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Greetings!

In the last DD I touched upon becoming a Tributary, and its associated penalties/advantages. In this DD I’d like to talk about China and their various interests on our side of the map - which more than often includes having Tributaries!

China is mostly content staying within the Middle Kingdom itself, but it is not unheard of for them to want Tributaries outside of it. While only an Expansionist China will actively pursue more and more Tributary States, even a mellow China will want to have a few of them. China will, at times, go to war in order to make someone their tributary state - they will often target small realms in the Tarim Basin or Tibet areas, though small states often tend to give in before an actual war is declared.

GiveIn.png


Even if China has land in the west (the Western Protectorate) they often bring in troops from China. These troops usually arrive in the Anxi region just above Tibet. China, unless Expansionist, does not want to overextend while warring in the west, so they tend to not call upon more troops than they think they need to defeat their target. It’s not uncommon for them to be wrong though, most rulers will be able to defeat China if they outmaneuver them, hire enough mercenaries or simply get lucky. Forcing China into a surrender is a very significant thing to do, the spoils of such a treaty are often way more than enough to recover from the losses.

The power of China rises and wanes with their Status and with time, sometimes they will be weak and sometimes they will be unstoppable. A Stable China will be able to match their enemies should they attack or be attacked, while a China suffering from a Famine or Plague isn’t nearly as strong. If the Western Protectorate has established itself on the map, a good time to strike at them would be during such a status, it is also a good idea if they are suffering Unrest or are in the middle of a Civil War. During times such as those, subjugated realms tend to break free without much opposition from China.

On the other hand - if China is in a Golden Age it would be most unwise to meddle with them. They will be able to summon both more and better troops, and they tend to want larger realms as their tributaries - even if they don’t go after more of them than they would normally. While a China that’s in a Golden Age is more threatening, it’s also more profitable to ask them for Boons as their effects will be much stronger and last for longer.

If China is Expansionist, they will want to secure land for themselves. It is fairly rare for China to be Expansionist. It is the most common when/if they are ruled by the Mongols or other Altaic Emperors. When China is expansionist, it’s not necessarily stronger than it is normally - but it will go after bigger fish. They will target almost any realm, despite size, and try to either force them to pay Tribute or more commonly to subjugate them. Should China lose a war while expansionist, it might be thrown out of Expansionism and into Unrest. Should China be both Expansionist AND in a Golden Age, they will be an unstoppable juggernaut - this is an exceedingly rare combination which at most happen one in every ten games or so.

Worth noting is that China tends to keep to the same area when they go to war. They might, for example, want to make everyone in the Tarim Basin tributaries or subjugate northeastern India. They tend to not divide their interests unless they have to.

TributaryChain.png


It is not only the Emperor who might go to war in the west - adventurers will at time spill out of China in order to make a new home for themselves. There are three major archetypes:

Sinicised Altaic Tribes - The leader of a Taoist Jurchen tribe might arrive along the Silk Road or via the Steppe to make a new home for themselves in the far west. These act much like normal raiding adventurers, though we’ve revamped the raiding adventurer system to be more interactive for the player, with adventurers less often outright attacking you - instead they prefer to haggle, potentially offering you plenty of gold for a province to settle in.

Displaced Princes - After a Civil War is lost, a scion of the former ruling dynasty might escape west. These characters start out with a formidable army and bring a lot of wealth with them. Such characters are very amenable to negotiation, and will often pay you extraordinary sums of wealth to be allowed to settle in your lands.

Rebel Generals - If a Civil War is won, a particularly ambitious general might make his way west to found a new Chinese Empire. They often bring what remains of the rebel armies, making them very dangerous. Having the nerve to found a new Chinese Empire will draw the ire of the ruling dynasty in China, often making them put everything else aside in order to crush the western pretenders.

Rebel General.png


Note that everything regarding Chinese invasions are fully controllable by Game Rules - you can set China to only take Tributaries and never do land grabs, for example. You can also choose to only have the adventurers, with China never extending outside of the Middle Kingdom, among several other settings.
 
Will you be able to destroy the Chinese empire with a strong enough state as an alternative to conquering or puppeting it?
 
The Tibetan Empire and royalty in the earliest game start date should definitely be Buddhist, because I saw someone mention they aren't.

The first Tsenpo of the Tibetan Empire, Songtsen Gampo converted to Buddhism and his family followed. Most of the common people did not do the same however. The only Tibetan emperor who followed Bon was Lamgdarma, who also caused the Tibetan Empire to descend into civil war and never rise again.

Also, it might be a good time to split Buddhism in Mahayana, Theravada and Vajrayana.
 
Why do I have a worst case Scenario in my head that goes like this " China declares war on the holy Roman Empire or byzantine empire ". when it decides to go after larger Realms.. Now maybe i misunderstood and this cant happen.. But for some very odd reason i can see this happening and i do not know why and it scares me.

Also curious there is no outright way to beat china in a war ?. Or did i misunderstood that as well because it seems you can only get them to make peace and you cant outright defeat them (IE take over there land etc )

China has a diplomatic range.

And from what we understand, you can conquer land from the Protectorate like any other realm. The rest of China can't be taken, as its off map.
 
Why Western protectorate does not have emperor as liege?
 
Well this definitely looks like it will finally make me play a full game in India and grab those achievements. However, like many other folks I wonder how it will affect the Altaic Nomads... the dev diary specifically mentions that China is more likely to be expansionist when under the rule of an Altaic dynasty, so there must be some way for that to happen and since you can play as the Mongols already in-game it stands to reason that you should be able to put your dynasty on the Dragon Throne, but it's pretty hard to imagine how that conquest would work since they are off-map.

Hopefully we will hear more soon, and I will be sure and watch the stream later.
 
Twitch stream is live.
 
How did Cheng skip Kamarupa? Does the event target any realms along the Silk Road and not just the ones along the border?
It can target any realm in the East. They tend to target larger realms, a tiny one-province pretender empire wouldn't be as cool. :)

Will the composition of the Chinese army vary based on the dynasty or golden age
The quality of the Chinese army varies by age (stronger in the later parts of the game) and status (i.e. Famine - less quality, Golden Age - higher quality).

With regards to the adventurers and princes, if you give them land do they become vassals or independent rulers?
Vassals :)

I feel that China will be a constant looming threat while playing in the East.
Love it!
They can just as well be your friend, just remember to pay tribute!

How are the Chinese religions going to work outside of China?
Are they unplayable?
Taoism is playable, and there's quite a few characters of that religion you can select as and play. Taoism is going to be the ultimate religion for players enjoying playing tall, as they lack holy wars but gain access to Schools (much like Hindu patron deities) with very powerful bonuses.
 
Sinicised Altaic Tribes - The leader of a Taoist Jurchen tribe might arrive along the Silk Road or via the Steppe to make a new home for themselves in the far west. These act much like normal raiding adventurers, though we’ve revamped the raiding adventurer system to be more interactive for the player, with adventurers less often outright attacking you - instead they prefer to haggle, potentially offering you plenty of gold for a province to settle in.

Somehow i remember AGOT system where dothraki raided you. you get the option to pay them to stay away.
 
Later Tang and Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period Rebal Generals feature in CK2 is great. because it's reasonable in history, but if it often happens in Song Dynasty, it is weird. My advice is different Chinese history Dynasty has their own & unique historical features.

Well, that's an other design path entirely. I guess we could have imagined something more like this, but the devs chose to make chinese history more random. Which is, in my opinion, more consistent with the general design of the game. Your idea looks more like a feature EU4 would have.
 
i have to say, i was originally let down by the choice of the Off-Map Limited China over an actual map expansion.

but the more i hear about how this solution has been fleshed out, the more convinced i am that it is gonna do China justice.

(of course i still fully expect a whole, functioning China, Japan, SE Asia and Swahili Coast in CK3. ;) )
 
So I dare say the Qara Khitai(Former Liao Dynasty or Western Liao) will finally be fleshed out more in campaign and wear Chinese clothing and have the Confucian Bureaucracy type government. They would be considered displaced princes as an example??? As Yelu Dashi led the Khitan royal family and troops to Transoxiana
 
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