CK2 Dev Diary #61: The Dragon Throne

[Aztlantix]

Also, I think would be great that if Protectorate grows relatively too strong there would trigger event that China send sunset-invasion-style troops to punish you, with excommunicated type of casus belli

 

[blackninja9939]

Does it require the DLC? Or is going to be like Society's and the framework is part of the patch it just wont be used in the game for China unless you own the DLC?

The system is open to modders to use without the DLC like the Societies and Artifact systems are.

 

[Bearnest]

China is too big in size and scope to cop out with this solution. I can see why some people are disappointed that you can't invade and conquer it. China also has little to no impact on the part of the map the game mainly focus on: Europe and the Middle East (epidemics notwithstanding, of course).
IMHO, China deserves a standalone game and it should include the 3 kingdoms era (the fall of the Han dynasty).

You wonät even notice it is a globe since you'll be limited to a certain part of it an can't zoom out enough to notice it. Consider google earth when zoomed in that is always a globe but it looks flat when zoomed in (but since it is a globe suffers much less from projection errors).

this.

Hopefully in CK3 we'll have the world map projected over a globe that you rotate a la google earth instead of a flat map that distorts the real features.

 

[Caspian Mortis]

Actually I was mistaken, Taizong and Gaozing and such are temple names, not era names. Temple names aren't used to refer to an emperor until after their death.

So I guess just referring to them with their personal name is okay. Using their era names would be very unusual and unrecognizable.

Also, will we be able to marry into the emperor's family? Or marry the emperor himself?

 

[Foreign Alien]

The idea that using their personal names would make them unrecognizable is absurd. Anyone who cares in the first place will have the know how to do their own historical research. Most of the famous emperors such as Tang Taizong with notable history prior to their accession as emperor are also well know by their given names, such as Li Shimin.

 

[Mikaa]

So many awesome RPG features that could be added to make the game even better for every place you pick.
What do we get ? A pop up window called China....

 

[Orinsul]

Fantastic
Khmer Empire would fit like this too.

Oh hey, fantasy things too. Hows your Kingdoms relationship with Faerie? lets pop over to the Oberon Screen and see

 

[sreckom92]

So many awesome RPG features that could be added to make the game even better for every place you pick.
What do we get ? A pop up window called China....

It's not an rpg feature?
You now get to interact with the most powerful realm on the planet, and not pretend it doesn't exist.
And besides, let's see about other features of this expansion, before making a final judgement?

 

[Thure]

The Prince-Electors were around and and active prior to their formal establishment by the golden bull in 1356. The great interregnum of the HRE in 1257 was caused by a split vote between the 7 Kurfürsten. Pope Urban IV even said at this time that the 7 Prince-Electors had been the ones designated to elect the Emperor as "immerorial custom" as well.

They did exist. But they were not as powerful as later. They were just electors. Nothing special like in later eras.

And it wasn't an 'immerorial custom'. In ealier era nearly all vassals of the emperor were part of the election. It just moved over time to the prince electors.

 

[TheDungen]

I know full damned well what the Stem Duchies are. The Four Nations of Germany and the Stem Duchies aren't the same thing, although they do overlap. The Four Nations are the descendants of the tribes that colinized Germany, the Suebi, the Franks, the Saxons, and the Bavarii. As I noted in a previous post, the Holy Roman Empire has been elective since Otto I, who was elected by the Saxon Dukes, and we have references to the Kurfurst starting in the early 12th Century. I have no idea where you got it in your head that the Emperor was elected only after the fall of the Hohenstaufens, but it simply isn't true. I'm not entirely sure what your last sentance is suppossed to mean, but several of the Imperial Reforms of EUIV never happened in reality. Land was not added to the Empire at the expense of the old, the Holy Roman Empire fell apart after the Treaty of Westphalia stripped the Emperor of his authority over the states of the Empire, not becase the Hapsburgs gained more land.

Eh no the emperor was always elected as was the king of the saxons and the king of the germans (and the king of the anglosaxons, the king of the frisians, the king of the swedes, danes, norwegians, and so on, elective monarchy of sort is a pangermanic idea, th only exception are the franks who aren't per se a tribe but descendants of german auxillaries who served in rome) but before the fall of the hohenstaufens there was a greater number of nobles involved in the election proces slike in ck2. There may have been kurfursts prior to that but they weren't linked to the election process.
And yes it was, the more land the habsburgs added to their own domains in the danube basin the more threatened the rules of the rhine and elbe basins felt and the more they pulled away from the empire. Rather than centralizing the Habsburgs used the imperial throne for their own dynastic gain and it the fabric of the empire down.
The treaty of westphalia was just the formalization of what was already the case. The reformation itself just became a rallying cry for division in the empire that were already there. I hard to say when it began but it became unavoidable when Chales V was elected, holding far to great and powerful lands outside of the empire, and using that force way to carelessly, bribing and even threatening electors to gain the imperial throne in the first place.
Yeah eu4 rewards doing what the Habsburgs did in reality the very actions that led to the dissolution of the empire, but somehow makes them the things you should do to unite the empire. Which is totally wrong.
And that's why ck2 doesn't need a HRE mechanic because it already handles the HRE better than EU4 does.

The Prince-Electors were around and and active prior to their formal establishment by the golden bull in 1356. The great interregnum of the HRE in 1257 was caused by a split vote between the 7 Kurfürsten. Pope Urban IV even said at this time that the 7 Prince-Electors had been the ones designated to elect the Emperor as "immerorial custom" as well.

Has it occurred to you that the pope simply didn't know what he was talking about. Because we have sources that show that there were other nobles involved in the election process prior to the fall of the Hohenstaufen.

@ChaosOnline What about my post were you disagreeing with? In 1257 Richard of Cornwall received votes from the electors of Cologne, Mainz, The Palatinate and Bohemia while Alfonso X of Castile received votes from the electors of Saxony, Brandenburg, and Trier.

First of source, secondly just because you couldn't take power without having a good number of the kurfurst on your side doesn't mean only they voted. and them increasingly defacto being the only votes that mattered is what eld to the golden bull. Also 1257 is the fall of the hohenstaufens.

They did exist. But they were not as powerful as later. They were just electors. Nothing special like in later eras.

And it wasn't an 'immerorial custom'. In ealier era nearly all vassals of the emperor were part of the election. It just moved over time to the prince electors.

Exactly, while there were loads of nobles involved most of them went with one of the powerful ones, and as such over time the powerful ones were treated as carrying to vote of the lesser ones, who stopped being asked.

 

[Rajiin]

While I like the idea of China being added as an 'entity' I must voice my dis-pleasure with this expansion, my most disliked DLC is Rajas of india, now don't get me wrong I like India and I even appreciate having the religions around, but like back then I couldn't help but think of all the things still missing in Europe.

So I think I'm just going to hang up any hopes that the dev team will ever do anything to differentiate the pagans other than sorting them into 'offensive' and 'defensive' groups and watching almost all of them join their respective 'lucifers own' since that is the only society they really get access too.

Well, hopefully this doesn't screw with performance as bad as Rajas did and I can mostly ignore its existence.

 

[Vokasak]

Cool.

 

[TheDungen]

While I like the idea of China being added as an 'entity' I must voice my dis-pleasure with this expansion, my most disliked DLC is Rajas of india, now don't get me wrong I like India and I even appreciate having the religions around, but like back then I couldn't help but think of all the things still missing in Europe.

So I think I'm just going to hang up any hopes that the dev team will ever do anything to differentiate the pagans other than sorting them into 'offensive' and 'defensive' groups and watching almost all of them join their respective 'lucifers own' since that is the only society they really get access too.

Well, hopefully this doesn't screw with performance as bad as Rajas did and I can mostly ignore its existence.

Turn of devil worshipers. Best way to send them a message that you don't like the feature.

 

[Andrelvis]

While I like the idea of China being added as an 'entity' I must voice my dis-pleasure with this expansion, my most disliked DLC is Rajas of india, now don't get me wrong I like India and I even appreciate having the religions around, but like back then I couldn't help but think of all the things still missing in Europe.

So I think I'm just going to hang up any hopes that the dev team will ever do anything to differentiate the pagans other than sorting them into 'offensive' and 'defensive' groups and watching almost all of them join their respective 'lucifers own' since that is the only society they really get access too.

Well, hopefully this doesn't screw with performance as bad as Rajas did and I can mostly ignore its existence.

I am quite excited for this expansion, but I do agree that it would be nice if more content were added to Europe itself. Societies add a lot of depth to the game, but the feature could really benefit from more societies being added. Maybe this DLC will add more? We don't know yet the full extent of its features (far from it). Orders of chivalry (for example) would be interesting, as would warrior organizations for pagan characters. Some of those are already represented by holy orders, but I don't think that's an impediment, as the Assassins are both a holy order and a society. In fact, a society helps add depth to a holy order title, by making it possible for it to have supporters throughout the various lands, without them needing to be located in the order's court.

 

[Slime99]

Will Tibetan empire have a tributary in Bengal? It was the Pala kingdom that paid them tribute.

 

[Meathim]

Yes, but later Johan stated "we will keep making them if people keep buying them", so there might be more.

Off topic, but honestly this is the wrong way to go IMO, because people will buy them. They/We'll stop when the devs release CK3 and actively cease development on CK2, and people will still moan - and rightly so - unless CK3 is ... well you know. So they are in a tough spot. They really need a new engine first I think, a brand new engine.

Spoiler

While we're dreaming I want Vicky 3, a new (better) HoI, EU5, a Cold War game, some game set in modern times (or not, could be skipped) and most importantly a tool for converting save games between the games so you could take your nation from whenever CK starts and all the way up to Stellaris. While we're dreaming.

Also Havets Vargar.

 

[Rajiin]

Turn of devil worshipers. Best way to send them a message that you don't like the feature.

I don't mind devil worshipers, in fact I thoroughly like the feature. I just dislike that the pagan religions have no monastic orders to counteract them.

 

[Andrelvis]

I don't mind devil worshipers, in fact I thoroughly like the feature. I just dislike that the pagan religions have no monastic orders to counteract them.

Maybe warrior cults instead of monastic orders? The latter feel a bit out of place for pagans. Playing in Thor's Chosen and smiting the Jotun-worshippers could be pretty interesting, and fitting conceptually.

 

[JP5243]

Eh no the emperor was always elected as was the king of the saxons and the king of the germans (and the king of the anglosaxons, the king of the frisians, the king of the swedes, danes, norwegians, and so on, elective monarchy of sort is a pangermanic idea, th only exception are the franks who aren't per se a tribe but descendants of german auxillaries who served in rome) but before the fall of the hohenstaufens there was a greater number of nobles involved in the election proces slike in ck2. There may have been kurfursts prior to that but they weren't linked to the election process.
And yes it was, the more land the habsburgs added to their own domains in the danube basin the more threatened the rules of the rhine and elbe basins felt and the more they pulled away from the empire. Rather than centralizing the Habsburgs used the imperial throne for their own dynastic gain and it the fabric of the empire down.
The treaty of westphalia was just the formalization of what was already the case. The reformation itself just became a rallying cry for division in the empire that were already there. I hard to say when it began but it became unavoidable when Chales V was elected, holding far to great and powerful lands outside of the empire, and using that force way to carelessly, bribing and even threatening electors to gain the imperial throne in the first place.
Yeah eu4 rewards doing what the Habsburgs did in reality the very actions that led to the dissolution of the empire, but somehow makes them the things you should do to unite the empire. Which is totally wrong.
And that's why ck2 doesn't need a HRE mechanic because it already handles the HRE better than EU4 does.



Has it occurred to you that the pope simply didn't know what he was talking about. Because we have sources that show that there were other nobles involved in the election process prior to the fall of the Hohenstaufen.


First of source, secondly just because you couldn't take power without having a good number of the kurfurst on your side doesn't mean only they voted. and them increasingly defacto being the only votes that mattered is what eld to the golden bull. Also 1257 is the fall of the hohenstaufens.


Exactly, while there were loads of nobles involved most of them went with one of the powerful ones, and as such over time the powerful ones were treated as carrying to vote of the lesser ones, who stopped being asked.

At this point, we are going to have to agree to disagree. I highly suggest you do more reading on the history of the Holy Roman Empire.

 

[CorpusIurisCivilis]

i think some people have forgoten that the name of this series is CRUSADER KINGS...not Europa Universalis or Old World...whatever...Crusader Kings focuses on events surrounding the Mediterraneum NOT THE FAR EAST OR SUB SAHARAN AFRICA OR JAPAN OR WHAT EVER...im happy with all that we have right now nad i verry much enjoy the fact that we get a pseudo relation with china but seriously people Crusader Kings isn't about youy building the Caliphate of China...get a damn grip you overly privilliged children. Be grateful of what you have and if you want to play as China go play EU4