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CK2 Dev Diary #67: Revisiting the Middle East

Greetings everyone!

I’m Emil “Servancour” Tisander. Most of you might remember me from the update I did to Hungary and the Danube with the release of 2.7. This time however, I wanted to do something of a larger scope, and with the expansion focusing on the eastern part of the map, what better time to revisit the Middle East and bring it a much needed overhaul?

Those of you who watch the streams might already have seen most of what I’ll show you here but I’ll start by explaining what I’ve done and why.

I had a few goals in mind when I started working on the update. First and foremost I wanted to improve the overall geography and move counties to where they are supposed to be. Some having been placed much too far from their actual location (I’m looking at you Damascus). Secondly, there are plenty of titles in the region that are inappropriately named for the time period, so I wanted to go through what makes sense and what doesn’t to improve the historical accuracy as much as possible. Another thing I wanted to do was to split up the kingdom of Persia somewhat. Persia in CK2 has always been a very large kingdom. Splitting it up into several kingdoms will allow for a more dynamic experience.

Empires remain very much the same, though both the Persian Empire and the Arabian Empire have been increased somewhat in size, due to the addition of new counties. Kingdoms however, have been changed quite significantly. The following kingdoms have been added or renamed accordingly:
Added the kingdoms of Daylam, Khorasan, Iraq and Yemen.
Renamed Mesopotamia to Al-Jazira, Afghanistan to Kabulistan, Baluchistan to Sistan, Khiva to Transoxiana.

01_kingdoms.png


The county layout is also something that you will notice has changed dramatically. Gone are all the weirdly shaped counties, that would either look like a square or be stretched into all manner of shapes. Every single county in the region has been moved and/or reshaped. The single most noticeable addition will be the Syrian desert. Which, in my opinion, is needed to make sure that the surrounding counties can be placed and shaped properly.

02_syrian_desert.png


As much as I would like to, I won’t go into detail for all changes I’ve done to the counties. But I’ll highlight some of the more major ones.

Both Fergana and Khuttal are now full-fledged duchies, with three and four counties, respectively.

03_fergana_khuttal.png


Several new counties have been added to Yemen, which consists of the duchies Sanaa, Taizz and Hadramut.

04_yemen.png


The duchy of Medina is renamed to Hijaz and got three new coastal counties added, making the duchy consist of six counties in total.

05_hijaz.png


We’ve also decided to increase the number of counties in the Tarim Basin, in order to make the area more fun and interesting to play in. It has about twice the number of counties compared to the old setup.

06_tarim_basin.png

07_tarim_basin.png


That’s some of the biggest changes that you’ll see on the map which is, as always for map updates, a part of the free 2.8 patch. Bear in mind that it’s still a bit of a work in progress. Some counties are likely to get another set of name changes and other tweaks.

Finally, I would like to give a shout out to @elvain, who helped me with a lot of research. Making this update possible to do to such an extent.

Don’t forget to tune into the Medieval Monday streams 16:00-18:00 (CEST)! During which you can poke me if you want to see a specific region or have any other questions.
 

Thure

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Call it Sogdiana or Turan. Trans- is too Latin for me.

It's just the translated ARAB name. Otherwise we have to rename Egypt to Misr too, that's not even a translation.
Mawarannahr (Land Beyond the River)

On the subject of the Middle East...

I really would like to see the Arabian Empire lose its African territory; it is much too big compared to other de jure empires. I would love it if Egypt, Kingdom of Africa, and Mauretania were formed into a new Empire of Africa/North Africa/Libya (name WIP) with Tunis as the de jure capital. I would also like to see Culture groups altered to reflect those changes; i.e. make Egyptian and Berber a new North African group to mirror the West African and East African groups, do something with the nonsensical "Andalusian" culture. Andalusian in particular bugs me because the common people in Iberia during the era of Muslim rule would probably have the same appearance as Christian Spaniards, and the Muslim rulers would have mixed heritage and varying appearances; the Muslim scholar Ibn Hazm wrote that many Umayyad caliphs had blond hair and blue eyes, inherited from their European mothers. Anyway, the point is that lower class Iberian Muslims had almost no strong connection to Arab traditions besides a shared language and religion.

Egypt has WAY more in Common with the Levant and Arabia than with Africa. It would make NO sense to merge Egypt or Egyptians with the Maghreb. Neither politically nor culturally. It makes no sense to put African Arabs in the same cultural group than Berber. And it makes no sense to put Egypt in the same Empire as the Maghreb. Nearly all egyptian rulers had a way closer connection to the Levante and to the Hejaz than to the Maghreb.

And Andalusian culture make sense for Arabized Iberians.
 

elvain

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I see.
In Russian this place is more called Mawarannahr, while I find this name is unpronounced. :)
I believe you know that Mawarannahr is basically the Arabic translation of Transoxiana, right?

Call it Sogdiana or Turan. Trans- is too Latin for me.
Soghdiana should be name used by Sohgdians, just like it should be called Fararud if owned by Persians or Mawarannahr, if owned by Arabs (and perhaps Russians, as you suggest).
Turan is just Persian name for Turkestan... and we already have Turkestan just north of this kingdom. In later periods I can imagine most of Transoxiana to drift under Turkestan with Khuttal only joining Kabulistan... but before 1090's I think it should be separate de jure kingdom... which needs separate name

I tend to only hear it being called Transoxiana in English in ancient (especially Roman and Hellenistic) contexts, to be fair.
I do admit that it does indeed sound/look ancient. More recently the region is called Central Asia or West Turkestan, but I guess we all would agree that it doesn't look very immersive.
Transoxiana is simply the most appropriate name, actually the one used by Europeans at the time

EDIT: sorry, I was doubble ninja'd
 

BeyondExpectation

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Would Glitterhoof stay as a genetically and culturally pure horse, or would he eventually being a Han Centaur?

Is this a pun of some sort? If so, someone please explain.
 

Woifee

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For some reason I feel sad about this. Of course these changes are awesome, but PI said they will stop soon with development for CK2, but at the same time they started fixing the map. So will this stop soon as well? There are some other regions wich could use an overhaul.
 

mshoari14

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These are great changes. They do create one problem though. What is the name of the empire title of persia? Historically the empire wasn't called Persia by its inhabitants whom were ethnicly diverse. With the fall of the Omayyids, native dynasties arose who refered to themselves as Iranian deriving their right to rule from pre-Islamic Sassanids dynasty.

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/iranian-identity-iii-medieval-islamic-period

So, may I suggest the title name to Iranian Empire?
 
Last edited:

qscvbhjk

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Trans sounds too latin... Does English sound too Latin to you as well? Maybe change it to another language would help,中亚河中地区。There, is not western at all.

Hell, IS ENGLISH! ENGLISH IS A WESTERN EUROPEAN LANGUAGE! If you wish to fight the evil imperialist power that is ENGLISH then change the in-game language!

Since you guys truly give a damn! The Middle East shall now be called West Asia!
 

Ols

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Is this a pun of some sort? If so, someone please explain.

It's not a pun. If you give Glitterhoof land his dynasty eventually becomes mixed race (half-human/half-horse, or 'Centaur') and they'll usually also become the local culture. I was wondering if the fact that China was off map would make it possible for him and his descendants to stay pure, as is generally the case for unlanded titles.
 

Ols

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You bet. :)
But IMHO no people calls their own homeland as trans- or cis- something. This type of names are for dividing lands or designations of foreign realms. IMHO again. :)

All the surrounding cultures use dynastic names, so indeed they wont be calling it "Transoxiana". It's only foreign invaders who'll do that, which seems appropriate to me. That's why I don't really care what the kingdom level titles in the Middle East are called, provided they cover a logical area.
 

Czert

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Conclave effected the whole map equally it added to everyone, because it wasnt localized enough to your liking doesn't change the fact that it was a universal DLC.

well, it looks that you fail to understand very basic rule "sometimes bad localization is worse than no localization at all".
 

Czert

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You seem to be missing the point.
Because that's what I was saying: They all affected all equaly by giving them European features.

They weren't exclusively European by not affecting anything else than Europe, but by using almost entirely European mechanics only.
And then because these universal DLCs apply European customs everywhere, the only way the extra-Europeans get their flavour is region-specific DLCs.

I don't like this approach. For instance, I was suggesting a Desert tribes DLC, which has mechanics, which are generalized enough to be benefitial for much larger area than one region, while still adding specific flavour.
For instance introduction of clan features, which can represent Desert tribes from Arabia or North Africa as well as Daylamire mountaineers, Irish or Scotch clans as well as Georgian or Armenian clan structure. There I suggest general Scholarly institutions which have 2 versions with only tiny differences, one fitting catholic Universities, one fitting muslim Madrasas.. It includes mechanics for Inland republics, which simulate the Fuggers of Augsburg as well as the Muqqari family prominent in Trans-Saharan trade.. or religious Military movements which - with tiny adjustments/localisations - can represent playable military orders such as Templars or Hospitaliers as well as the Almoravids, the Almohads.. the Cathars as well as the Qarmatian movement.
That way for instance a DLC centered around Africa and the Desert can offer grand enrichment to the entire map, yet not doing what these universal DLCs do by imposing European stuff on everyone else.

Well, many can only hope that some of your ideas will be implemted (idealy many or all).
 

Sol717

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TheDungen

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The Arab derivative of Assyria is as-Suriya, which means, um, Syria.
Except assyria is named for the city of assur which is not in any geographical definition of Syria. Al jazira may be etymologically unrelated to Assyria. But Assyria and Syria are diffrent places.
 

Andrelvis

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Pretty cool! I hope Austria will get some map love, it direly needs it: the "Österreich" province still has that same inaccurate shape from EU1, and the Steiermark/Tyrol/Innsbruck/Krain provinces aren't better, either.
 

TheDungen

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If Nomads were as buggy I doubt they would just stay that way for so long.
Nomads are buggy and broken and have been since release of horselords.

Transoxiana is not a regionally accurate name. It is a latin/European name. Though I can't find an appropriate Turkish name. But wiki has different Persian names. Farārūd and Turan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transoxiana
Originally Greek as I understand it. But it is fine or the generic name, if it localized depending who holds it.

Transoxania is basically the Arab name just translated.
Other way around transoxania and the arab name are both translated from a Greek name.

Could you also take a look at giving the Kingdom of Wales some more muscle while you're at it. Also, I'm sure there's room for a 'Kingdom of the Isles' in the North Sea.
Dejure Britain or Scandinavia?

Curious, why isn't Oman a kingdom? The Nabhani dynasty ruled Oman as Muluks, which is roughly equivalent to king (from 1154 though the end of the CK2 time frame). Before this, Oman was controlled by various empires, which are still a rank above kingdom and thus would have no problem incorporating it. There are other single duchy kingdoms, so it can't just be because of size.
At least a titular kingdom.

Mesopotamia removed? You're triggering my inner Babylonian.
How triggered was your I her Babylonian by the fact that babylon was destroyed before 769? Heck Baghdad was built so close that as I understand it parts of the city of Babylon is now I side the city limits. Babylon was in turn built almost on top of uruk which is where the name Iraq derives from.

I tend to read mostly early modern history (i.e. the era of eu rather than ck) and in that context transoxiana is very common.
I don't remember when I last read classical, Hellenic or "ancient" history :)
It is of course an exonym, but so are most of the regions in the game (as I mentioned in my last post).

Mawaranhar is far from unheard of of course but that doesn't mean transoxiana is a bad name for it :)
Turan is another good name (though I find it's often used for a somewhat wider region and in my personal preference if we use Turan we should also go with Iran over Persia).
Maybe you should call either the kingdom or empire of Persia Iran.

Oh and any oddities is because I try to write this on my phone.
 

TheDungen

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Turan is just Persian name for Turkestan... and we already have Turkestan just north of this
Isn't turkestan already Persian? I thought the -stan suffix was persian?
As for turan isn't that name older than the Turkish presence in the region? I think you should think more along the lines of the Turks having been named for turan rather than the other way around.
 

Keizer Harm

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VoodooEconomist

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Keizer Harm

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This isn't up to date though, since then Johan himself wrote:

So it's not set in stone that CK2 will end anytime soon.
I watched them say it in the JD announcement stream too. It is winding down, they said. I think that what I linked may not be entirely accurate any more, but it is really at the tail end of development no matter how you put it.
 

VoodooEconomist

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I watched them say it in the JD announcement stream too. It is winding down, they said. I think that what I linked may not be entirely accurate any more, but it is really at the tail end of development no matter how you put it.
That's true, they said that they'll be winding down. Just wanted to make sure people don't mistake the old DD as confirmation that JD's the last we'll see of the game.