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CK2 Dev Diary #102 - About that one dead religion...


Greetings.

Well, then... Holy Fury will make Hellenism playable.

20180730093248_1.jpg


Now, now, let us be clear: there are not going to be any significant changes in the game’s history. Holy Fury will simply offer a couple of ways for a ruler to revive the religion when meeting some strict requirements.
This is no easy choice to make, of course, as doing so will likely make your character reviled by both vassals and neighbors alike and cause your realm to fall into a crippling civil war, but then again, if the cause is just...

20180730093553_1.jpg


The first opportunity to restore Hellenism will come immediately after restoring the Roman Empire as a Greek or Italian ruler. Your character will receive an event shortly after becoming Emperor where he ponders about reintroducing the old state religion.
20180730093708_1.jpg


Naturally, if you decide to do so, your Abrahamic vassals will assume that you have gone insane (which, I suppose, may very well be the case...) and likely band together in a large revolt to depose you. Be aware that defeat during this civil war could easily result in a game over: if your heir is also a pagan like you, the leader of the rebellious vassals will take over the entire Empire for himself and away from your heathen dynasty.
On the other hand, if you are successful, you will be able to remain in power and some of your less reluctant vassals might decide that embracing Hellenism is not such a ludicrous proposition after all.

20180730094033_1.jpg


While not entirely connected to the Hellenic Restoration, I would also like to talk about a few other additions that have been slipped in the old Roman Empire revival event chain.
First of all, remember how the silly Pope tends to fill Rome with Church holdings, making the city not exactly palatable as a feudal capital? Well, worry no more! For now, after restoring the Empire (and provided that Rome has two or more temple holdings), your ruler will be given the chance to emulate Nero and clean up the place a bit. It might seriously hurt Catholic Moral Authority and the local peasants might get really upset about it, but, at the end of the day, aren’t those empty slots worth it?

20180730094125_1.jpg


A second new little feature you might enjoy is the Roman Renaissance decision, which will become available after ruling the restored Empire for a few years, provided that you have moved the capital to Rome, belong to either Greek or Italian culture and are either Christian or Hellenic. This decision will allow your ruler to reintroduce Roman culture to the Empire. On a practical level, this will allow your realm to become more homogenous, as provinces and rulers belonging to any Latin culture will be very susceptible to switch to the new one and, if you are Hellenic, they will also have a chance to switch both culturally and religiously when embracing the new renaissance. On a roleplaying level, your characters will get swanky new togas to dress in.

Hellenics5.jpg


Now, let us go back to Hellenism proper. As I was saying before, there is a second way for a ruler to restore the dead religion, if conquering all of western Europe is too much of a hassle for you.
If you are a Christian, of either Greek or Italian culture, your capital is located in Southern Europe, you completely control one of the Hellenic Holy Sites (Thessalonika, Athens, Rome, Alexandria or Abydos), and you are interested in scholarly matters, or are insane, you will have access to a new decision: Delve into Classics.
If taken, this decision will allow a character to go through a short event chain during which you might become enamored enough with Hellenic mythology to decide to secretly convert to it and start your own Society of Hellenes. Whatever you wish to do after that in order to spread the religion will be up to you.

This is it for what concerns the means to resurrect Hellenism, but what about the religion itself?
You will be pleased to know that it is no longer an empty husk and has now actual flavor and mechanics to it.

20180730094306_1.jpg


First of all, the religion is no longer pre-reformed: it can make use of the new Pagan Reformation feature just like any other form of paganism (and, as a small aside, you might be happy to know that reforming it as a Greek character will give all the gods their Greek names).
As for how the religion starts, Hellenism is now strictly monogamous (no concubinage), and does not have access to Pagan Subjugation. On the other hand, all Roman and Byzantine events previously restricted to Christians are now also available to Hellenic rulers (chariot races, Imperial Reconquests, etc.). Additionally, Hellenism starts having by default the effects of the Haruspicy and Astrology Doctrines, as well as having access to a new unique mechanic: temple dedication.

As a Hellenic ruler, you will be able to dedicate any temple holding within your realm to one of the twelve main deities of your pantheon. Doing so will give your ruler a temporary boost as well as activate a special building granting a permanent bonus to the holding’s province. These dedicated shrines are permanent, merely becoming inactive when under a ruler of a different religion. The kind of boost that they grant is naturally tied to the god they are being dedicated to.

20180730094406_1.jpg


Finally, Hellenism has been given access to a few societies, though most of them, like the religion, will need to be recreated by a powerful ruler before becoming active.
Aside from having immediate access to Hermetics, Hellenics can now form the Stoics (a Monastic Order), the Bacchants (a Satanist society), and the Olympian Champions (a Warrior Lodge). Aside from their outlook, the Stoics and Bacchants work exactly as their Christian counterparts, with the one exception being that the Rank 4 County Conversion power of the Stoics will convert a province culturally rather than religiously.

Well then, this should cover most of it.


Note: As we are aware that the inclusion of the Hellenic religion might break immersion for some of our players, we have included a Game Rule to go with it. If the rule is turned off, it will disable the Delve into Classics decision and the Hellenic Revival event chain following the Roman Empire’s restoration, removing any chance of the religion reappearing in a regular game (though note that the religion might still spawn in Random World, depending on what settings you use when generating its history).
 

J.B.

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Or you could play imperator.

Maybe I'll get it, eventually. I was really thinking of the Alexander the Great themed expansion title mostly as a way to have more additions for the Middle East, India, Central Asia, and Africa, places that Alexander had traversed with his Hellenic armies.
 

treb

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Great response. But I'm not putting politics into a retinue, as there's no precedent for it. These are standing armies after all, not hired mercs (Varangians).

The question I present is, if you're going for a renewed Greco-Roman Renaissance, why not have an inherit advantage/disadvantage combat balance, considering the realm size and prestige? We know that to create the Roman Empire, or even to succeed as a reformed Hellenistic, will require a ton of resources. I'm down with a retinue that isn't universally over powered. A retinue that is heavy infantry exclusive, but is susceptible to the historic heavy cavalry and skirmish cavalry disadvantage that we saw with the Parthian, Sasanian wars.

Actually reforming Rome can be done in well under 100-150 years in 769 first thing to do in invite the Merovingian convert him to orthodox then land him, then declare a great invasion for Jerusalem, after winning that wait for Charlemagne to inherit karlomans kingdom and get his claim on Lombardy. then press the Merovingian claims and once Charlemagne is a vassal press his claim on Lombardy, from there its sniping duchies at opportune times via holy wars. but by this time you've snowballed so much even the Abbasid's are a pushover.
 

DmUa

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A second new little feature you might enjoy is the Roman Renaissance decision, which will become available after ruling the restored Empire for a few years, provided that you have moved the capital to Rome, belong to either Greek or Italian culture and are either Christian or Hellenic. This decision will allow your ruler to reintroduce Roman culture to the Empire.

First of all, the religion is no longer pre-reformed: it can make use of the new Pagan Reformation feature just like any other form of paganism (and, as a small aside, you might be happy to know that reforming it as a Greek character will give all the gods their Greek names).
- any chances that Greeks will be able re-introduce ancient greek culture? It would be a bit strange to have gods with Greek names yet the whole country will sport Latin names instead. Also could system with God naming be adapted for other pagans?
 

treb

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- any chances that Greeks will be able re-introduce ancient greek culture? It would be a bit strange to have gods with Greek names yet the whole country will sport Latin names instead. Also could system with God naming be adapted for other pagans?

Medieval Greek culture is the Christianized direct descendant of Classical and Ancient Greek culture. Simply don't take the decision.
 

treb

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- medieval Italian culture is direct descendant of Latin roman culture, here are no need for existence of such decision at all!

I can play that game too.
Except its not, Italian isn't even the closest romance language to Latin, Sardinian is
 

J.B.

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- any chances that Greeks will be able re-introduce ancient greek culture? It would be a bit strange to have gods with Greek names yet the whole country will sport Latin names instead. Also could system with God naming be adapted for other pagans?

The Greeks have Greek names already, and many of them are the same as names that occurred during ancient times. However, maybe a Pagan Greek realm should have Christian Greek names bypassed/filtered out for Pagan characters, if that is possible, without having to create another Greek culture.
 

TheDungen

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The point is you can't just roll history back, these things have happened and the cultural impacts of them have happened. Roman is meant as a attempt to reconstruct roman culture.
 

treb

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The point is you can't just roll history back, these things have happened and the cultural impacts of them have happened. Roman is meant as a attempt to reconstruct roman culture.

Another point to add is Latin was essentially two separate languages by the time of its extinction as a vernacular, there was standardized and written late classical Latin that went on to become the liturgical language of the west and the nonstandard vulgar Latin spoken by the commoners that eventually became the romance languages
 

Telenil

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Me ten minutes ago: "Let's see the next diary about this expansion I may or may not buy."
Me now: "To the pre-order page! Roma Invicta!"
 

DmUa

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Except its not, Italian isn't even the closest romance language to Latin, Sardinian is
- 1. sardinia is italian cultured ingame.
2. medieval greek is different from ancient greek. So?
3. you want to say that italian language isn't latin?

What do you even mean? Why are you even arguing in a thread about resurrecting dead religions and dead cultures?

The Greeks have Greek names already, and many of them are the same as names that occurred during ancient times. However, maybe a Pagan Greek realm should have Christian Greek names bypassed/filtered out for Pagan characters, if that is possible, without having to create another Greek culture.
- the greeks have names contaminated by christianity and romans, also alot of names form ancient Greece are missing. By that logic here are no need to resurrect roman culture because some of cultures are already using roman names. Not to mention that here are no need to have mechanic that allows to have greek named gods to hellenic religion. Because who cares, you will be resurrecting roman culture anyway.
 

TheDungen

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Another point to add is Latin was essentially two separate languages by the time of its extinction as a vernacular, there was standardized and written late classical Latin that went on to become the liturgical language of the west and the nonstandard vulgar Latin spoken by the commoners that eventually became the romance languages
I wouldn't say vulgar latin was a language but rather several, and yes each form of vulgar latin eventually became a romance language.
Hence when I did my modded roman renaissance I did it as a melting pot I placed roman in the greek culture group and then had all latin cultures under the empire of rome gradually flip to roman. Not signifying a revival so much as as a standardisation and unification of the latin cultures in the empire.
 

Serenity84

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Way too many people expect that reforming means that you simply go back to the old ways as if nothing has changed. As if the hundreds of years of development and change since then didn't happen. That people will just go back to worshiping the old gods as in the past. That culturally people will suddenly behave like stereotypical Romans. Or that Roman legions will fight the same way as if warfare hasn't changed at all. That's not how this works

Sure they can go back and take on some ancient Roman influences, but you can't erase what happened since then. Anything Roman will be grafted on top of what already exists.
That also goes for something like temples. Maybe some churches will be burned down, but people could also leave the buildings standing and redecorate them. Instead of recreating ancient temples.
 

TheDungen

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Way too many people expect that reforming means that you simply go back to the old ways as if nothing has changed. As if the hundreds of years of development and change since then didn't happen. That people will just go back to worshiping the old gods as in the past. That culturally people will suddenly behave like stereotypical Romans. Or that Roman legions will fight the same way as if warfare hasn't changed at all. That's not how this works
Unfortunately it sort of has to, because one of the reasons they are adding this to the game is to work with the converter from imperator. And that would represent a continuous roman or greek culture or religion from antiquity to the medieval time, but it also has to represent the resurgence of these things after centuries of being gone. These two things are hard to accomplish at the same time.
 

Slayen

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Unfortunately it sort of has to, because one of the reasons they are adding this to the game is to work with the converter from imperator.
Hold up now, do you actually have a source for that, or is this just speculation? Cause the idea of even having a converter for I:R-to-CK2 seems a bit far fetched give the number of centuries one would have to skip over.
 

Gurkhal

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My guess for why Roman is added is that Paradox have done a ton of research on ancient Rome for Imperator and rather than letting all that research be used soley for Imperator they decided to add this part, based on said research, to CK2 as well.

But this is just my speculation.
 

JosunUrashima

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So a question to @Silfae in relation to this, since aside from this there's really only one other area you could touch on that would make me (beyond the current state) already absolutely and positively get this game...


And that is, are the Aztecs and their faith getting any updates? Will the Aztecs perhaps be getting something akin to the Chinese Emperor mechanics?
 

Keizer Harm

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Unfortunately it sort of has to, because one of the reasons they are adding this to the game is to work with the converter from imperator.
[Citation Needed]
 

TheDungen

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Hold up now, do you actually have a source for that, or is this just speculation? Cause the idea of even having a converter for I:R-to-CK2 seems a bit far fetched give the number of centuries one would have to skip over.
I admit it's mere speculation, but at some point they will close that gap and will want a converter, unless they abandon the converters going forward.


My guess for why Roman is added is that Paradox have done a ton of research on ancient Rome for Imperator and rather than letting all that research be used soley for Imperator they decided to add this part, based on said research, to CK2 as well.

But this is just my speculation.
You could be right.

So a question to @Silfae in relation to this, since aside from this there's really only one other area you could touch on that would make me (beyond the current state) already absolutely and positively get this game...


And that is, are the Aztecs and their faith getting any updates? Will the Aztecs perhaps be getting something akin to the Chinese Emperor mechanics?
I'd love to see sunset invasion getting revisisted but I doubt it.