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CK2 Dev Diary #102 - About that one dead religion...


Greetings.

Well, then... Holy Fury will make Hellenism playable.

20180730093248_1.jpg


Now, now, let us be clear: there are not going to be any significant changes in the game’s history. Holy Fury will simply offer a couple of ways for a ruler to revive the religion when meeting some strict requirements.
This is no easy choice to make, of course, as doing so will likely make your character reviled by both vassals and neighbors alike and cause your realm to fall into a crippling civil war, but then again, if the cause is just...

20180730093553_1.jpg


The first opportunity to restore Hellenism will come immediately after restoring the Roman Empire as a Greek or Italian ruler. Your character will receive an event shortly after becoming Emperor where he ponders about reintroducing the old state religion.
20180730093708_1.jpg


Naturally, if you decide to do so, your Abrahamic vassals will assume that you have gone insane (which, I suppose, may very well be the case...) and likely band together in a large revolt to depose you. Be aware that defeat during this civil war could easily result in a game over: if your heir is also a pagan like you, the leader of the rebellious vassals will take over the entire Empire for himself and away from your heathen dynasty.
On the other hand, if you are successful, you will be able to remain in power and some of your less reluctant vassals might decide that embracing Hellenism is not such a ludicrous proposition after all.

20180730094033_1.jpg


While not entirely connected to the Hellenic Restoration, I would also like to talk about a few other additions that have been slipped in the old Roman Empire revival event chain.
First of all, remember how the silly Pope tends to fill Rome with Church holdings, making the city not exactly palatable as a feudal capital? Well, worry no more! For now, after restoring the Empire (and provided that Rome has two or more temple holdings), your ruler will be given the chance to emulate Nero and clean up the place a bit. It might seriously hurt Catholic Moral Authority and the local peasants might get really upset about it, but, at the end of the day, aren’t those empty slots worth it?

20180730094125_1.jpg


A second new little feature you might enjoy is the Roman Renaissance decision, which will become available after ruling the restored Empire for a few years, provided that you have moved the capital to Rome, belong to either Greek or Italian culture and are either Christian or Hellenic. This decision will allow your ruler to reintroduce Roman culture to the Empire. On a practical level, this will allow your realm to become more homogenous, as provinces and rulers belonging to any Latin culture will be very susceptible to switch to the new one and, if you are Hellenic, they will also have a chance to switch both culturally and religiously when embracing the new renaissance. On a roleplaying level, your characters will get swanky new togas to dress in.

Hellenics5.jpg


Now, let us go back to Hellenism proper. As I was saying before, there is a second way for a ruler to restore the dead religion, if conquering all of western Europe is too much of a hassle for you.
If you are a Christian, of either Greek or Italian culture, your capital is located in Southern Europe, you completely control one of the Hellenic Holy Sites (Thessalonika, Athens, Rome, Alexandria or Abydos), and you are interested in scholarly matters, or are insane, you will have access to a new decision: Delve into Classics.
If taken, this decision will allow a character to go through a short event chain during which you might become enamored enough with Hellenic mythology to decide to secretly convert to it and start your own Society of Hellenes. Whatever you wish to do after that in order to spread the religion will be up to you.

This is it for what concerns the means to resurrect Hellenism, but what about the religion itself?
You will be pleased to know that it is no longer an empty husk and has now actual flavor and mechanics to it.

20180730094306_1.jpg


First of all, the religion is no longer pre-reformed: it can make use of the new Pagan Reformation feature just like any other form of paganism (and, as a small aside, you might be happy to know that reforming it as a Greek character will give all the gods their Greek names).
As for how the religion starts, Hellenism is now strictly monogamous (no concubinage), and does not have access to Pagan Subjugation. On the other hand, all Roman and Byzantine events previously restricted to Christians are now also available to Hellenic rulers (chariot races, Imperial Reconquests, etc.). Additionally, Hellenism starts having by default the effects of the Haruspicy and Astrology Doctrines, as well as having access to a new unique mechanic: temple dedication.

As a Hellenic ruler, you will be able to dedicate any temple holding within your realm to one of the twelve main deities of your pantheon. Doing so will give your ruler a temporary boost as well as activate a special building granting a permanent bonus to the holding’s province. These dedicated shrines are permanent, merely becoming inactive when under a ruler of a different religion. The kind of boost that they grant is naturally tied to the god they are being dedicated to.

20180730094406_1.jpg


Finally, Hellenism has been given access to a few societies, though most of them, like the religion, will need to be recreated by a powerful ruler before becoming active.
Aside from having immediate access to Hermetics, Hellenics can now form the Stoics (a Monastic Order), the Bacchants (a Satanist society), and the Olympian Champions (a Warrior Lodge). Aside from their outlook, the Stoics and Bacchants work exactly as their Christian counterparts, with the one exception being that the Rank 4 County Conversion power of the Stoics will convert a province culturally rather than religiously.

Well then, this should cover most of it.


Note: As we are aware that the inclusion of the Hellenic religion might break immersion for some of our players, we have included a Game Rule to go with it. If the rule is turned off, it will disable the Delve into Classics decision and the Hellenic Revival event chain following the Roman Empire’s restoration, removing any chance of the religion reappearing in a regular game (though note that the religion might still spawn in Random World, depending on what settings you use when generating its history).
 

LeSingeAffame

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Does reviving Hellenism specifically require being emperor of Rome or can any cloudcuckoolander on a holy spot revive it?

also when you noted that romance speakers will be particularly quick to take Latin back up does that include ones not in the culture groups like Vlach?
Now, let us go back to Hellenism proper. As I was saying before, there is a second way for a ruler to restore the dead religion, if conquering all of western Europe is too much of a hassle for you.
If you are a Christian, of either Greek or Italian culture, your capital is located in Southern Europe, you completely control one of the Hellenic Holy Sites (Thessalonika, Athens, Rome, Alexandria or Abydos), and you are interested in scholarly matters, or are insane, you will have access to a new decision: Delve into Classics.
If taken, this decision will allow a character to go through a short event chain during which you might become enamored enough with Hellenic mythology to decide to secretly convert to it and start your own Society of Hellenes. Whatever you wish to do after that in order to spread the religion will be up to you.
 

Wixelt

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Its more classic romaboo, than byzanaboo...

Byzantium was pretty good, but under Rome was the best Europe had ever been.
 

Emperor_Constantine

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If the Romans go pagan there should be an option for a Christian or Muslim to join each other's crusades or jihad. I've had games where a Christian adventurer conquered either maurentenia or the Arabian peninsula declaring a new empire. It's an epic thing.
 

Dakka

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Praise Zeus!
Is there any chance you can make the gods’ names sensitive to the dominant culture of the faith? IE if the majority of Hellenic characters are Greek, can the gods use their Greek names?
I shall dedicate my first temples to Artemis and Athena!
 

Viridianus

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Unexpected but go-o-od...
I can actually imagine a revival in Latin being within the scope of realism, since for half of the game's timeframe everyone spoke dialects of Latin instead of individual Romance languages anyway. Latin as a lingua franca could hold the same weight that Arabic did in displacing languages, and with greater probability since it's actually ancestral with massive general similarity and/or literally just the standardized register of the language they're speaking anyway. After all, with a proper empire, the language can be standardized
Linguistically, that's... unlikely. By Charlemagne's start date (not to mention the later ones) Latin was a dead language of writing for two centuries at least, and what the different countries actually spoke differed enough to be recognized as different languages (consider Strasburg oaths at the first half of 9 AC, between Charlemagne and Old Gods). Trying to make them adhere to 1 BC language rules would be... yes, as bizarre as Arabic or Chinese situation now is. No one actually speaks Modern Standard Arabic (based on a 7 AC dialect of Quran) as a first language, you know? Same would probably happen to Latin.
 

Asiak

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Eh, no. The Hellenic Religious head is specifically King-tier: the Pagan Pontifex Maximus should have the same tier as the Christian Pontifex Maximus.

I've been assuming that if we make them into the secular Fylkir / Caliph styles those will be duchy tier?
 

Asiak

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Praise Zeus!
Is there any chance you can make the gods’ names sensitive to the dominant culture of the faith? IE if the majority of Hellenic characters are Greek, can the gods use their Greek names?
I shall dedicate my first temples to Artemis and Athena!

They said that will be the case for Greeks yes.
 

Memoryofthelost

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Well, you are not burning Rome, you are burning the Vatican, as an Orthodox Roman Emperor that wants to assert dominance over the Papacy.
Or you could just be a lunatic.
I'm just saying, the option is still available... And those pesky temple holdings are still in the way...
Can a Catholic Emperor burn Rome? Just asking since it seems a great way to keep the Pope in line.:p
 

Kapitalisti

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Can a Catholic Emperor burn Rome? Just asking since it seems a great way to keep the Pope in line.:p

"The emperor was just having a bbq with his closest friends and family and whoops..."
 

Aaron_S

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I have a question regarding why there will probably not be a papacy leadership on reformation and its circumstances.
Is this simply due to a lack of time to research and write all the potential titles involved("cardinals", who due to not being christian cardians aren't cardinals to begin with AND THEN translating those titles into all availible languages, "pope" itself), setting all the potential reformed religion's values towards virtue/sins/regular personality for the elections, etc. OR is this a problem not related to extensive busywork and therefore probably performance stuff and engine limitations?

If its the former and there just wasn't time for pagan papacy, will it be possible in the future for modders to create a papacy leadership doctrine? With fleshed out hellenism, it would really be a shame if there won't be some mod fixes.
 

jicker

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Would be cool if there were localized deity names for Coptic culture Hellenics as well.

And maybe tolerance of the homosexual trait although that’s a bit more of a stretch (plenty of anti-homo pagans around back then)

Anyway looks great and I totally wasn’t expecting it.
 

classicist

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Well I can't say I'm thrilled, but at least this was a relatively elegant way of stopping the constant clamouring for enabling Hellenic paganism... It doesn't involve any hypothetically 'pagan' Maniot peasants, in the first instance.
 

Asiak

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I have a question regarding why there will probably not be a papacy leadership on reformation and its circumstances.
Is this simply due to a lack of time to research and write all the potential titles involved("cardinals", who due to not being christian cardians aren't cardinals to begin with AND THEN translating those titles into all availible languages, "pope" itself), setting all the potential reformed religion's values towards virtue/sins/regular personality for the elections, etc. OR is this a problem not related to extensive busywork and therefore probably performance stuff and engine limitations?

If its the former and there just wasn't time for pagan papacy, will it be possible in the future for modders to create a papacy leadership doctrine? With fleshed out hellenism, it would really be a shame if there won't be some mod fixes.

The Hellenic religion will be able to choose between Fylkir/Caliph like head, Pope like head, Autocephaly, or no religious head like the other Pagan faiths.

Your assumption is that college of cardinal mechanics will be coming to pagan they said they won't be. I do think there will be special names of some sort for the various Pagan popes but we don't know that yet.