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CK2 Dev Diary #65: Along the Silk Road

Greetings!

Today I’d like to talk about one of the features that we’ve decided to improve and overhaul - the Silk Road. The Silk Road was introduced in the Horse Lords expansion and, while profitable, was very annoying to manage and fickle in its behaviour. As the Silk Road is essential in modeling the importance of China, it will also be unlocked by owning Jade Dragon. Owners of Horse Lords will receive all improvements we’re making, of course.

More often than not, the Silk Road was consciously ignored by players as it was too much of a hassle to manage. You used to compete with everyone for where to build your trade posts - not just with other realms, but with your own vassals. Another problem was that the Silk Road was way too easy to cut off - 100 men looting Dunhuang would completely cut off trade downstream, which wasn’t very realistic at all. With limited routes the trade usually had nowhere to go, and it was not uncommon to see the road completely blocked off if both origin points were under siege.

The Silk Road has received plenty of new routes - based on various historical records, such as those made by Arab traders, Radhanite Jewish merchants and the Chinese themselves. It’ll be very hard to cut it off entirely, as there’s plenty of paths for the trade to take!
Silk Road Basic Outline.png

The Silk Road origin points are now north of Tibet, southern Tibet and via the ocean to southern India.

The new vision we have for the Silk Road is one where you want to control (and fight over) specific counties along the Silk Road, where Trade Posts can always be constructed. These ‘hot-spots’ are placed in various counties with historical precedent along the road itself - i.e. Khotan, Kashgar, Debul, Merv, and even counties as far away as Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria. We currently have 51 Trade Post locations spread across the Silk Road.
TradePosts.png

The Trade mapmode now shows icons for Trade Posts, so you can at a glance tell where they can be built.

The value of the Silk Road depends on many factors, such as raids, occupations and the current attitude of China. Raids and occupations will no longer instantly cut off the Silk Road, instead they will decrease the value that travels downstream by a certain percentage - 10% for any county being under siege (i.e. raiders) and 25% for any occupied county. This means that, while the the Silk Road still has a dynamic and interesting value, it’s never arbitrarily cut off by a few raiders.
Raiding.png

You can now easily spot where hostilities are occurring along the Silk Road.

It will generally always be better to control Trade Posts further up the road itself - Trade Posts located further down the road are more susceptible to raiders and occupations, as the trade has to travel through more counties to get there. It’s far from useless though, as a Trade Post working at 50% efficiency still produces a LOT of wealth.
dynamicallyColoredRoad.png

In this screenshot you can see that a war in Bengal is choking the Silk Road passing through eastern and central India. There are also notable conflicts in the northern Steppe route, as well as minor conflicts in Egypt, Persia and Iraq.

Trade Posts now work similarly to hospitals - whoever holds the county controls the Trade Post (this doesn’t apply to Merchant Republics, who work like they’ve always had, even on the Silk Road). This means that you will want to hold as many Silk Road Trade Post counties as you can in your personal demesne. This makes it more fun to play as a vassal, as your liege can’t steal your Silk Road Trade Post slot just because you weren’t fast enough to build it first!

Silk Road Trade Posts are worth a lot of money, and they used to be destroyed first by besieging enemy armies even if there were other holdings in the county that were not yet sieged. This has been changed - they are still destroyed when occupied, but are now sieged last. This means that you can protect them with castles and forts, again improving the experience for whoever builds one. It’s now much less of a risk to build the various buildings Silk Road Trade Posts now contain.

The attitude of China might affect the value of the Silk Road - Plagues, Unrest, Invasions, Civil War and Famines decrease it, while Golden Ages increase it! Sometimes, China might decide to close down the Silk Road and turn inwards, though if you’re powerful enough - militarily or by controlling enough counties on the Silk Road - you just might be able to force them to open right back up...

All in all - it should now feel much more rewarding to control the Silk Road and the Trade Posts it contains. You will actively want to seek out and control the Silk Road, and keep it safe from raiders.
Socotra.png

The Emir of Socotra, with a Silk Road Trade Post in his demesne.
 

TheDungen

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Wait, I thought you were saying on the streams that the independent rulers get the trade post.
They obviously changed their minds and I'm glad they did. It makes no sense in a game like ck2 for the top level liege to get the money. Struggling with your vassals over valuable provinces is basically the name of the game.
 
Last edited:

TheDungen

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With the silk road being given by JD and it also containing a tributary rework I assume tributaries will be in the JD too... Will horse lords only be nomadic governments now? Because that'd be awesome because then I could shut of horselords and never have to remember the nightmare that is the nomad government again.
 

SchwarzKatze

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@rageair Can you confirm if the plan to let the top liege control all the trade posts in the realm is abandoned?
 

TheDungen

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@rageair Can you confirm if the plan to let the top liege control all the trade posts in the realm is abandoned?
He just did in the devdiary.
whoever holds the county controls the Trade Post (this doesn’t apply to Merchant Republics, who work like they’ve always had, even on the Silk Road). This means that you will want to hold as many Silk Road Trade Post counties as you can in your personal demesne. This makes it more fun to play as a vassal, as your liege can’t steal your Silk Road Trade Post slot just because you weren’t fast enough to build it first!
The quill clip is from the 31st August the dev diary is from today. It's obvious they playtested it and realized how utterly unbalanced it was.
 
T

tywinzo

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I'd like to see it too, but I think it makes more sense for Europe to get Fair Events - events for all people nearby the spot one would occur (i.e. Fair happens in the county of Champagne; all counties within 2 independent nations' distance would be able to attend), which would be a really big version of the summer fair intrigue option (but started by the AI instead of the player). Such fairs would try to mimic their historical dates and have chain sub-events to either give or take away lots of money and traits to/from the attendees (and even more to/from the hosts), to compensate the lack of Silk Road counties AND because these things happened! :)
Players with the Business focus attending/hosting fairs would get special sub-events too.

Example of possible places (specific and close counties) for medieval fairs:
- Champagne
- Troyes
- Paris
- Artois
- Reims
- Bar
- Holland
- Flanders
- Yperen
- Brugge
- Genoa
- Aprutium
- Foggia
- Bari
- Brendesion
- Catanzaro
- Salerno
- Taranto
- Neapolis
- Winchester
- Northampton
- Lindsey
- Cornwall
- Plauen
- Lübeck
- Mainz

Very good summary. I'd love to see both such historical fairs and those trade routes for sure. There is so much to do it here, and I'd especially like to see more mechanics regarding e.g. tolls, fees and the general count-peasant relationship.

And: Europe gets far too little love. Since the DLC is a no-brainer/no-buy, at least please do something for original CKII.
 

TheDungen

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Well the Varangian one is pretty much just the rivers and portages. If rivers worked like mini trade routes it'd be handled. Via imperii and the amber route are a bit to much overlap but either or.
And via regia seems fine too.
Plenty outside Europe too.
The main thing is these ought to interact and also the trade route map mode looks terrible when yous tart adding more trade routes. At least they should be assigned different colours.
 
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Wixelt

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With the silk road being given by JD and it also containing a tributary rework I assume tributaries will be in the JD too... Will horse lords only be nomadic governments now? Because that'd be awesome because then I could shut of horselords and never have to remember the nightmare that is the nomad government again.

Don't you mean the Make Tributary CB. A number of states [Merica/Abbasids come to my mind furst] start with tributaries even without that DLC. The Steppe is a borefesf without Nomadic mechanics anyway.
 

TheDungen

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Don't you mean the Make Tributary CB. A number of states [Merica/Abbasids come to my mind furst] start with tributaries even without that DLC. The Steppe is a borefesf without Nomadic mechanics anyway.
Yes obviously I mean the CB. And no the steppe tribal is relatively balanced, with nomad it's all one big monocultural blob. Also the hungarian invasion of the carpathias never work out well with the post horse lords mechanic, the hungarians always end up settling in a single duchy and then getting eaten by next generation of magyars who keep blobbing at the steppe instead of carving out a new home in Europe. Usually destroying the Rus utterly, despite in reality pressure form the Rus is what drove the Magyar into the carpathiansto begin with, and the Rus kept slowly pushing the nomads back until the mongols arrived.
 
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Greetings!

Today I’d like to talk about one of the features that we’ve decided to improve and overhaul - the Silk Road. The Silk Road was introduced in the Horse Lords expansion and, while profitable, was very annoying to manage and fickle in its behaviour. As the Silk Road is essential in modeling the importance of China, it will also be unlocked by owning Jade Dragon. Owners of Horse Lords will receive all improvements we’re making, of course.

More often than not, the Silk Road was consciously ignored by players as it was too much of a hassle to manage. You used to compete with everyone for where to build your trade posts - not just with other realms, but with your own vassals. Another problem was that the Silk Road was way too easy to cut off - 100 men looting Dunhuang would completely cut off trade downstream, which wasn’t very realistic at all. With limited routes the trade usually had nowhere to go, and it was not uncommon to see the road completely blocked off if both origin points were under siege.

The Silk Road has received plenty of new routes - based on various historical records, such as those made by Arab traders, Radhanite Jewish merchants and the Chinese themselves. It’ll be very hard to cut it off entirely, as there’s plenty of paths for the trade to take!
View attachment 296226
The Silk Road origin points are now north of Tibet, southern Tibet and via the ocean to southern India.

The new vision we have for the Silk Road is one where you want to control (and fight over) specific counties along the Silk Road, where Trade Posts can always be constructed. These ‘hot-spots’ are placed in various counties with historical precedent along the road itself - i.e. Khotan, Kashgar, Debul, Merv, and even counties as far away as Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria. We currently have 51 Trade Post locations spread across the Silk Road.
View attachment 296225
The Trade mapmode now shows icons for Trade Posts, so you can at a glance tell where they can be built.

The value of the Silk Road depends on many factors, such as raids, occupations and the current attitude of China. Raids and occupations will no longer instantly cut off the Silk Road, instead they will decrease the value that travels downstream by a certain percentage - 10% for any county being under siege (i.e. raiders) and 25% for any occupied county. This means that, while the the Silk Road still has a dynamic and interesting value, it’s never arbitrarily cut off by a few raiders.
View attachment 296227
You can now easily spot where hostilities are occurring along the Silk Road.

It will generally always be better to control Trade Posts further up the road itself - Trade Posts located further down the road are more susceptible to raiders and occupations, as the trade has to travel through more counties to get there. It’s far from useless though, as a Trade Post working at 50% efficiency still produces a LOT of wealth.
View attachment 296228
In this screenshot you can see that a war in Bengal is choking the Silk Road passing through eastern and central India. There are also notable conflicts in the northern Steppe route, as well as minor conflicts in Egypt, Persia and Iraq.

Trade Posts now work similarly to hospitals - whoever holds the county controls the Trade Post (this doesn’t apply to Merchant Republics, who work like they’ve always had, even on the Silk Road). This means that you will want to hold as many Silk Road Trade Post counties as you can in your personal demesne. This makes it more fun to play as a vassal, as your liege can’t steal your Silk Road Trade Post slot just because you weren’t fast enough to build it first!

Silk Road Trade Posts are worth a lot of money, and they used to be destroyed first by besieging enemy armies even if there were other holdings in the county that were not yet sieged. This has been changed - they are still destroyed when occupied, but are now sieged last. This means that you can protect them with castles and forts, again improving the experience for whoever builds one. It’s now much less of a risk to build the various buildings Silk Road Trade Posts now contain.

The attitude of China might affect the value of the Silk Road - Plagues, Unrest, Invasions, Civil War and Famines decrease it, while Golden Ages increase it! Sometimes, China might decide to close down the Silk Road and turn inwards, though if you’re powerful enough - militarily or by controlling enough counties on the Silk Road - you just might be able to force them to open right back up...

All in all - it should now feel much more rewarding to control the Silk Road and the Trade Posts it contains. You will actively want to seek out and control the Silk Road, and keep it safe from raiders.
View attachment 296224
The Emir of Socotra, with a Silk Road Trade Post in his demesne.

I like these improvements in general but a couple of things bother.

Firstly, I don't think China should be able to completely shut down the Silk Road. That implies the only useful trade was from China Westwards when in fact goods could also flow East. Silk was also available in Constantinople having been smuggled out before CM and Arabia and India traded goods like steel and spice.

Secondly, there seem to be some arbitrary gaps in the Silk Road? shouldn't there be a link in the road across the straight of Hormuz? The over-land and over-sea routes are very close together and it seems logical that if one were blocked upstream goods could cross the straight to the other route. Likewise, it seems like the Northern route should really cross the sea of Azoz and terminate in Crimea, that way Genoa will have some of the trade posts - which makes sense.
 

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I like these improvements in general but a couple of things bother.

Firstly, I don't think China should be able to completely shut down the Silk Road. That implies the only useful trade was from China Westwards when in fact goods could also flow East. Silk was also available in Constantinople having been smuggled out before CM and Arabia and India traded goods like steel and spice.

Secondly, there seem to be some arbitrary gaps in the Silk Road? shouldn't there be a link in the road across the straight of Hormuz? The over-land and over-sea routes are very close together and it seems logical that if one were blocked upstream goods could cross the straight to the other route. Likewise, it seems like the Northern route should really cross the sea of Azoz and terminate in Crimea, that way Genoa will have some of the trade posts - which makes sense.
It also shows why the Byzantines thought it was so important to hold on to crimea.

And when we're poking holes in it... why is there no terminus in Tyre? It's a silk road city (not to mention one of the wealthiest trade cities in the Mediterranean of all time).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citie...Roads_across_the_Middle_East_and_Western_Asia
On the other hand I find no mention of Arsuf being on the silk road anywhere...
 
Last edited:

TemporalAnomaly

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Shouldn't there be a branch north of the Tien Shan Mountains going through Alma-Ata, which was a silk road city?

Also, does having a branch cut make the other branches that bypass it gain value?
 
Last edited:

Hospitalier

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Would it be really silly of me to offer a suggestion that the Silk Road should not be the same exact path every game? Dev blog said that only certain counties are enabled to build trade posts. But what if the Silk Road progressed in a random fashion, or under direct influence, westwards? Maybe the holder of the silk road county can make a decision to divert the road to his/her choice of adjacent county. Or just RNG it to do so randomly.

Just a thought, I like having things turn out differently every game and as long as the Road does not curl back on itself it seems cool to imagine it having a life of its own.
 

Cryostorm15

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Just wondering but shouldn't Constantinople be a terminus for the Silk Road? It did not earn the nickname "City of the World's Desires" for nothing. The Italian trade cities should probably also get something.
 

Axe99

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Cheers for the DD Rageair :). These all sound like good improvements - I'll admit to being one of those players that tinkered a little with the silk road early on, but found it to be too finickity (and easily destroyed/disrupted) to keep my attention in all except the most extreme circumstances (a stable empire extending to the Eastern border). Looking forward to it being much more of a 'thing' :). Improvements to map modes look on the money as well :).

The attitude of China might affect the value of the Silk Road - Plagues, Unrest, Invasions, Civil War and Famines decrease it, while Golden Ages increase it! Sometimes, China might decide to close down the Silk Road and turn inwards, though if you’re powerful enough - militarily or by controlling enough counties on the Silk Road - you just might be able to force them to open right back up...

Bring on the medieval reverse opium wars! :eek:
 

TheDungen

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Also, does having a branch cut make the other branches that bypass it gain value?
The value of the Silk Road depends on many factors, such as raids, occupations and the current attitude of China. Raids and occupations will no longer instantly cut off the Silk Road, instead they will decrease the value that travels downstream by a certain percentage - 10% for any county being under siege (i.e. raiders) and 25% for any occupied county. This means that, while the the Silk Road still has a dynamic and interesting value, it’s never arbitrarily cut off by a few raiders.
It's no longer cut. That said it would be nice if the value that was lost in one path flowed into the others.