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CK2 Dev Diary #102 - About that one dead religion...


Greetings.

Well, then... Holy Fury will make Hellenism playable.

20180730093248_1.jpg


Now, now, let us be clear: there are not going to be any significant changes in the game’s history. Holy Fury will simply offer a couple of ways for a ruler to revive the religion when meeting some strict requirements.
This is no easy choice to make, of course, as doing so will likely make your character reviled by both vassals and neighbors alike and cause your realm to fall into a crippling civil war, but then again, if the cause is just...

20180730093553_1.jpg


The first opportunity to restore Hellenism will come immediately after restoring the Roman Empire as a Greek or Italian ruler. Your character will receive an event shortly after becoming Emperor where he ponders about reintroducing the old state religion.
20180730093708_1.jpg


Naturally, if you decide to do so, your Abrahamic vassals will assume that you have gone insane (which, I suppose, may very well be the case...) and likely band together in a large revolt to depose you. Be aware that defeat during this civil war could easily result in a game over: if your heir is also a pagan like you, the leader of the rebellious vassals will take over the entire Empire for himself and away from your heathen dynasty.
On the other hand, if you are successful, you will be able to remain in power and some of your less reluctant vassals might decide that embracing Hellenism is not such a ludicrous proposition after all.

20180730094033_1.jpg


While not entirely connected to the Hellenic Restoration, I would also like to talk about a few other additions that have been slipped in the old Roman Empire revival event chain.
First of all, remember how the silly Pope tends to fill Rome with Church holdings, making the city not exactly palatable as a feudal capital? Well, worry no more! For now, after restoring the Empire (and provided that Rome has two or more temple holdings), your ruler will be given the chance to emulate Nero and clean up the place a bit. It might seriously hurt Catholic Moral Authority and the local peasants might get really upset about it, but, at the end of the day, aren’t those empty slots worth it?

20180730094125_1.jpg


A second new little feature you might enjoy is the Roman Renaissance decision, which will become available after ruling the restored Empire for a few years, provided that you have moved the capital to Rome, belong to either Greek or Italian culture and are either Christian or Hellenic. This decision will allow your ruler to reintroduce Roman culture to the Empire. On a practical level, this will allow your realm to become more homogenous, as provinces and rulers belonging to any Latin culture will be very susceptible to switch to the new one and, if you are Hellenic, they will also have a chance to switch both culturally and religiously when embracing the new renaissance. On a roleplaying level, your characters will get swanky new togas to dress in.

Hellenics5.jpg


Now, let us go back to Hellenism proper. As I was saying before, there is a second way for a ruler to restore the dead religion, if conquering all of western Europe is too much of a hassle for you.
If you are a Christian, of either Greek or Italian culture, your capital is located in Southern Europe, you completely control one of the Hellenic Holy Sites (Thessalonika, Athens, Rome, Alexandria or Abydos), and you are interested in scholarly matters, or are insane, you will have access to a new decision: Delve into Classics.
If taken, this decision will allow a character to go through a short event chain during which you might become enamored enough with Hellenic mythology to decide to secretly convert to it and start your own Society of Hellenes. Whatever you wish to do after that in order to spread the religion will be up to you.

This is it for what concerns the means to resurrect Hellenism, but what about the religion itself?
You will be pleased to know that it is no longer an empty husk and has now actual flavor and mechanics to it.

20180730094306_1.jpg


First of all, the religion is no longer pre-reformed: it can make use of the new Pagan Reformation feature just like any other form of paganism (and, as a small aside, you might be happy to know that reforming it as a Greek character will give all the gods their Greek names).
As for how the religion starts, Hellenism is now strictly monogamous (no concubinage), and does not have access to Pagan Subjugation. On the other hand, all Roman and Byzantine events previously restricted to Christians are now also available to Hellenic rulers (chariot races, Imperial Reconquests, etc.). Additionally, Hellenism starts having by default the effects of the Haruspicy and Astrology Doctrines, as well as having access to a new unique mechanic: temple dedication.

As a Hellenic ruler, you will be able to dedicate any temple holding within your realm to one of the twelve main deities of your pantheon. Doing so will give your ruler a temporary boost as well as activate a special building granting a permanent bonus to the holding’s province. These dedicated shrines are permanent, merely becoming inactive when under a ruler of a different religion. The kind of boost that they grant is naturally tied to the god they are being dedicated to.

20180730094406_1.jpg


Finally, Hellenism has been given access to a few societies, though most of them, like the religion, will need to be recreated by a powerful ruler before becoming active.
Aside from having immediate access to Hermetics, Hellenics can now form the Stoics (a Monastic Order), the Bacchants (a Satanist society), and the Olympian Champions (a Warrior Lodge). Aside from their outlook, the Stoics and Bacchants work exactly as their Christian counterparts, with the one exception being that the Rank 4 County Conversion power of the Stoics will convert a province culturally rather than religiously.

Well then, this should cover most of it.


Note: As we are aware that the inclusion of the Hellenic religion might break immersion for some of our players, we have included a Game Rule to go with it. If the rule is turned off, it will disable the Delve into Classics decision and the Hellenic Revival event chain following the Roman Empire’s restoration, removing any chance of the religion reappearing in a regular game (though note that the religion might still spawn in Random World, depending on what settings you use when generating its history).
 

Silfae

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What if your a Lollard or Waldensian burning down the holy see?
Any non-Catholic Emperor can get that event.
 

Al Davoodi

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Would be cool if there were localized deity names for Coptic culture Hellenics as well.

And maybe tolerance of the homosexual trait although that’s a bit more of a stretch (plenty of anti-homo pagans around back then)

Anyway looks great and I totally wasn’t expecting it.

yeah i asked about that in another thread cause with that tempel you could add to a god or godess, one practise i asked about was quite comman back then for Aphrodite and Venus temples and worship.
 

Bobleb

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A second new little feature you might enjoy is the Roman Renaissance decision, which will become available after ruling the restored Empire for a few years, provided that you have moved the capital to Rome, belong to either Greek or Italian culture and are either Christian or Hellenic. This decision will allow your ruler to reintroduce Roman culture to the Empire.

Could you add a decision of some sort to build bonus walls to Rome? As it stands, even if you replace all the churches with castles, Constantinople is still a better capitol because of the Theodosian Land Walls.

Could you also buff Roman culture? As it stands, there is basically no reason to be Roman instead of Italian. Italian culture is currently better because of the Pikemen Retinue units, could Roman get a competitive Legion retinue unit? Pic related is Scottish pikemen, but the same results tend to hold true for Italian pikemen.
 

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PAnZuRiEL

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Haruspicy, Astrology and Dedicated Temple are unique Hellenic flavor, they are never lost on Reformation.
This is very interesting. What unique flavours do the other pagan religions have that they can never lose in reformation? Do they all get two free doctrines plus change, or is Hellenic just outright better than the others?
 

neutrondecay

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Would be cool if there were localized deity names for Coptic culture Hellenics as well.

And maybe tolerance of the homosexual trait although that’s a bit more of a stretch (plenty of anti-homo pagans around back then)

Anyway looks great and I totally wasn’t expecting it.
I was dreaming that an Hellenic ruler who held Rome could have the option of repealing the law (I think it was called the Lex Scantina) which some late Republican Roman jurists believed prevented same-sex marriage. In any case, Nero tried to have such a marriage anyway (at least according to some of his biographers), and Hadrian had his lover Antinous deified. (You can bet that if Hellenic sainthood is deification, I'm adding Antinous to the history files as an established Hellenic minor deity.)

nd
 

scorch2

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@Silfae The DD mentions you can get events to become Hellenic if you are Greek, Italian, your capital is in Southern Europe and you control one of the Hellenic Holy Sites.

Does this mean that I cannot become Hellenic if I play as a character in England with English culture for example, or by playing as an Englishmen landed in Sicily for example?

Can I become a follower of Hellenism if I own one of the Holy Sites even though I may be of non-Greek/Italian culture and my capital is in Greenland for example?

Thanks.
 

treb

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Any non-Catholic Emperor can get that event.

Sorry to ask a 3rd time but will other cultures have Hellenic localization's like Coptics using Greco-Egyptian names or Persians referring to Zeus as Zeus Ahura Mazda?
 

Aaron_S

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Your assumption is that college of cardinal mechanics will be coming to pagan they said they won't be. I do think there will be special names of some sort for the various Pagan popes but we don't know that yet.

Not what i assumed at all. To clear it up, I refered to College of Cardinals + High Priest as Papacy, because its different to just a High Priest + unknown offscreen election. And just a High Priest with no way to even know how he is chosen is not compareable to the Papacy. So my question still stands to the Devs.
 

Silfae

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@Silfae The DD mentions you can get events to become Hellenic if you are Greek, Italian, your capital is in Southern Europe and you control one of the Hellenic Holy Sites.

Does this mean that I cannot become Hellenic if I play as a character in England with English culture for example, or by playing as an Englishmen landed in Sicily for example?

Can I become a follower of Hellenism if I own one of the Holy Sites even though I may be of non-Greek/Italian culture and my capital is in Greenland for example?

Thanks.
Yes, those are the restriction. To use the Delve into Classics decision you must be a Christian Greek/Italian, have your capital in Southern Europe, control one of the Hellenic holy sites, and either be a scholar or insane.
As an English ruler a character would not have the ties and access required to be inspired to convert.

Sorry to ask a 3rd time but will other cultures have Hellenic localization's like Coptics using Greco-Egyptian names or Persians referring to Zeus as Zeus Ahura Mazda?
No relocalization for Coptics, sorry.
 

Giovanni1976

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Please, make a spin-off more greek-religion that could be used for my Alexander the Great campaign's roleplaying purposes
that would be really useful, maybe have an ancient greek culture too

Roman rite/Greek rite
 

Orphalesion

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Well my question was already answered; I'm looking forward to burning down the Holy See once my Pagan empire conquers Rome :)

And well, this is really the best, and quite possibly only acceptable, way to revive Hellenism in the CK2 timeline. It's still pretty unlikely/fantasy-like, but well, all the Pagan Reforms are, and imho a little optional fantasy/whimsy don't hurt nobody.

Now I finally have a reason to restore the Roman Empire.

Only question left @Silfae, will it be possible to mod temple dedication for the other Pagans? Like could I mod a custom Doctrine into the game that lets me dedicate temples as a Norse or Slavic Pagan?
 

treb

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Please, make a spin-off more greek-religion that could be used for my Alexander the Great campaign's roleplaying purposes
that would be really useful, maybe have an ancient greek culture too

Roman rite/Greek rite
If your Greek they get localized to the Greek names
 

riadach

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Yes, those are the restriction. To use the Delve into Classics decision you must be a Christian Greek/Italian, have your capital in Southern Europe, control one of the Hellenic holy sites, and either be a scholar or insane.
As an English ruler a character would not have the ties and access required to be inspired to convert.
Let's say you were a Christian Pict/Irishman/Scotsman/Welshman with a scholarship focus or insane, any chance you'd pay peculiar attention to those barrows and megalithic monuments dotted around your country?