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Greetings!

In the last DD I touched upon becoming a Tributary, and its associated penalties/advantages. In this DD I’d like to talk about China and their various interests on our side of the map - which more than often includes having Tributaries!

China is mostly content staying within the Middle Kingdom itself, but it is not unheard of for them to want Tributaries outside of it. While only an Expansionist China will actively pursue more and more Tributary States, even a mellow China will want to have a few of them. China will, at times, go to war in order to make someone their tributary state - they will often target small realms in the Tarim Basin or Tibet areas, though small states often tend to give in before an actual war is declared.

GiveIn.png


Even if China has land in the west (the Western Protectorate) they often bring in troops from China. These troops usually arrive in the Anxi region just above Tibet. China, unless Expansionist, does not want to overextend while warring in the west, so they tend to not call upon more troops than they think they need to defeat their target. It’s not uncommon for them to be wrong though, most rulers will be able to defeat China if they outmaneuver them, hire enough mercenaries or simply get lucky. Forcing China into a surrender is a very significant thing to do, the spoils of such a treaty are often way more than enough to recover from the losses.

The power of China rises and wanes with their Status and with time, sometimes they will be weak and sometimes they will be unstoppable. A Stable China will be able to match their enemies should they attack or be attacked, while a China suffering from a Famine or Plague isn’t nearly as strong. If the Western Protectorate has established itself on the map, a good time to strike at them would be during such a status, it is also a good idea if they are suffering Unrest or are in the middle of a Civil War. During times such as those, subjugated realms tend to break free without much opposition from China.

On the other hand - if China is in a Golden Age it would be most unwise to meddle with them. They will be able to summon both more and better troops, and they tend to want larger realms as their tributaries - even if they don’t go after more of them than they would normally. While a China that’s in a Golden Age is more threatening, it’s also more profitable to ask them for Boons as their effects will be much stronger and last for longer.

If China is Expansionist, they will want to secure land for themselves. It is fairly rare for China to be Expansionist. It is the most common when/if they are ruled by the Mongols or other Altaic Emperors. When China is expansionist, it’s not necessarily stronger than it is normally - but it will go after bigger fish. They will target almost any realm, despite size, and try to either force them to pay Tribute or more commonly to subjugate them. Should China lose a war while expansionist, it might be thrown out of Expansionism and into Unrest. Should China be both Expansionist AND in a Golden Age, they will be an unstoppable juggernaut - this is an exceedingly rare combination which at most happen one in every ten games or so.

Worth noting is that China tends to keep to the same area when they go to war. They might, for example, want to make everyone in the Tarim Basin tributaries or subjugate northeastern India. They tend to not divide their interests unless they have to.

TributaryChain.png


It is not only the Emperor who might go to war in the west - adventurers will at time spill out of China in order to make a new home for themselves. There are three major archetypes:

Sinicised Altaic Tribes - The leader of a Taoist Jurchen tribe might arrive along the Silk Road or via the Steppe to make a new home for themselves in the far west. These act much like normal raiding adventurers, though we’ve revamped the raiding adventurer system to be more interactive for the player, with adventurers less often outright attacking you - instead they prefer to haggle, potentially offering you plenty of gold for a province to settle in.

Displaced Princes - After a Civil War is lost, a scion of the former ruling dynasty might escape west. These characters start out with a formidable army and bring a lot of wealth with them. Such characters are very amenable to negotiation, and will often pay you extraordinary sums of wealth to be allowed to settle in your lands.

Rebel Generals - If a Civil War is won, a particularly ambitious general might make his way west to found a new Chinese Empire. They often bring what remains of the rebel armies, making them very dangerous. Having the nerve to found a new Chinese Empire will draw the ire of the ruling dynasty in China, often making them put everything else aside in order to crush the western pretenders.

Rebel General.png


Note that everything regarding Chinese invasions are fully controllable by Game Rules - you can set China to only take Tributaries and never do land grabs, for example. You can also choose to only have the adventurers, with China never extending outside of the Middle Kingdom, among several other settings.
 

jicker

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New cultures + new religions while you're revising the Middle East, please. It'd barely be any effort to turn Manichaeism (now with its own holy order, in the new patch) and Yazidi into proper religions, but would add considerable depth of gameplay. I think almost the entire community agrees on this...

Yes, absolutely. I'd like Nestorianism to be fleshed out too – it was the biggest school of Christianity in Asia for quite a while.
 

Thure

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Oh, and give us our lakes in Tibet!

...Pretty please. :(

I'm pretty sure the lakes are not their, because they would look ugly how the maps work. The map don't can add mountain lakes or lakes which are above sea level. It would put large holes into Tibet which would be ugly as hell (and would look like gates to hell...).
 

CatilinamSum

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I'm pretty sure the lakes are not their, because they would look ugly how the maps work. The map don't can add mountain lakes or lakes which are above sea level. It would put large holes into Tibet which would be ugly as hell (and would look like gates to hell...).

That's really too bad if it's true. Regardless, they should add the missing rivers. The Yangtze, Yellow, Mekong, and Salween all stretch across the Kham/Amdo regions, yet are not present in-game.

plateaumap_lg.jpg
 

VoodooEconomist

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Thure

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Servancour

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I'm pretty sure they just lowered the hills around it to let it look smoother. So lakes in mountains as high as the Tibetan Plateau would still be impossible.

Yeah, I smoothed out the terrain around the lake to make it look better. Since most of Baikal is placed in wasteland, it wasn't much of a problem. Adding the lakes in Tibet would, as you've described, look rather terrible as large craters. :)
 

Bearnest

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Yeah, I smoothed out the terrain around the lake to make it look better. Since most of Baikal is placed in wasteland, it wasn't much of a problem. Adding the lakes in Tibet would, as you've described, look rather terrible as large craters. :)
What about impassibilities within the plateau? As it is now, Tibet is bordered by mountain ranges that bar passage from Tarim Basin and India, but there should be at least three mountain ranges that hinder passage within the plateau, roughly parallel to the Himalayas and the Kunlun mountains.
Tibetan_Plateau

92.gif

In these maps, everything red with white peaks should be impassable.
This map is more stylized, but makes it clearer:
tibet-mountains-map.jpg



The Tibetan Plateau should be one of the most difficult places to move around.
 

Teutonic_Thrash

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I know the diplomatic range is tied to the silk road, however can it be extended dynamically if China makes inroads into the west?
I think the diplomatic range is tied both to the Silk Road and the Western Protectorate's territory; I don't know what effect tributaries have though.
 

CatilinamSum

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Yeah, I smoothed out the terrain around the lake to make it look better. Since most of Baikal is placed in wasteland, it wasn't much of a problem. Adding the lakes in Tibet would, as you've described, look rather terrible as large craters. :)

Speaking of which, Lake Baikal still doesn't count as a lake for game purposes... it's labelled "Mare Incognitum," and Nomads can't build Fishing Villages there.
 

Parafoudre

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I have a big problem with TDC. A game breaking one.

I can't get myself to play anymore, because the game will be so much better when it will be out !The entire eastern world seems bland now that I know what it will be soon !
 

persianfan247

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I have a big problem with TDC. A game breaking one.

I can't get myself to play anymore, because the game will be so much better when it will be out !The entire eastern world seems bland now that I know what it will be soon !

This is my problem with CK2 in general, while being able to revert to previous versions means you can continue playing old saves. I always want to play with the latest features or with whatever problems are fixed in a patch. Meaning I never get close to carrying out the campaigns I always dream of. Which is why I kind of look forward to the last expansion for CK2 because there will be no more updates to disrupt my campaigns.
 

klopkr

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Yeah, I smoothed out the terrain around the lake to make it look better. Since most of Baikal is placed in wasteland, it wasn't much of a problem. Adding the lakes in Tibet would, as you've described, look rather terrible as large craters. :)
You guys fixed this problem in EU4. What's the challenge in implementing that fix for CK2? Is it that different of an issue?

Have you guys considered using a fake sea level 3d model adjusted to slightly higher than normal sea level placed only under areas where the rest of the terrain would block out all parts but the pockets of lakes?

I can actually implement that myself currently through modding if someone can make me a 3d graphic of ck2 esque water at least the size of lake Baikal and possibly a smaller version. You can even animate these objects so it doesn't even need to be static water.

All I have to do is import it through the maya exporter they released not long ago and adjust its location in the text file so the non lake parts of the world are higher thant he lake parts of the world.

Wait how have you guys been fixing it? Because this is as easy as implementing in the pyramids.

@Johan @Groogy @Doomdark Did you guys not think of this one?

I hope I just did what that one guy did when he proved you could make cool easy unpassable mountain ranges in Sengoku.
 

KhoiDangDang

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The Emperor converts fully into EU4.
Taoism gets matched to Confucian yes.
Then they will convert with that religion.
It maybe late but can you considerate again about Taoism gets matched to Confucian in EU4 because they are completely different religions if you matched them it doesn't make sense. To be honest Confucian is not a religion but an ideal just like capitalism or communism, Taoism is a religion.

PS: For this DLC I wish you considerate again the Buddhism event too because now we have Han's Buddhism and they don't have guru or elephant or tiger events. At the earliest startdate, the Taoism and Buddhism kind of coexist in China, China's Buddhism is borrowing and devouring Taoism (Taoism still exists but Buddhism has almost every characteristic of Taoism), let said it is localised, so when EU4 happen Buddhism of China, Vietnam and Korea is a completely different religion compare to original Buddhism.

PS 2: When Confucian idea started to spread in China, you can say that Chinese is non-religion, Taoism or Buddhism is just their beliefs, belief is kind of thing that you do some things for a long time and you forgot the reason, your parent or grand parent teach you to follow them but you don't know the reasons, It is definitely not faith.
 
Last edited:

Parafoudre

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Jun 15, 2017
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A little suggestion. Make it so that Buddhists can't convert to Hinduism and Jainism, if they don't have any Indian caste trait.It would be nonsensical to see Chinese becoming Hindu just because they are Buddhist.
 

Silversweeeper

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A little suggestion. Make it so that Buddhists can't convert to Hinduism and Jainism, if they don't have any Indian caste trait.It would be nonsensical to see Chinese becoming Hindu just because they are Buddhist.

I would add "or have an Indo-Aryan/Dravidian culture, have a Hindu/Jain liege, are a human player, or have their capital in India (and perhaps also Kabulistan/Sistan/Kashmir/Nepal, due to bordering India and thus easily coming into contact with those religions)" to the caste trait condition, but that is certanly one circumstance under which it makes sense.
 

Parafoudre

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Jun 15, 2017
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I would add "or have an Indo-Aryan/Dravidian culture, have a Hindu/Jain liege, are a human player, or have their capital in India (and perhaps also Kabulistan/Sistan/Kashmir/Nepal, due to bordering India and thus easily coming into contact with those religions)" to the caste trait condition, but that is certanly one circumstance under which it makes sense.

I agree with you, except about the human player. It's a pretty big advantage to be able to use this system at will IMHO.
 

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I agree with you, except about the human player. It's a pretty big advantage to be able to use this system at will IMHO.

It is a bit of an advantage, but the human player can decide what would be sensible/realistic circumstances for their character to convert to Hinduism/Jainism much better than the AI can, so I think that the human player should get some more freedom (and I am also generally not a fan of removing player choice).