CK2 Dev Diary #106 - New Succession Laws Extravaganza

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Silfae

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In regards to eldership, are there any penalties if you attack/imprison/kill/etc the elder electors?
Yes, all the other Elders will get really mad at you. Killing an Elder will likely make all other Elders Displeased for a very long time.
 

Silfae

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Are vassals still feudal?

My real question is if you secret Hellenic the Roman empire with a doctrine that allows heir designations, will it overwrite this succession law? Mix it with maybe?
Yes, only the Emperor uses the new government form, just like it happens with Merchant Republics. Its vassals will belong to any of the other regular governments.
Imperial Elective takes precedence, just like any elective succession does. In the case of Imperial Elective, one should consider that it is in some way a more complex version of heir designation already. The Emperor's preference bears a considerable value on who is going to be the successor to the throne, especially if the Emperor is competent and has good traits. If your voting power far outweighs that of your vassals, you are able to pick whoever you like, even if nobody else likes him. The system tries to emulate the historical reality that, although the Emperor was technically in charge, if enough influential people in the court were against his preferred heir, somebody else would end up getting the throne.
Aren't excommunications a valid cause? I think this means that if in another state you would get an opinion penalty with other vassals for imprisoning without cause, you just can't do it in the Byzantine Empire. Excommunications give you a valid cause to imprison without opinion malus, therefore you can use that as a reason (unless I'm reading it wrong).
Cannot imprison without a reason is already a feature for Merchant Republics, you can expect it to work in exactly the same way for the Imperial Government.
 

Silfae

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So if I understand correctly, the elector titles are prioritized regardless of their government (including Mainz, Köln and Trier)? Will the game aim towards three spiritual and four secular electors? Can a single character possess multiple of these prioritized elector titles (Mainz and Franconia seems likely due to Mainz being de jure Franconia) and receive multiple votes?
Having more than one Elector title does not grant multiple votes (or reduce the number of electors), this is to avoid exploitation. The way the system works, the two factors are taken into account separately: holders of the electoral titles are always prioritized, if one is missing or invalid for some reason and a new elector must be chosen, theocracies receive a slight prioritization.
Can the player become a respected commander in Byzantium and become the successor via that?
Sure.
 

Silfae

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A question for Imperial Elective, though! How strong of an influence does born in the purple get for candidate score? And how likely is it that an emperor's close family will lose out to a non-dynastic candidate in your experience? As far as I can recall, most of the cases where the Roman Empire changed dynasties it was more due to civil war or a lack of legitimate candidate, with most dynasties managing to remain in power until they either died out or had a particularly weak candidate.
Born in the Purple makes considerably more likely for Electors to favor a candidate. As for the trait itself, having it as an Emperor does not grant additional voting power, but NOT having it as the Byzantine Emperor will reduce your base voting power by -15.
Regarding my experience with the AI handling Imperial Elective, it does tend to follow more historical patterns. Popular Emperors tend to pass the title down to their adult close relatives, claimant factions are more common since the "change succession type" factions are no longer available; changes in dynasties usually happen when a weak Emperor is in power. I've definitely seen the Komnenoi taking over the Empire on their own a few times with this new setup when starting in 1066, for example.

Edit: And one question for Princely Elective, also: what happens if, say, the Duchy of Bohemia gets inherited by the Emperor, removing it as an elector... and then it gets created again? Does the newly created elector lose his electoral powers in favor of new Bohemia, or does new Bohemia not get electoral powers until another slot opens up?
Historical titles are always prioritized, so the non-official elector would lose his voting rights once the Duchy has been assigned to a new vassal. If the Emperor holds onto it that doesn't count, of course.
 

Silfae

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This looks so awesome. Idk how are you guys going to top this DLC. Btw, speaking of Byzantine succession, what about adoption mechanism? Emperor should be able to adopt a nephew or some other kid and name him his heir.
Adoption (as in, make somebody that is not of your dynasty become of your dynasty) is not allowed for balance reasons, but Imperial Elective does allow to pick any close relative as a potential candidate. Naturally, if you pick your non-dynastic nephew to succeed you, you will not get to play as him once your current ruler dies.

In the description for the Imperial gov type it says "Can build castle, city, temple, fort & hospital holdings". Does this mean that other gov types will have restrictions on what holding types they can build? Since it seems strange that it would say that they can build all the holding types if this wasn't the case.
No, the list is already present in the current version. For example, Nomads cannot build any castles, city, temples, etc., Feudals cannot build tribal holdings, and so forth.

Does the new government type for the Roman/Byzantine empire lock you out of been able to switch to Chinese imperialism from jade dragon when you meet the requirements?

As I recall Chinese imperialism would allow you to select a different secsession type bit I could be very wrong as I never truly tried it out.
Adopting Chinese Imperialism would replace your primary title with a custom one, so you would no longer have access to the Imperial Elective succession.
Does that include the special Form HRE Decision in the 769 start? Right now, it does not set succession law to Feudal Elective.

Also, will the same list of "traditional" Princely Electors be used if you form the HRE without even holding Germany? So will the electors suddenly switch to dukes in Germany if it drifts into your de jure?
If you use the Form HRE early decision, it will not apply the succession law, if you use the official Charlemagne decision, it will get it.
As for the electoral titles, yes, as of now, if you get into dejure Germany, they will start being prioritized.
What religions is Eldership tied to? Will Suomenusko be able to start with it?
No, Romuva and African. It can be unlocked through Reformation for other religions, though.
if I am elector as Bohemia and I get elected does the duchy of bohemia stop being an elector in future?
As long as the current Emperor holds one elector title, the title is considered "vacant" and will be filled by another vassal. Regardless of what titles are active, you are still always going to have 7 vassal electors + 1 voting Emperor.
 

Silfae

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So uncle Charlie's hre will have prince electors?

Feels like it should be a decision which grants you a vassal cap increase honestly.

And is there really no changes to merchant republics?
It may not be a decision, but it does increase your vassal limit.
No, no changes to Merchant Republics succession.
 

Silfae

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@Silfae will be there update to converter with HF?
I believe so, yes.

What will preferences for Tanistry be now?
The list of AI behavior modifiers is extremely long, too long to post it here. Talking about Tanistry specifically, I can say that, compared to Feudal Elective, electors tend to prefer adult candidates, members of the extended family rather than direct descendants of the current ruler, and to be slightly more concerned about the heir's culture compared to other elective successions. There might be other differences that I am forgetting right now.

What if elders are mutual rivals?
Same penalty, or lessened because "It's kinda setting bad precedent, but tbh that asshole had it coming!" ?
It's going to upset them regardless, even if they hate the Elder in question.
 

Silfae

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- Is it possible to change the number of electors in Princely Elective during the game (with events/etc.)?
Not as a direct command, no. It might be possible to simulate a change in their number with some workaround, playing with the elector selection or creating variants of the election itself, but by default, the max number of electors (if defined) is set in the succession law itself and remains static when in game.
- Is it possible for the number of electors under Princely Elective to be different for different realms?
No, but you could set different variants of the same succession law, and mod it so, depending on the realm, when the law is implemented, it follows one or the other depending on whatever triggers you wish to set.
- Is there a way to scope to the top X candidates (or all candidates with at least one vote) and their supporters post-election (or on_death for the title holder) if we want to do something like e.g. give them the option to instantly start a civil war for the throne?
Hm, not sure about this, @Divine might know.
- Is it possible to scale voting power based on manpower/personal levies/retinues/etc. or on demesne size?
It should be possible to use most existing conditions that can be set as a trigger for a character or title, yes.
- Is it possible to block specific electors from voting in an election (e.g. an imprisoned traitor (or "traitor"))?
You could script it so that an Elector with the "traitor" modifier or who is imprisoned by the liege is no longer a valid elector, which would prevent him from voting until the condition preventing him from being a valid elector is removed.
- Would it be possible to do "appointment voting" (for viceroyalties) where the liege and his councillors (and perhaps the holder, since he might try to buy votes) are the electors and the title instantly goes to the chosen successor?
That should be possible, yes.
- Given the party realm example, is it possible to script some elections to take place every X years instead of on_death?
Maybe there is a workaround to make something like this work, but it would need to be handled by events, there is no specific command for it that I know of.
- Since it is somewhat similar to Princely Elective, is Papal succession's voting logic moddable?
No, Papal Succession itself is not counted as an elective type (same for the Merchant Republic succession) in this context. I suppose it could be possible to mod different successions with this system and tie them to theocracies and Cardinal titles, but I don't know how would that mix with the Papal interface, there might be oddities.

- Have there been any anti-bordergore changes to what happens to non-de jure titles on election (excluding the changes made with the exclave rules)? For example, if Harald wins in 1066 but England and Norway split on succession, Cornwall currrently stays with Norway (presumably because that's the primary) despite the fact that it is much closer to England and would look a lot better there.
I don't think so, no.
- How severe is the priority for historical elector titles? For example, if I am an elector as Lotharingia and my vassal (or some random person) creates Trier, will I instantly lose my elector status because that's a historical elector title?

- Is the AI smart enough to not grant historical elector titles to vassals if this would give up the elector position?
They are prioritized quite a bit, so you might be losing your Elector status in that circumstance, yes.
Not particularly.
1.Are all these variabel by gender preferance laws?
Yes, all new succession laws combine with gender laws as usual, and the AI's behavior will take them in consideration amongst other things when picking their preferred candidate.
2. How hard is it to place a prefered candidate on the throne of byzantium as an outsider? Is marrying my ruler to a greek princess and raising our son as intricatre webweaver enough to give him a decent shot in adulthood if the ruling dynasty is weak(end by me)?
It might be feasible, yes, it depends on the state of the ruling dynasty, on potential competitors to the throne, how much the Emperor's Councilors like your preferred heir, etc.
3. Are you planing on dehardcoding merchant republics in the future?
No plan as far as I know.
 

Silfae

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I saw a couple of folks ask this question, and I don't think this was answered already.

If I imprison an elective voter for a valid reason (caught plotting to kill my kid, rebels against me and loses, etc.) will that reduce or eliminate the voting malus other electors would have of me when it comes to selecting the heir? Similarly, if the elector happens to die in my oubliette (without any foul play on my part), will the other electors hate me for it the same as it I executed a kill plot against that elector?

My assumption is that I wouldn't get dinged for an "understandable" response to a treasonous action by a vassal. If not, then that means that your elector vassals might be emboldened to conduct high intrigue actions against you, knowing that any retribution against them would have major repercussions for your rule.
If you are not gaining tyranny and the other electors' opinion of you is not going down, then they are not going to care.
If you are referring to killing/imprisoning Elders, if you have a legitimate reason, the other Elders will not get upset with you.
Would it be possible to mod in a "census elective" succession where only the most wealthy courtiers are electors ?

(For example, the X most wealthy courtiers in the realm, or only the courtiers that have more than X gold in their personal treasury)
Yes, that seems feasible.
Great news!

I have a question: will the HRE created in the Charlemagne start use the Princely elective succession law? It kinda feels wrong in this case, especially considering that the de jure titles that are prioritized as electors might not be under control of the HRE in that case.
The official HRE yes, the pseudo-HRE no.
Do titular titles count for the purposes of being Commanders in the Byzantine Empire? e.g. can the holder of the Varangian Guard be a Commander?
No, a Commander is defined as a character that you have given the title_commander in order to make him lead your armies. You can make the Varangian Guard leader your Commander, sure.
 

IsakMiller

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Can you preemptively duel other strong claimants before the title holder dies?

What about dueling on part of other's claims (wife or son)?

Or using champions to duel for one?

Can incapacitated or sickly characters be challenged to duel?

What about women being challenged to duel?

There are currently no ways to duel on behalf of others, so that's a no.

Incapacitated characters should not end up in duels. Certain levels of injury/sickness might still be allowed, but they come with a scaling opinion penalty (from others in your realm), depending on severity of the health issues of your target.

Worth mentioning might be that we have simplified the game rules surrounding dueling to be "Default" and "Unrestricted" (where before there was also a "Restricted", kind of in-between setting), as we quickly realized that the system is more fun if it lets you be penalized for your behavior, rather than outright blocked from it. Same goes for dueling priests, or female characters, when not appropriate within your religion or culture (female fighters of the Warrior Lodges are fair game, for instance). Of course, your targets can still refuse your challenge. But to break it down, the default setting applies penalties, whereas "Unrestricted" is less concerned with what's an "appropriate" dueling target.

(Edit: Forgot your first question): yes, usually. As long as they are in general valid targets for you to duel, you should be able to pick them off beforehand (not without risk, but sure). :)
 

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I would like to know how will be the impact of the Enatic clans, would fit somehow to the dev dairy will it just be a click while a reform the religion or maybe what will be the consequences of it, right now many events for rulers and descisions are linked to male rulers
There has been some background maintenance to upgrade old basic events to work properly with Enatic, but that is about it, I'm not sure that would warrant an entire Dev Diary. It was mostly about updating already existing events.

Looks really cool, although one thing I'm curious about: Can women take part in Imperial succession?
If for whatever reason a woman qualifies as an elector (wife, special Jean of Arc commander, etc.), she can vote, yes. In order for women to be viable candidates though the realm must have a gender law that allows it (that is, not full agnatic).

On a related note, is there any change to whether Marshals need to be landed in the Byzantine Empire? I'm hoping not to allow for Eunuchs being Marshals (aka the most senior general) and leading troops, along with relatives of Strategoi who didn't themselves hold a command, as happened under various rulers!
There is no change regarding Marshal, but a Eunuch is very unlikely to be supported by anybody and is likely going to have a very low voting power due to his mutilation.

Well, not "the Byzantine characters", just the Basileus.
Other characters in the ERE are still feudal. So that might be a problem if Constantinople happens to no be held by the Basileus anymore.
Yes, no change in Constantinople's baronies' type.
Can I have this answered please?
The Kingdom does not take precendence.
I had considered the possibility of having special circumstances where the main electoral titles can change (such as the one you named, as well as some of the other new special titles creatable by decision within the HRE, such as the Grand Duchy of Austria or the Swiss Confederacy), but would have taken a lot more time as I didn't want the electoral titles to be too malleable in a way that was for the most part outside the player's control.

Shouldn't the new 'Exclave Independence' mechanic do this to some extent? It wouldn't make Cornwall part of England but would certainly reduce the bordergore after-effects.
Yes, it should. I said no since the first post specifically said "excluding the Exclave rule".
 

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Can you clarify these terms more precisely? You've replied to this same question a couple times now, but I still don't understand the answer at all.
What I mean is, if you go into common/realm_decisions.txt, you will find two decisions: form_the_hre and form_the_hre_early. The former will enable Princely Elective automatically, the second will not.
If you are the ruler and using Elder succession, and you are the oldest person in your nation, are you an elder? Or is the ruler ineligible for elder status?

As a side question, how does immortality affect elder succession? Will an immortal vassal always have a say in my successions? Can I be an immortal vassal and always have a say in who my next liege will be? Or are immortals disqualified from being elders?
As the ruler, you still get a vote by default, even if you are not an Elder.
It can happen that an Elder of your dynasty gets elected and you end up playing as him. You are not going to "become" an Elder if you are an independent ruler under Eldership, even if you are extremely old, since you are already the ruler.

And, oh, yes, an Immortal Elder is going to meddle into your elections for as long as he is around.
When Byzantium is shattered in 4th Crusade and you play as succesor state, you switch to feudal right? And when you restore Byzantine Empire it goes back to Imperial succession?
Yes, Imperial Elective is meant to represent the politics of a centralized byzantine Empire with centuries of laws, traditions, etc. so you only get it when you hold one of the two Roman Empire titles.
 

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Silfae

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- Eunuch’s should be penalized when being considered for Emperor, but they were certainly influential in deciding who would be next.
It depends. If the eunuch is competent, has prestige and minor titles, etc., then it would be influential in spite of being a eunuch, but still less influential than a non-eunuch with the same skills/prestige/titles.

If you elect your wife as empress will you somehow get to play as her now?
mhhh
No, unless she's of your dynasty.
 

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- Is it possible to change the number of electors in Princely Elective during the game (with events/etc.)?
There is not. It was one of the improvements I was thinking about. However, I don't know if it would be best to do this via law modifiers or just having a weight_modifier list on the max_amount in the script.

- Is it possible for the number of electors under Princely Elective to be different for different realms?
It would require the improvement above to work. However it's shouldn't be especially taxing on the game to make a bunch of cloned elective rules that only differ by the amount of electors for a hacky workaround.

- Is there a way to scope to the top X candidates (or all candidates with at least one vote) and their supporters post-election (or on_death for the title holder) if we want to do something like e.g. give them the option to instantly start a civil war for the throne?
Good idea! This would likely require some new clever solution for an on_action. I do believe however that the top 3 candidates will be considered pretenders before the succession.

- Is it possible to scale voting power based on manpower/personal levies/retinues/etc. or on demesne size?
It might not end up as the most elegant script and might require some maintenance events but I do believe that there should be the tools necessary to allow this.

- Is it possible to block specific electors from voting in an election (e.g. an imprisoned traitor (or "traitor"))?
Not in a way that wouldn't disqualify you as an elector.

- Would it be possible to do "appointment voting" (for viceroyalties) where the liege and his councillors (and perhaps the holder, since he might try to buy votes) are the electors and the title instantly goes to the chosen successor?
Hmm this is interesting, the electors can only be de jure or de facto below but if it has a grace period where it steps by the liege it might be possible. It will however take up to 6 months before all of the ai-votes to trickle in.

- Given the party realm example, is it possible to script some elections to take place every X years instead of on_death?
I do think this would be very possible with the current_heir title scope, abdicate_to effect and some clever use of on_actions and variables.

- Since it is somewhat similar to Princely Elective, is Papal succession's voting logic moddable?
The Papal succession has it's entire separate logic from the other succession forms. It was not something we had time to look into this time around.

I hope these answers helps to give you an idea about what should be possible.
/edit: Oh, looks like Silfae beat me to the punch on most of the questions. :)
 

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@Silfae Can't we get a game rule for this?

Can other realms (Empires?) than the HRE / ERE / Roman Empire choose to use Princely / Imperial Elective respectivly?

No, they are tied to those titles.

Would be nice to have in other empires as well fullfilling certain requirements...
It is not a simple on/off issue; they would need to be adapted considerably to work for other titles, since their features and the AI elector behavior that was scripted for them was done to try and represent the cultural context of the Empires that used them. For example, it would not make sense for another centralized Empire to reduce voting power of a ruler that is not Born in the Purple.

I noticed that the imperial government type allows you to hold cities without penalty. If you lose the election do the cities go with the new emperor or do you hold onto them? If you hold onto to them and your capital is a barony will you suffer a penalty for continuing to hold those cities? What if your capital is a city, would you become a merchant republic?
The government works in a way similar to the Chinese Imperialism one. If you fail the election, you are going to revert to feudalism and get wrong holding penalties if you still own city holdings directly.

What role does the Despot title play for Byzantine succession? Can it compensate for not being Born in the Purple?
Yes, it gives the same effects to voting power/Elector preference as having the Born in the Purple trait.
 

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In current elective, independent rulers from outside the realm can vote for a successor to their de jure liege. Is this still possible? What about for the HRE?
Yes.
Will electors under Tanistry be way less likely to choose some ancient man with poor statistics and Great Pox over somebody a little younger with Great Stats and Genius now?
Yes, Electors in general making weird choices should no longer be such a common occurrence with the new system.
 

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How possible would it be to mod in a form of Elective with the conditions
-Must be
-Religious head
-Pagan
-Heirocratic Leadership
-Valid Electors and heirs are the Religious Head and same religion priests of that religions holy sites
-Voting preference to Learning, Piety, Diplomacy, and Favorable religious traits
-Upon inheritance abdicate old titles
?
"priests of that religion's holy sites" this condition might be beyond the scopes that a title can reasonably check for when determining its electors. Though the system could allow to make priests within your dejure or defacto realm that own a holy site be electors.
I'm not sure what you mean with "abdicate old titles upon inheritance".
Yes to all the other points, custom Elective based on specific Doctrines with Religious Head as an Elector and AI behavior looking for Learning, Piety, Diplomacy, virtue traits, etc. is definitely possible.
 

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Thank you for your patient answer!
And there is another question:
DqcWyi8UUAEUozS.jpg:large

Is this law still exist?I mean,is there still “Feudal vassal opinion -10”?
Yes.
Can I change the SL of the HRE to Princely Elective if I used the form_the_hre_early Decision?
Yes, Princely Elective replaces Feudal Elective for the HRE, it has otherwise the same requirements.
 

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Do religious heads have a greater voting power in elections, by default? How about Sayyid and Saoshyant Descendant?
Not in any vanilla succession, but it can be easily modded in.