win it by just sieging your holdings. Typically, you will have to defeat about 75% of China's forces, along with reclaiming everything they might have sieged from you, in order to secure a victory.

Long-time players of CK2 might be vary of such a war, as the AI in CK2 tended to gather up all their troops in one massive doomstack - either suiciding to attrition, or in the case of attrition-free troops steamroll the opposition. After having playtested the Invasion we decided to revamp the AI in situations where it commands vast amounts of troops - they will now try and respect supply limits, though they will still want to stick close to other units and support them in potential battles. The following screenshot displays the new behaviour:
Chinese Troops Arrive.png


This means that to defeat China, your best bet is to lure them into mountain passes or use other terrain to your advantage.

If you win the Invasion of China, you will receive VAST rewards. You will immediately get a massive amount of gold, grace, prestige and artifacts (including all top-quality Chinese artifacts). You will also personally take any land the Western Protectorate might have had in the west. Your pretender will rise to the throne of China, forming a new Chinese-style dynasty, and your dynasty will be guaranteed to rule for at the very least 200 years. For as long as your dynasty rules, all landed members of your dynasty will receive a significant amount of grace every month - allowing them to tap into the vast resources of China much more easily than they would otherwise. Having your Dynasty on the throne also (practically…) guarantees that China won’t ever take hostile actions against you or your Dynasty.
Turkish China.png


Note that in addition to these hostile actions, remember that you can always attack China with normal CBs, seizing the land of the Western Protectorate. That, however, is a thing you would be wise to do while China is suffering from some kind of disaster, as then they’ll be able to call upon much fewer troops than if they would be stable.
 

klopkr

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So who owns China in Mongol start dates? Is Genghis off map now?

I think there should be an option to make your ruler become the Chinese emperor and start playing as his heir (with the spawn heir for china). It's not like it could be abused seeing as it's basically a suicide button you have to win the game to get and can only use once every 200 years.
 

Kumicho

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Turkish%20China.png

one historical mistake on this picture
The emperor should wear his culture's hat and clothes(nomadic)
If he becomes Han culture, he should use Han hairstyle
Right now, He looks so odd. A nomadic hairstyle emperor wear the Han hat and clothes
Same thing When Jurchen rule China in the game. Jurchen emperor and commander should wear their own culture's hat and clothes, keep Jurchen hairstyle
PDS please fix it.

Actually, the one historical mistake in that picture is that the Emperor "dislikes concubines". Pretty sure no emperor ever disliked concubines. :D
 

Thure

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So who owns China in Mongol start dates? Is Genghis off map now?

I think there should be an option to make your ruler become the Chinese emperor and start playing as his heir (with the spawn heir for china). It's not like it could be abused seeing as it's basically a suicide button you have to win the game to get and can only use once every 200 years.

Genghis was NEVER ruler of China... It was only Kublai Khan and he can easily portrayed as Off Map.
 

loup99

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Very pleased by this functionality, even though some details on name generation and graphics could still see further improvement. Will be great to be able to play around with this! The AI being better at handling doomstacks is also something which will come in handy for modded situations, so it is particularly welcome.
 

Keizer Harm

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Genghis was NEVER ruler of China... It was only Kublai Khan and he can easily portrayed as Off Map.
Though if they call Kublai's on-map holdings "Western Protectorate" I may become nauseous...
 

klopkr

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Genghis was NEVER ruler of China... It was only Kublai Khan and he can easily portrayed as Off Map.
Hmm you know I didn't think about it that way. He ruled the north but they're just going to make the Song the rulers of china aren't they?

But when Jurchens control northern China they become the Chinese Emperor no? So does Northern China count as Emperor of China or not?
 

yonderTheGreat

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The continuation of the lamentations of those who don't know better (those who think the base game is incomplete and obviously haven't played it much... not those of us who know it's awesome) continues.

In other words, I hate to be "that guy" but... do we have an idea on release yet? Not necessarily a singular date obviously but maybe a month or season?
 

Black Turtle

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The continuation of the lamentations of those who don't know better (those who think the base game is incomplete and obviously haven't played it much... not those of us who know it's awesome) continues.

In other words, I hate to be "that guy" but... do we have an idea on release yet? Not necessarily a singular date obviously but maybe a month or season?

Probably mid October given the limited scope of this DLC. The only thing I can think of that they haven't covered in a dev diary yet is the Chinese Imperial government form.

So one more dev diary, and then another diary for patch notes. And then probably another week or two until release.
 

Caeserion

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Force China to Open Up

Open the country. Stop having it be closed.



I'm super excited for this. A couple of questions though:

1) If after placing a relative on the dragon throne, you lose your empire titles to elective succession or whatever, are you still the head of the dynasty?
1a) How will it work with decadence? If I'm muslim and my dynasty gets a decadence revolt then does China get one too?
1b) If we're both catholic will he interact with the pope. Can he nominate bishops as pope? Can he request the pope for a claim on my title and invade me?

2) Does the invasion force scale in number relative to your size, number of troops you possess, or tech level for that time period?
3) If you are a religion that doesn't do concubinage/multiple wives can you still offer concubines? The interaction isn't available with other pagans iirc so just checking
4) Can you install your bastard son as the emperor? He's part of your dynasty but also not?
5) Do I get any cool nicknames for invading china/forcing it to open up?

And I don't think I've said it before but thanks a lot!
 
Last edited:

Interamna

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The Katabasis is now closer than ever :D
 

Naughtius Maximus

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Europe has always been immensely fleshed out. The Catholics have some of the bigges features. The Orthodox can beat the Pope into submission. The Byzantine Empire has its own EP. The Crusades against the Muslims are critical game-changing events. There are dozens of On-Action Events that fire for rulers. The Normans have their own bookmarks. The Fourth Crusade has its own bookmark. The Karlings rule Europe in the early starts. Charlemagne has his own bookmark. Don't forget all the Vikings and their immense development.

It's like you've never played the game. They never abandoned Europe: Europe has always been at the forefront because it was the master of the Old World outside of Asia. Europe is the most developed area, as it should be.

I like your premise but have giant question marks about your conclusion.

Master of the old world outside Asia? You mean the Middle East? Because in this time period the Middle East was much more developed and much more important and influencial to Eurasia than Europe. I get that Europe is the most fleshed out because most customers are only interested in European history but come on, it's feudal for a reason.
 

liredarion

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Ah, here I am reassured. The little novelty of the stream concerning the possibility of reforming in a "imperial Chinese government" has definitely acquired me to this dlc. What frightened me, above all, was not to be able to annihilate China. Now that this is settled, I look forward to this dlc hihihi. Do we have an idea of the release date ? (The question that is under each dev diary and which must annoy everyone at the highest point)
 
Last edited:

BFKelleher

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Is there a list of Chinese Empire names along with culture (such as Mongol - Yuan, Jurchen - Jin, etc)?

It seems kind of strange that what looks like a Turk can take over the Chinese Empire and then it's called the Han empire. Shouldn't it be called something else rather than named after the empires of the Han culture?
 

EricTheGreat12

First Lieutenant
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It was at this start and that is why I am intensely irritated at this new DLC focused entirely on interaction between the player as a nationstate and China as a nationstate. Every single mechanic in Jade Dragon could be used in EUIV without the slightest change. That really shows how irrelevant characters have become to CKII. The change just happened slowly enough that a lot of people didn't notice.

Yay, I get a bunch of mechanics that are absolutely not dependent on other characters! BTW, can you name me a single king during the timeframe of the game who joined a society?

Meanwhile there was an actual society of great historical importance called the Knight Templar whose maritime activities and moneylending were very important and neither of which are represented in game...

FTFY

K. Before everyone stabs each other on this forum, can we just get it out of the way that Monks and Mystics was bad ? I know that I mention that a lot, but the truth is that the expansion was terrible and is still unfinished, making it one of the worst expansions (IN MY OPINION) to this day.

@keynes2.0 Do you understand how good this Jade Dragon DLC will be for Eastern Characters? There is currently 0 reason to play as a nomad in the Steppes as of now, simply because they have nothing to offer. At least with the expansions, these characters will have some life brought into them..
 

LeSingeAffame

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K. Before everyone stabs each other on this forum, can we just get it out of the way that Monks and Mystics was bad ? I know that I mention that a lot, but the truth is that the expansion was terrible and is still unfinished, making it one of the worst expansions (IN MY OPINION) to this day.
So you try to make your statement the truth, and then tell it's your personal opinion ?