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Greetings!

In the last DD I touched upon becoming a Tributary, and its associated penalties/advantages. In this DD I’d like to talk about China and their various interests on our side of the map - which more than often includes having Tributaries!

China is mostly content staying within the Middle Kingdom itself, but it is not unheard of for them to want Tributaries outside of it. While only an Expansionist China will actively pursue more and more Tributary States, even a mellow China will want to have a few of them. China will, at times, go to war in order to make someone their tributary state - they will often target small realms in the Tarim Basin or Tibet areas, though small states often tend to give in before an actual war is declared.

GiveIn.png


Even if China has land in the west (the Western Protectorate) they often bring in troops from China. These troops usually arrive in the Anxi region just above Tibet. China, unless Expansionist, does not want to overextend while warring in the west, so they tend to not call upon more troops than they think they need to defeat their target. It’s not uncommon for them to be wrong though, most rulers will be able to defeat China if they outmaneuver them, hire enough mercenaries or simply get lucky. Forcing China into a surrender is a very significant thing to do, the spoils of such a treaty are often way more than enough to recover from the losses.

The power of China rises and wanes with their Status and with time, sometimes they will be weak and sometimes they will be unstoppable. A Stable China will be able to match their enemies should they attack or be attacked, while a China suffering from a Famine or Plague isn’t nearly as strong. If the Western Protectorate has established itself on the map, a good time to strike at them would be during such a status, it is also a good idea if they are suffering Unrest or are in the middle of a Civil War. During times such as those, subjugated realms tend to break free without much opposition from China.

On the other hand - if China is in a Golden Age it would be most unwise to meddle with them. They will be able to summon both more and better troops, and they tend to want larger realms as their tributaries - even if they don’t go after more of them than they would normally. While a China that’s in a Golden Age is more threatening, it’s also more profitable to ask them for Boons as their effects will be much stronger and last for longer.

If China is Expansionist, they will want to secure land for themselves. It is fairly rare for China to be Expansionist. It is the most common when/if they are ruled by the Mongols or other Altaic Emperors. When China is expansionist, it’s not necessarily stronger than it is normally - but it will go after bigger fish. They will target almost any realm, despite size, and try to either force them to pay Tribute or more commonly to subjugate them. Should China lose a war while expansionist, it might be thrown out of Expansionism and into Unrest. Should China be both Expansionist AND in a Golden Age, they will be an unstoppable juggernaut - this is an exceedingly rare combination which at most happen one in every ten games or so.

Worth noting is that China tends to keep to the same area when they go to war. They might, for example, want to make everyone in the Tarim Basin tributaries or subjugate northeastern India. They tend to not divide their interests unless they have to.

TributaryChain.png


It is not only the Emperor who might go to war in the west - adventurers will at time spill out of China in order to make a new home for themselves. There are three major archetypes:

Sinicised Altaic Tribes - The leader of a Taoist Jurchen tribe might arrive along the Silk Road or via the Steppe to make a new home for themselves in the far west. These act much like normal raiding adventurers, though we’ve revamped the raiding adventurer system to be more interactive for the player, with adventurers less often outright attacking you - instead they prefer to haggle, potentially offering you plenty of gold for a province to settle in.

Displaced Princes - After a Civil War is lost, a scion of the former ruling dynasty might escape west. These characters start out with a formidable army and bring a lot of wealth with them. Such characters are very amenable to negotiation, and will often pay you extraordinary sums of wealth to be allowed to settle in your lands.

Rebel Generals - If a Civil War is won, a particularly ambitious general might make his way west to found a new Chinese Empire. They often bring what remains of the rebel armies, making them very dangerous. Having the nerve to found a new Chinese Empire will draw the ire of the ruling dynasty in China, often making them put everything else aside in order to crush the western pretenders.

Rebel General.png


Note that everything regarding Chinese invasions are fully controllable by Game Rules - you can set China to only take Tributaries and never do land grabs, for example. You can also choose to only have the adventurers, with China never extending outside of the Middle Kingdom, among several other settings.
 

liredarion

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So basically a never-ending Aztec Invasion, how 'exciting'.

This is exactly the impression I have, many of the new mechanics of the dlc are summarized with armies coming from an off-map China that seems able to transform into equivalent of the Aztecs to the east. In fact the Chinese mechanics introduced into the game are, for the most part, unplayable and that is quite disappointing. A better representation of the imperial bureaucracy for Byzantium and the empires created by the player was expected and the implementation of China was an opportunity to introduce this. This is not only not the case, but, in addition to this, empires, founded by generals, and perhaps working (I expect to see the answer on this subject) with this unplayable government, will risk to emerge in the middle of the game. I just hope that for what brings this dlc "sunshine invasion" the asking price will not be too high because there are quite interesting things . I had let myself be convinced that China off-map (i was for an "on map " implemrntation) could be a good idea, but in terms of gameplay the novelties are quite disappointing and from a historical point of view, China and its relations with Asia are poorly represented. Only the new cassus belli seems interesting to me. It is a pity that on a game of this quality, the end of development is used for this.
 

Red Earth

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if you actually read the DD they rarely. if ever go expansionist unless there invaded by mongols in which case your screwed regardless...
...and the Aztecs don't negotiate. And Aztecs don't grant special bonuses if they like you. And Aztecs never like you.
So yes, China is exactly like the Aztecs if you ignore everything about China except the part where they can invade.
So basic.
 

treb

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Another thing how will the game deal with the Yuan dynasty? Will they be unplayable too? If there so arbitrarily intent on not letting us be China are they going to lack away previously playable characters?
 
Last edited:

Enriador

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Taoism is going to be the ultimate religion for players enjoying playing tall

Give me Confuncian Bureaucracy, and my soul shall be yours!
 

liredarion

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...and the Aztecs don't negotiate. And Aztecs don't grant special bonuses if they like you. And Aztecs never like you.
So yes, China is exactly like the Aztecs if you ignore everything about China except the part where they can invade.
So basic.
It is not only about China but adventurers who emerge with great armies. I do not dispute that there are good things in this dlc but in terms of gameplay these generals and princes , with important armies, are very close to a system, not very thorough , as was the Mongols Of the golden horde and of the ilkhanate , before horse lords . If we compare to sunset invasion and set aside the new cassus belli, it is an expansion that adds events and an invisible entity (with which it is permissible to negotiate), but whose goal First is just to increase the difficulty of the game to the east, not to introduce new forms of gameplay what had done most expansions so far. Moreover, from a historical point of view, it can not be denied that what is presented at the moment is rather inconclusive ; the relations between China and the on-mapp entities seems unilateral; The emperor can affect the political situation of the player but the player has little influence on China, where the situation changes through the events.
The empires founded in India by Chinese generals are just a whimsical addition as was sunset Invasion, except that this one was presented as a "fantasy dlc" (whereas until then, even Satanist secret societies were based on examples, if not historical, at least geographically and logically in terms of games). Tell me what a Chinese general would do in the Bengal, crossing the Himalayas and passing completely alongside Indochina? I hope at least that this will not lead to a multiplication of empires with a "Confucian bureaucracy" not playable on the map.
9.99 euros is a reasonable price for an expansion of this kind, but beyond that it will clearly be excessive.
 

mechl

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Wait even the Song have a 'western protectorate'? The Chinese Dynasty that controlled no land in the CK2 map and had zero tributaries and paid tribute themselves to the Liao Dynasty which is on the CK2 map? Well at least HIP will mod out this ahistorical stuff and maybe implement these mechanics to the 2 much more important empires in the CK2 map/timeperiod with the HRE and Byzantine Empire since it seems Paradox never will.
 

Thure

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Wait even the Song have a 'western protectorate'? The Chinese Dynasty that controlled no land in the CK2 map and had zero tributaries and paid tribute themselves to the Liao Dynasty which is on the CK2 map? Well at least HIP will mod out this ahistorical stuff and maybe implement these mechanics to the 2 much more important empires in the CK2 map/timeperiod with the HRE and Byzantine Empire since it seems Paradox never will.
There wasn't a Western Protectorate in the 1066 start date on the stream. There was the Xia Empire instead.
 

mechl

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There wasn't a Western Protectorate in the 1066 start date on the stream. There was the Xia Empire instead.

Yea the Western Protectorate was only a short period of CK2. Figures they'd ahistorically make the Western Xia a tributary of the Song. A Dynasty that did many things that affected future dynasties (that won't be at all represented) but had a weak army.

We apparently will have magical Chinese Dynasties/generals that can conquer parts of India too so they can try and make this DLC relevant to the region. The logistics of such a thing would be insane. Hell even the Mongols couldn't conquer Indochina (the only feasible way to go into India for a Chinese Dynasty).
 
Last edited:

Bearnest

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This will come off as shallow, but could you please enlarge the Emperor's picture (maybe make it a rectangle) so the hat is visible as whole? As it is right now, it looks as he's wearing a headband when actually he's wearing this:
Liang_Wudi.jpg
 

Thure

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This will come off as shallow, but could you please enlarge the Emperor's picture (maybe make it a rectangle) so the hat is visible as whole? As it is right now, it looks as he's wearing a headband when actually he's wearing this:
Liang_Wudi.jpg

Not possible without changing all existing portraits.
 

Damarrocarion

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Figures they'd ahistorically make the Western Xia a tributary of the Song. A Dynasty that did many things that affected future dynasties (that won't be at all represented) but had a weak army).

But the screenshot shows "Xia" name on it, which means it is not a tributary. Xia was tributary for a short while (before 1066 start) when they agreed to pay for being acknowledged as "kings" but pretty soon they started fighting Liao and Song.
 

TurtleShroom

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I hope that we can take Chinese wives, marry into the Emperor's family, or convert him to our religion.

Imagine a Cathar Greek Dynasty over China, grappling with the Mandate of Heaven and slowly becoming more Chinese in behavior.

It's not CK2 until you turn everything Christian, or Muslim, or pagan...... think of the possibilities.
 

BFKelleher

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So I noticed during the stream that characters that go to the Chinese court essentially get a special "death" reason as they're too far away to be considered alive in the game world. Is it possible for any characters to return a la Marco Polo? Or will people on journeys that include the court of China instead be in the emperor's court instead of "dead?"
 

TurtleShroom

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I still hope there will be a way for us to convert the Emperor's religion (or convert to his religion), or get our own dynasty on the Chinese throne (obviously, we can't play as him, but we should be able to interact with him and help him as family). The Protectorate of the West should be playable, as should the Chinese governments.

Also, I really want a Cathar Chinese dynasty grappling to hold onto the Mandate of Heaven.
 

Teutonic_Thrash

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So these invaders have the same government type as the western protectorate? So I can't usurp them from the inside or play as them? That's kind of no fun.
The Confucian Bureaucracy government description sounds like it is specifically for the Western Protectorate rather than general Sinicised states; so no, I don't these these invaders will have the Confucian Bureaucracy government.
 

klopkr

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The Confucian Bureaucracy government description sounds like it is specifically for the Western Protectorate rather than general Sinicised states; so no, I don't these these invaders will have the Confucian Bureaucracy government.
But isn't Zhao Zhengy the guy showing up in the event picture? That guy has the Confucian Bureaucracy government type as per the ribbons. Or are they showing the Chinese protectorate for some reason?

Oh I see that's the emperor. I kinda wish it showed the guy forming the new kingdom instead of the emperor because I know i'd rather select him during this event.
 
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liredarion

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The Confucian Bureaucracy government description sounds like it is specifically for the Western Protectorate rather than general Sinicised states; so no, I don't these these invaders will have the Confucian Bureaucracy government.
It need to be verrified but on the last picture, the character attached to the right of the message for the event wears Chinese emperor clothes but unlike the portrait of the emperor on the tab dedicated to Chinese interactions, it is surrounded by the ribbon of the " Confucian Government ". But paradox has not answered this question yet , so i'm not sure of that ....
 
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