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CK2 Dev Diary #102 - About that one dead religion...


Greetings.

Well, then... Holy Fury will make Hellenism playable.

20180730093248_1.jpg


Now, now, let us be clear: there are not going to be any significant changes in the game’s history. Holy Fury will simply offer a couple of ways for a ruler to revive the religion when meeting some strict requirements.
This is no easy choice to make, of course, as doing so will likely make your character reviled by both vassals and neighbors alike and cause your realm to fall into a crippling civil war, but then again, if the cause is just...

20180730093553_1.jpg


The first opportunity to restore Hellenism will come immediately after restoring the Roman Empire as a Greek or Italian ruler. Your character will receive an event shortly after becoming Emperor where he ponders about reintroducing the old state religion.
20180730093708_1.jpg


Naturally, if you decide to do so, your Abrahamic vassals will assume that you have gone insane (which, I suppose, may very well be the case...) and likely band together in a large revolt to depose you. Be aware that defeat during this civil war could easily result in a game over: if your heir is also a pagan like you, the leader of the rebellious vassals will take over the entire Empire for himself and away from your heathen dynasty.
On the other hand, if you are successful, you will be able to remain in power and some of your less reluctant vassals might decide that embracing Hellenism is not such a ludicrous proposition after all.

20180730094033_1.jpg


While not entirely connected to the Hellenic Restoration, I would also like to talk about a few other additions that have been slipped in the old Roman Empire revival event chain.
First of all, remember how the silly Pope tends to fill Rome with Church holdings, making the city not exactly palatable as a feudal capital? Well, worry no more! For now, after restoring the Empire (and provided that Rome has two or more temple holdings), your ruler will be given the chance to emulate Nero and clean up the place a bit. It might seriously hurt Catholic Moral Authority and the local peasants might get really upset about it, but, at the end of the day, aren’t those empty slots worth it?

20180730094125_1.jpg


A second new little feature you might enjoy is the Roman Renaissance decision, which will become available after ruling the restored Empire for a few years, provided that you have moved the capital to Rome, belong to either Greek or Italian culture and are either Christian or Hellenic. This decision will allow your ruler to reintroduce Roman culture to the Empire. On a practical level, this will allow your realm to become more homogenous, as provinces and rulers belonging to any Latin culture will be very susceptible to switch to the new one and, if you are Hellenic, they will also have a chance to switch both culturally and religiously when embracing the new renaissance. On a roleplaying level, your characters will get swanky new togas to dress in.

Hellenics5.jpg


Now, let us go back to Hellenism proper. As I was saying before, there is a second way for a ruler to restore the dead religion, if conquering all of western Europe is too much of a hassle for you.
If you are a Christian, of either Greek or Italian culture, your capital is located in Southern Europe, you completely control one of the Hellenic Holy Sites (Thessalonika, Athens, Rome, Alexandria or Abydos), and you are interested in scholarly matters, or are insane, you will have access to a new decision: Delve into Classics.
If taken, this decision will allow a character to go through a short event chain during which you might become enamored enough with Hellenic mythology to decide to secretly convert to it and start your own Society of Hellenes. Whatever you wish to do after that in order to spread the religion will be up to you.

This is it for what concerns the means to resurrect Hellenism, but what about the religion itself?
You will be pleased to know that it is no longer an empty husk and has now actual flavor and mechanics to it.

20180730094306_1.jpg


First of all, the religion is no longer pre-reformed: it can make use of the new Pagan Reformation feature just like any other form of paganism (and, as a small aside, you might be happy to know that reforming it as a Greek character will give all the gods their Greek names).
As for how the religion starts, Hellenism is now strictly monogamous (no concubinage), and does not have access to Pagan Subjugation. On the other hand, all Roman and Byzantine events previously restricted to Christians are now also available to Hellenic rulers (chariot races, Imperial Reconquests, etc.). Additionally, Hellenism starts having by default the effects of the Haruspicy and Astrology Doctrines, as well as having access to a new unique mechanic: temple dedication.

As a Hellenic ruler, you will be able to dedicate any temple holding within your realm to one of the twelve main deities of your pantheon. Doing so will give your ruler a temporary boost as well as activate a special building granting a permanent bonus to the holding’s province. These dedicated shrines are permanent, merely becoming inactive when under a ruler of a different religion. The kind of boost that they grant is naturally tied to the god they are being dedicated to.

20180730094406_1.jpg


Finally, Hellenism has been given access to a few societies, though most of them, like the religion, will need to be recreated by a powerful ruler before becoming active.
Aside from having immediate access to Hermetics, Hellenics can now form the Stoics (a Monastic Order), the Bacchants (a Satanist society), and the Olympian Champions (a Warrior Lodge). Aside from their outlook, the Stoics and Bacchants work exactly as their Christian counterparts, with the one exception being that the Rank 4 County Conversion power of the Stoics will convert a province culturally rather than religiously.

Well then, this should cover most of it.


Note: As we are aware that the inclusion of the Hellenic religion might break immersion for some of our players, we have included a Game Rule to go with it. If the rule is turned off, it will disable the Delve into Classics decision and the Hellenic Revival event chain following the Roman Empire’s restoration, removing any chance of the religion reappearing in a regular game (though note that the religion might still spawn in Random World, depending on what settings you use when generating its history).
 

killerbee256

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According to Dutch author and neopagan Freyja Asswyn the oldest Germanic names for gods, possibly from before the Migration Period are: Wodanaz (Odin) Thunraz (Thor) Teiwaz (Tyr) Ingwaz (Yngvi/Frey) and Frjjo (Frigg and possibly Freya) so it's likely that some version of them was known among most/all pagan German tribes.
Those seems to be based on linguistic reconstitution, as that final az was dropped in every daughter language. I'd say those versions were out of use long before the migration period.
 

Orphalesion

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Those seems to be based on linguistic reconstitution, as that final az was dropped in every daughter language. I'd say those versions were out of use long before the migration period.
Frijjo definitely is a reconstruction as far as I know. Not sure about all the others but I think at least Teiwaz, and possibly Ingwaz are more than just reconstructions.

Do you know if there's any meet to Aswynn's claim that Tyr/Teiwaz was originally the chief god among many/most tribes?
 

killerbee256

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Frijjo definitely is a reconstruction as far as I know. Not sure about all the others but I think at least Teiwaz, and possibly Ingwaz are more than just reconstructions.

Do you know if there's any meet to Aswynn's claim that Tyr/Teiwaz was originally the chief god among many/most tribes?
Anything with the -az pre dates the attestion of Gothic, which is the earliest attested Germaic language. Take a look here the Gothic form is the only one that retains the -az as -s. I've been getting into Germanic etymology for my mod. I'm looking forward to adding gothic places names for Germany, England etc.
 
Last edited:

Orphalesion

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Anything with the -az pre dates the attestion of Gothic, which is the earliest attested Germaic language. Take a look here the Gothic form is the only one that retains the -az as -s. I've been getting into Germanic etymology for my mod. I'm looking forward to adding gothic places names for Germany, England etc.

Well, looking forward to that mod.
 

Woifee

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I was wrong when I wrote hellenism will never come. Im happy to be wrong. I most likely will never play one but I’m happy for those who will.
Was new Greco-Roman holding art confirmed?

And why does the legion retinue have pikes?

Because Pila and Gladii are out of date at this time.
 

Sam_Stone

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I was wrong when I wrote hellenism will never come. Im happy to be wrong. I most likely will never play one but I’m happy for those who will.


Because Pila and Gladii are out of date at this time.
True, but a better question would be why the Roman cultural building only gives a bonus to the amount of pikemen available when the retinue has pikemen and heavy infantry in it.
 

eva3071

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True, but a better question would be why the Roman cultural building only gives a bonus to the amount of pikemen available when the retinue has pikemen and heavy infantry in it.

They are likely taking it after the pre-Marian legions rather than the post-marian legions. In the pre-marian legions, the first two lines of the legion, the Hastati and the Princepes were heavy infantry while the Triarii were lancers.
 

Sam_Stone

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They are likely taking it after the pre-Marian legions rather than the post-marian legions. In the pre-marian legions, the first two lines of the legion, the Hastati and the Princepes were heavy infantry while the Triarii were lancers.
This could be the case, yeah, but that doesn't answer why the building only gives pikemen though.
 

Fenrir44

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1 will there be a Celtic and Ancient Egyptian religion revival would love that for the Welsh/Irish/scotts and Egyptian cultures

2 will there be holy orders for you to hire like the Myrmidons and praetorian guard

3 will the titels change to Imperator/Imperatrix and Rex/Regina
 

aono

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Give me that old-time religion,
Give me that old-time religion
Give me that old-time religion
It's good enough for me!
...
...or not. What about pre-Schism Christianity?
 

Luciano78

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Greetings.

Well, then... Holy Fury will make Hellenism playable.

View attachment 407046

Now, now, let us be clear: there are not going to be any significant changes in the game’s history. Holy Fury will simply offer a couple of ways for a ruler to revive the religion when meeting some strict requirements.
This is no easy choice to make, of course, as doing so will likely make your character reviled by both vassals and neighbors alike and cause your realm to fall into a crippling civil war, but then again, if the cause is just...

View attachment 407048

The first opportunity to restore Hellenism will come immediately after restoring the Roman Empire as a Greek or Italian ruler. Your character will receive an event shortly after becoming Emperor where he ponders about reintroducing the old state religion.
View attachment 407049

Naturally, if you decide to do so, your Abrahamic vassals will assume that you have gone insane (which, I suppose, may very well be the case...) and likely band together in a large revolt to depose you. Be aware that defeat during this civil war could easily result in a game over: if your heir is also a pagan like you, the leader of the rebellious vassals will take over the entire Empire for himself and away from your heathen dynasty.
On the other hand, if you are successful, you will be able to remain in power and some of your less reluctant vassals might decide that embracing Hellenism is not such a ludicrous proposition after all.

View attachment 407050

While not entirely connected to the Hellenic Restoration, I would also like to talk about a few other additions that have been slipped in the old Roman Empire revival event chain.
First of all, remember how the silly Pope tends to fill Rome with Church holdings, making the city not exactly palatable as a feudal capital? Well, worry no more! For now, after restoring the Empire (and provided that Rome has two or more temple holdings), your ruler will be given the chance to emulate Nero and clean up the place a bit. It might seriously hurt Catholic Moral Authority and the local peasants might get really upset about it, but, at the end of the day, aren’t those empty slots worth it?

View attachment 407051

A second new little feature you might enjoy is the Roman Renaissance decision, which will become available after ruling the restored Empire for a few years, provided that you have moved the capital to Rome, belong to either Greek or Italian culture and are either Christian or Hellenic. This decision will allow your ruler to reintroduce Roman culture to the Empire. On a practical level, this will allow your realm to become more homogenous, as provinces and rulers belonging to any Latin culture will be very susceptible to switch to the new one and, if you are Hellenic, they will also have a chance to switch both culturally and religiously when embracing the new renaissance. On a roleplaying level, your characters will get swanky new togas to dress in.

View attachment 407052

Now, let us go back to Hellenism proper. As I was saying before, there is a second way for a ruler to restore the dead religion, if conquering all of western Europe is too much of a hassle for you.
If you are a Christian, of either Greek or Italian culture, your capital is located in Southern Europe, you completely control one of the Hellenic Holy Sites (Thessalonika, Athens, Rome, Alexandria or Abydos), and you are interested in scholarly matters, or are insane, you will have access to a new decision: Delve into Classics.
If taken, this decision will allow a character to go through a short event chain during which you might become enamored enough with Hellenic mythology to decide to secretly convert to it and start your own Society of Hellenes. Whatever you wish to do after that in order to spread the religion will be up to you.

This is it for what concerns the means to resurrect Hellenism, but what about the religion itself?
You will be pleased to know that it is no longer an empty husk and has now actual flavor and mechanics to it.

View attachment 407053

First of all, the religion is no longer pre-reformed: it can make use of the new Pagan Reformation feature just like any other form of paganism (and, as a small aside, you might be happy to know that reforming it as a Greek character will give all the gods their Greek names).
As for how the religion starts, Hellenism is now strictly monogamous (no concubinage), and does not have access to Pagan Subjugation. On the other hand, all Roman and Byzantine events previously restricted to Christians are now also available to Hellenic rulers (chariot races, Imperial Reconquests, etc.). Additionally, Hellenism starts having by default the effects of the Haruspicy and Astrology Doctrines, as well as having access to a new unique mechanic: temple dedication.

As a Hellenic ruler, you will be able to dedicate any temple holding within your realm to one of the twelve main deities of your pantheon. Doing so will give your ruler a temporary boost as well as activate a special building granting a permanent bonus to the holding’s province. These dedicated shrines are permanent, merely becoming inactive when under a ruler of a different religion. The kind of boost that they grant is naturally tied to the god they are being dedicated to.

View attachment 407054

Finally, Hellenism has been given access to a few societies, though most of them, like the religion, will need to be recreated by a powerful ruler before becoming active.
Aside from having immediate access to Hermetics, Hellenics can now form the Stoics (a Monastic Order), the Bacchants (a Satanist society), and the Olympian Champions (a Warrior Lodge). Aside from their outlook, the Stoics and Bacchants work exactly as their Christian counterparts, with the one exception being that the Rank 4 County Conversion power of the Stoics will convert a province culturally rather than religiously.

Well then, this should cover most of it.


Note: As we are aware that the inclusion of the Hellenic religion might break immersion for some of our players, we have included a Game Rule to go with it. If the rule is turned off, it will disable the Delve into Classics decision and the Hellenic Revival event chain following the Roman Empire’s restoration, removing any chance of the religion reappearing in a regular game (though note that the religion might still spawn in Random World, depending on what settings you use when generating its history).
I just can't wait for holy fury to arrive.
 

Maximus Light

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I actually do have another, more serious question now: Why Hellenism with the Greek Pantheon and not the Roman Pantheon?
I can see why Hellenism with the Greek Pantheon would be far more interesting to put in and it is certainly close enough to make the Roman Pantheon if not a fully different religion than at least a heresy of Hellenism, plus better or more wide spread cultural resources to draw on than Roman sources.
That said I feel like given how history worked out in the long run Hellenism would have gone from the Greek Pantheon mainstream to being supplanted by Roman Pantheon heresy in CK2 game terms.
So yeah, out of curiosity, what's the reasoning for that?
 

aono

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Only if they have a mechanic to show how far the split already is. They were NOT a united religion, even in the 780s.
I'm afraid concept of "united religion" is... quite not-defined before modern media. At least, they accept same councils until 869.

I actually do have another, more serious question now: Why Hellenism with the Greek Pantheon and not the Roman Pantheon?
The funny thing last time I looked Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune or Pluto wasn't Greek. And it's strange enough to see Jupiter, Neptune and Pluto be called as Kronids.
 

thevmag

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I actually do have another, more serious question now: Why Hellenism with the Greek Pantheon and not the Roman Pantheon?
Like I said, the gods' names will change depending on the culture of the Reformer. By default they use the Latin ones, but if you are Greek and Reform Hellenism, they'll switch back to the Greek versions.
 

aono

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Roman Pantheon isn't Olympian Twelve with different names and haircuts.
 

Federalist girl

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Athena had a lot more clout than Minerva ever had, maybe Athena if greek and Juno if Roman.

Um. Minerva was one of the Capitoline Triad. She was extremely significant to the Romans. She was one of the old Etruscan deities.

One of the annoying aspects of the recent Rick Riordan kids' books on the subject (a series that I quite enjoy!) is the false conception that the Romans didn't care for Minerva and relegated her to weaving. That's not correct.

True! Athena was one of those deities that was too complex for Rome and ended up being equated with two of their native deities: Minerva and Bellona.

I wouldn't stay that was because she was too complex any more than I would say Ares was too complex for Rome just because Mars started as an agricultural deity and was dissimilar. Minerva had already taken on aspects of Greek Athena back in the Etruscan days. And she did have a war aspect to her -- one that grew increasingly more prominent as the Italic aspects of Minerva started getting blended with more Hellenized aspects of Athena. You'd see Minerva on generals' sword hilts and on particularly martial themed plates and dinnerware starting in the late Republic going into the Imperial period.

Bellona was just more fundamentally a war goddess but in a different sense entirely than Athena was to the Greeks. She was more equated with Enyo anyway, but Enyo had a different role in Greek cult practices than Bellona did to the Italics.