CK2: Dev Diary #117 - Historical Wonders

[Volphied]

Im currently on my phone but its a good question that you should make a thread about. Im sure if we look into it there are references of stonehenge being associated with pagan worship from ck2 times. Maybe not. Either way in the future, especially if theres an imperium-ck2 converter there will be celtic paganism and it will be somehow tied into stonehenge (likely moral authority stuff i mentioned earlier). So its better to have this conversation now and all evidence laid out for the devs.

There really isn't any evidence. Druidic paganism was inherently tied with forests and sacred groves. A bunch of stones in the middle of a plain is the exact opposite of what they imagined as a site of worship. All the stuff associating druids with Stonehenge was made up centuries after celtic paganism vanished and its practices were forgotten.

 

[Xoatl]

There really isn't any evidence. Druidic paganism was inherently tied with forests and sacred groves. A bunch of stones in the middle of a plain is the exact opposite of what they imagined as a site of worship. All the stuff associating druids with Stonehenge was made up centuries after celtic paganism vanished and its practices were forgotten.

Not entirely true, there are three major sets of stone circles in ireland associated with celtic worship as well as the carnac stones in brittany.

In fact id argue the notion that druids saw the stone circles as "unnatural" is the incorrect modern conception. I doubt they held any such distinction. "Wheres my forests and springs? I cant worship with all these rocks in the way" is something a druid probably never said.

 

[SacremPyrobolum]

What Protestants?


Cappadocia, I think.

nd

I was talking about the buildings for EU4.

 

[Kukumarro]

I agree that those EU4 modifiers need a nerf. Why not export the less special wonders as EU4 buildings? So the great university becomes an university, a cathedral/grand mosque/grand temple becomes a cathedral, a great fortress becomes a bastion, a great harbor becomes a drydock, a great lighthouse becomes a stock exchange... After all, how couldn't you build in 1700 something that you could build in 1200?

 

[ryson_11]

My suggestion for having more than one wonder per County would be to have certain wonders replace holdings like baronies, churches, and cities. And also have the unique art replacing the generic ones. So your great palace or fort would replace your capital barony, great cathedrals would replace churches and great cities like Venice with its canals replace regular cities. That way you could still have a space to create other wonders like statues, libraries or tombs that don't fit those categories.

So you could have the Hagia Sofia or St. Peters replace a church holding and still have room for another wonder. And it would change all churches and baronies from looking exactly the same in game. I think this would be awesome, just saying.

 

[Duuk]

Hey, does anyone know if the Hagia Sofia will be in?

 

[MonzUn]

What on Earth made you think Stonehenge should look like that?

Here's a painting of Stonehenge from the late 1500s.

The historical Great Works share artwork with their generic counterparts (Pagan Stones in this case).
In addition to that, it's showing the damaged state and that typically corresponds to the second or third stage in terms of how far construction had gotten.
I think that the stone circle and other things are added on later stages but I'm not entirely sure.

 

[zz77]

Wikipedia says that Konark Temple was built in the 13th century.

Also it's kinda weird to see the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus on Tibetan landscape.

 

[MonzUn]

Rome looking a lot like a completely empty grassland over there.

I assume some of that art is still work in progress? The Apostolic Palace is stilling on a plain green tablecloth...

A generic "city" background pucture would be welcome for cathedrals, amphitheatre and other eminently urban wonders

The backgrounds are separate and made so that they should work with all Great Works. Because of this, it's difficult to add in a lot of details without imposing a lot of restrictions on the Great Work images.
Adding an urban version would in addition to that have taken a lot of art resources as you would have to reflect the city density as well as all the architectural style mandated by the province culture. The background will change depending on the province terrain though.

Edit:
Oh, and it is possible to override both the backgrounds and the wonder images via mods = )

 

[MonzUn]

Will it be possible to remake
Konark Sun Temple or mausoleum as christian cathedral?
Common great mocque as cathedral?
Will they save their original look with new functions?

P.s. agree about st. Sofia. We need it.

Converting a Great Work from one type to another was a stretch goal we had for this update that unfortunately did not make it in.

 

[MonzUn]

Hagia Sophia in Constantinople!

Now that that is out of the way, will loading an existing save add the Wonders in, or will save games started before the patch just be empty of wonders?
Also, can the wonders be turned off (like a DLC), or are they part of vanilla now?

Loading a previous save would leave the world devoid of historical Great Works as these are created when we resolve history at the beginning of the game.
Great Works can be turned off in the game rules. It can also be set to allow only the historical ones and if you want to be really strict you can also set it to a restrictive mode where the great Works exist but neither you nor the AI can change them in any way.

 

[Keizer Harm]

Roses are red
Paradox made a blunder
The Hagia Sophia
Should be a Wonder

 

[Riekopo]

I don't like things like the Hagia Sophia being excluded...

 

[IndigoRage]

What happened to poor Stonehenge?!? Even the earliest realisistic drawings of the location still had the rough "arches" (what else do you call them?) intact. It's two miles from the closest town, so unlikely to have been pillaged. Multiple realistic drawings dating from 1500s and some photos dating to the late 1800s are on the Wikipedia article.

Yeah, stonehenge was more of a ruin than it is today before it was restored, but not THAT much of a ruin.

 

[Andrzej I]

Converting a Great Work from one type to another was a stretch goal we had for this update that unfortunately did not make it in.

Shame. Is it likely to be included in a future patch?

 

[Spaninq]

@MonzUn

Thanks for the replies, especially since you made them during your Friday evening, after hours. You've at the very least allayed my fears about Stonehenge

 

[TheDarkMaster]

I just realized, where are the great mosques of Damascus and Cordoba? Both existed during this time frame.

Plus nothing in Mecca itself? They could probably go the same route as Rome of having a base level wonder in place so that the AI is more inclined to renovate and upgrade it over time, as what happened historically.

The underground city is the one wonder here that took me by surprise. I did not see something like that coming as an option.

 

[Spaninq]

As someone who might consider the CK2->EU4 conversion aspect of wonders, what happens when two nearby provinces that both house fully upgraded wonders (say, from bordering provinces of bordering kingdoms) merge into the same province in EU4? I assume that's what happens to provinces that are featured in CK2, but not EU4 (like the Isle of Wight, there being 5 provinces in Sicily in CK2 instead of 4 in EU4, Ruegen, Kolguyev, etc).

 

[ChaosOnline]

Is this the full list of historical wonders? Do any more exist in later dates? I guess it just seems a little short to me. I'd love to see something in Mecca or some of the famous Indian Universities be represented as Wonders as well.

 

[Jarl Galdur]

Can't wait for this update!
If you don't plan on making a city background, maybe increasing the Great Work image size so it hides the background? Because right now the Apostolic Palace looks like a building placed in an empty editor map..
The House of Wisdom also really looks like the Library of Parliament here in Canada, but aside from that everything looks great!
(Also, I still hope Mont Saint-Michel will be there from the Old Gods start!)