CK2 Dev Diary #61: The Dragon Throne

[ChaosOnline]

And roughly of the same importance to the greater scheme of things. Both are island countries who really don't do much of note in this era.

England participated in the Crusades and several other continental wars. They were also invaded by the vikings and ruled large portions of France for a long period of time. England, at the very least, did a lot of note in this era.

 

[Wudadi]

Emperor Daizong of Tang
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Daizong_of_Tang
Li Yu is Northern Asian
Paradox's portrait like Southesst Asian e.g. Cantonese, Vietnamese.....
Western people always using Southesst Asian to represent all Chinesse
Northern Asian are "Roman(prominent) nose" small nostril

 

[DukeOfValois1]

So you're continuing the 'mile wide, inch deep' philosophy for these final DLCs? Great. Guess we don't need any depth to the mechanics of medieval Europe and the Islamic world. Nope. It's not like this game is centered around it at all.

I can't wait for the gimmicks in the next DD.

 

[cools0812]

Xia did sometime pay tribute to Liao like for example during Yizong's reign. My guess they will have Song portrayed by this mechanic, as the "true" China.

Song is the "true" China judging by culture but, it's not in a position to project power or any interaction in the Inner Asia (expect maybe some brief period before the fall of Northern Song, when they established control over Qinghai). Xia is the kingdom with most influence in Tarim Basin, but it's hard to consider Xia a great power especially comparing to Liao and Song. I would say Liao (and then, Jurchen Jin)is the best choice here, since it ruled some provinces of CK2 map as its frontier so it is not ridiculous to see Liao and Jurchen sending forces to fight us, or set up a protectorate, even though it's not the most "sinic" chinese state in the time frame.

Yeah, come to think it, the whole "protectorate of the west" mechanic is kinda unfit for the CK2 time period. In the first start date (769), the Anxi Protectorate of Tang was already cut off from the china proper by Tibetan Empire. The Anxi fought on their own heroically for the next 40 years without imperial support, but they were eventually conquered by Tibet and the Chinese influence in the Inner Asia was never restored. So Tang certainly weren't able to send forces to our "visible world" from 769 to its demise (at least, not a force big enough to defeat the Tibetan blockade) Then it's the total chaos period called Five Dynasties when there even wasnt a "China" to interact with. We discussed the period the Song-Xia-Liao co-existence, then there's the mongols. The mongol Yuan dynasty is the only "Chinese empire" we might encounter in CK2 time frame that is formidable and free to project power in Inner Asia, but dont we have tons of mechanics and events dealing with mongol invasions already?

 

[liredarion]

This thread is full of people congratulating Paradox for doing nothing. Why?

I completely agree. It is possible to find the idea of an off-map China interesting but as it is presented here, it does not frankly inspire me and i think all those congratulations are not yet justified . I hope that , what will be announced later will be more promising because basing an expansion on an invisible entity and a system of vassal-states is a bit meager . I'm waiting to see what will be presented later but I hope in any case that the price that will be requested for this expansion won't be the same as for RoI or HL, wich proposed real changes of gameplay.

 

[ChaosOnline]

The mechanic to adding China seems interesting, so can we also expect SE Asia and Japan alongside China.

I'd be very interested in seeing that as well!

 

[Lemont Elwood]

So can you, you know, conquer China? That's pretty important for the Mongols.

Of course, the conquest would have to be handled as (detailed) event chains and modifiers.

 

[DukeOfValois1]

Ya this new DLC is going over well with the fan base.

Probably because what they actually want is not what they're getting.

 

[Foreign Alien]

Probably because what they actually want is not what they're getting.

Yes, but the question is, who exactly IS getting what they want?

 

[DukeOfValois1]

Yes, but the question is, who exactly IS getting what they want?

People who should be asking for a standalone China game. That country's history is long and complex enough to warrant one, imo.

 

[sreckom92]

Yes, but the question is, who exactly IS getting what they want?

I don't know...there's a fair share of people who like the OP.

 

[Foreign Alien]

People who should be asking for a standalone China game. That country's history is long and complex enough to warrant one, imo.

So let me get this straight. The DLC where you don't get to play in China is targeted at people who want to play in China?

Paradox logic.

 

[CrackdToothGrin]

Paradox's portrait like Southesst Asian e.g. Cantonese, Vietnamese.....
Western people always using Southesst Asian to represent all Chinesse
Northern Asian are "Roman(prominent) nose" small nostril

I can promise you that I didn't base the portraiture on only Southeast Asian people. You've only seen one image. Wait until there are more images.

 

[Legionary Guard]

Yes, but the question is, who exactly IS getting what they want?

Not very many people are getting exactly what they want, but it seems like most of us are at least getting something we can live with. But that's the nature of compromise: it leaves everybody feeling kinda shafted.

You've got the pro-China radicals on one hand who desire nothing less than the full inclusion of China - and, in some cases, the entirety of East Asia.
You've got the anti-China radicals on the other hand who start frothing at the mouth at the very mention of China - and some of them also contend that India was a mistake.

And then you have the moderates, like me. Pro- or anti-China, we accept that this thing probably isn't getting axed anytime soon and that it's probably the best compromise that Paradox can come up with that isn't pissing off too many people. Even if I'd prefer we not touch China with a ten-foot-pole, I'm not particularly averse to what Paradox is implementing now.

 

[VoodooEconomist]

Don't bother, he seems to have gone from throwing tantrums to validating his outrage via the echo chamber that is reddit. Let's not provoke this any further it's gotten ugly enough.

 

[DukeOfValois1]

So let me get this straight. The DLC where you don't get to play in China is targeted at people who want to play in China?

Paradox logic.

Honestly, yes. This mechanic, as seen before, is a compromise for Chinese inclusion without having to expand the map eastward and slowing this game down to MEIOU levels. IMHO, though, it's half-assed and utterly unnecessary when more European things need to be fixed or added. Cadet dynasties. Theocracies. The HRE. Etc etc.

 

[Foreign Alien]

Honestly, yes. This mechanic, as seen before, is a compromise for Chinese inclusion without having to expand the map eastward and slowing this game down to MEIOU levels. IMHO, though, it's half-assed and utterly unnecessary when more European things need to be fixed or added. Cadet dynasties. Theocracies. The HRE. Etc etc.

So you agree then that instead of improving core gameplay mechanics, Paradox is releasing a half-assed and utterly unnecessary DLC.

 

[treb]

one thing to remember is if we get a bureaucratic government there will be a litany of mods that will add china to the base game

 

[cools0812]

If the devs really want to focus on China for the next patch, I'd like to see something done with the Guiyi Army. Since the devs dont want to add chinese provinces to the map, it's the only possible Han chinese regime to play in the world of CK2. Established by Han chinese uprising against Tibet in 851 (fifty year after the Tang protectorate mentioned in the dev diary were crushed by Tibetans)and survived until 1030, the Guiyi Army was a regime based in Dunhuang, de jure vassal of the Tang but enjoyed de facto independence (becuz the Tang empire by then was just too weak to actually do anything in the west), so the internal succession was basically chinese primogeniture, perfectly playable in CK2.
It should be there in the 867 scenario in Dunhuang, but there isn't. I guess it's because devs wont bother with the specific culture, portraits and marriage rules that must be done if you want be add a Han chinese house in the game. Now you have it --there has to be a chinese culture now for this untouchable Tang emperor alone, right? Then please do it, add this little piece of history into the game. please.

 

[Foreign Alien]

From a historical standpoint this DLC doesn't even make sense. The only time in the CK2 era when a core Chinese civilization, not Tangut, Liao, or Khitans, had any kind of control over the current map was in 769 and 867.

However even in those two bookmarks the surviving protectorates were largely cut off from China with minimal communication. The historical Anxi Protectorate was conquered by the Tibetans a decade into the game. The Guiyi Protectorate was essentially an autonomous Chinese kingdom that paid homage to the fast declining Tang dynasty.

China would not regain control over Xinjiang again until the Qing dynasty hundreds of years after the end of CK2.

Not having China as playable map completely defeats the point of a China DLC because much of the attraction is keeping the Tang dynasty alive, or creating your own dynasty and taking it to the far edges of known Chinese historical control. People want to play as China or conquer China. A China DLC where neither are truly possible sounds uninspired.