Why rush medium tanks as Germany?

[TheMoe]

I've read quite a few posts encouraging me and other players to "rush medium tanks" as 1936 Germany. I'm having a hard time with this idea and I know it's because I simply haven't played enough to understand the significance of the stats I'm looking at. I'm also only single player, so no PVP.

Comparison of stats in mid-1940



Here's what I see:

Arguments for light tanks:

1. It looks to me from my experience sending volunteers that most tanks are lost to attrition in the early game. Therefore there's a good argument for the improved light tank chassis over the standard medium tank chassis since the improved light tank has a base increase in reliability.

2. I can get the armor of the light tank up to 50+ and then 80+ as the game approaches 1940. Seems to me that most AI divisions don't have piercing that high. Maybe I'm wrong about this?

3. Less research than if building medium tanks

4. Little bit cheaper in IC costs

5. I can get to the fifth research slot about five months sooner than if I go through the two focuses required to rush the light tanks

6. Higher breakthrough from the three-man turret as opposed to the fixed turret + howitzer


Arguments against light tanks for for rushing medium tanks:

1. Med tanks can fit the howitzer which gives progressively higher soft attack while the light tank is stuck using the Support gun which maxes out at 25 soft and 5 hard attack.

2. Med tanks have progressively higher armor values (see screenshot).

3. They don't cost that much more than light tanks, and by 1940 can do a little less than 1.5 times the soft attack per vehicle.

4. They do eventually catch up in terms of reliability.

5. It's possible to win using med tanks only, while still being able to upgrade armor, reliability, and soft attack so much so that by 1941 a med tank with a howitzer II has twice the soft attack of a light tank.

It's Sept 1940 and I'm attacking Russia early using 8 relatively beefy light tank divisions and one medium tank division.

Light tank division:



Medium tank division:



Edit: When I compare the two divisions, I see the medium tank division has:

60+ more soft attack
25+ less hard attack
~30 more defense
220+ lower breakthrough
19 higher average armor score
60 fewer tanks in the entire division

I don't know enough to judge the significance of these figures other than to say with that much lower breakthrough, I would suspect that fewer attacks would get through? It's clear that 50 fewer tanks completely negates the savings in IC over the medium tanks.

Maybe the short end of the argument is that light tanks are really only good for Armored Recon and early game. The bigger picture is that the game usually lasts past 1940 and it's important to consider the increased soft attack from the constantly improved howitzer? Maybe the last fact is large enough to provide a singular argument against ever using light tanks?

 

[Ilyasviel]

Notice how the light tank division is actually more expensive despite being significantly weaker. And then remember that the gap is only going to get greater as the game progresses. You can win with light tanks, but there's actually no logical reason to use them except as flame tanks or recon.

 

[TheMoe]

Notice how the light tank division is actually more expensive despite being significantly weaker. And then remember that the gap is only going to get greater as the game progresses. You can win with light tanks, but there's actually no logical reason to use them except as flame tanks or recon.

Thanks. I'm just getting back into the game, and I can see the estimated cost is significantly higher. Totally missed that.

 

[marcelo r. r.]

You can win barbarrosa with light tanks, but if i vaguely remember our experienced comrades here in forum says 1942 weapons(weapons III) can pierce its armor. So probably light tanks start losing they "Spearhead" utility by 1943, when AI normally catch up the weapons III production.

I was adept of light tanks too for many years, but i become adept of medium tanks because they sustain better longer atacks(i dont know why, i imagine is breaktrough stats).

Also germany economy is still too easy to manage, so rush for medium add up a challenge try a tech-rush.

Im my current run, for example, i can win everything with Tier 3 mediums, but i rushed for modern tanks, at least i have something to do(manage production and chromium scarcity).

 

[marcelo r. r.]

I did a test here, changing medium templates(i have designed latest light tank, and latest medium tank).... i can see that Light Tank loses stats thats make a good tank. My designs try mimic pre-designer models.

-83 Hard Atack.
-138 Breakthroug.
-36 Armor.
-46 Piercing.

Its mean, it can work against AI because AI dont design good tanks.

here a tier 3 full template, AI in late game is currently push for a division like that.

 

[marcelo r. r.]

I think if the player reach a point he can't decide which is better because he know how to win with both, is just a matter of how much challenge he want add to himself.

Sir youre promoted.

 

[Anaraxes]

i become adept of medium tanks because they sustain better longer atacks(i dont know why, i imagine is breaktrough stats).

You may well already know, but for the record, yes, it's the breakthrough.

Breakthrough absorbs hits for units that are on the attacking side of a battle. To be precise, each incoming attack destroys one point of Breakthrough. If the unit still has Breakthrough remaining, that attack has a 10% chance of actually landing and doing damage. If the unit has run out of Breakthrough, then that attack has a 40% chance of dealing damage. So, a unit with Breakthrough isn't totally immune to attacks, but it does suffer only 1/4 the damage compared to a unit without any Breakthrough. You could get the same endurance in combat without Breakthrough, but you'd need to multiply org and HP by that factor of 4, which isn't really possible, and you'd still be losing more equipment due to all the extra hits getting through.

Breakthrough resets every hour, just like the number of attacks. So, with Breakthrough > enemy attacks, an attacking unit may never run out at all. This is why you'll sometimes see people talk about "too much" Breakthrough. If your units have more than the number of attacks they'll ever receive from an enemy, then you could adjust the equipment design or the division template to have more of something other than Breakthrough without actually giving up anything.

This is also how the Defense stat works, except that Defense is used by units on the defending side of a battle.

The higher Hardness also helps against any enemy that has mostly soft attack (which includes all those people putting howitzers on their tanks because "soft attack is the only thing that matters"). You can think of Hardness as a percentage, so Hardness 90 instead of 80 means taking only 10% of the enemy soft attacks rather than 20%, so half damage just from the extra hardness. It also means taking 90% of the enemies' hard attack instead of 80%, but that's only a 12.5% increase in the number of attacks suffered (90/80), compared to cutting enemy soft attacks in half (10/20). So, unless the enemy unit has an extremely high hard attack value, increasing Hardness reduces the number of attacks suffered overall. (Conversely, if the enemy unit is somehow equipped with nothing but high-velocity cannons with tungsten AP and Panzershrecks so as to have nothing but hard attack, you'd prefer to attack it with units with zero Hardness, eliminating all of their attacks.)

More details on the land combat procedure in the wiki: https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Land_battle

 

[TheMoe]

Thank you all! Very helpful info! I've thoroughly enjoyed reading, and I was very happy to have an example of late game AI infantry templates. Thanks also for the explanation regarding breakthrough and defense. It makes sense now. Slowing getting back into the game and playing longer than I ever had.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

you can make decent light tank for similar damage for ~8 cost rather than more than double that, pretty much the only reason to use them

 

[Cavalry]

light tank is Ok for early and swiitch to light SPG later at minimum production loss. For light tank division, just switch in 1 medium tank then you have medium armor level. And you can always have medium tank later, don't use just one templates for every situation.

 

[AngryHitsuji]

Germany gets crazy speed buffs available to them, and the ability to get Mediums quicker. If you use lights for armoured recon you can still start the game building the light tank units and stream in mediums so you aren't really losing anything by going to mediums quickly.

 

[jayz806]

I vaguely recall in the haze of history that SecretMaster had an interesting multi-player experience with a no-medium tank Germany.

That said, it really comes down to single player/multi-player; historical(ish) template vs min max template; industrial priority.

 

[TheMoe]

light tank is Ok for early and swiitch to light SPG later at minimum production loss. For light tank division, just switch in 1 medium tank then you have medium armor level. And you can always have medium tank later, don't use just one templates for every situation.

Thanks. I looked for a turret I could use as a howitzer, and I couldn't find one that fit on the light chassis. Which turret is it? Looks to me like the light tank can only take light guns, no matter what turret I used (fixed or three-man). Best I could do was the close support gun at 25 soft and 5 hard.

 

[Dimmie_Dumm]

Thanks. I looked for a turret I could use as a howitzer, and I couldn't find one that fit on the light chassis. Which turret is it? Looks to me like the light tank can only take light guns, no matter what turret I used (fixed or three-man). Best I could do was the close support gun at 25 soft and 5 hard.

It's fixed superstructure and designating the vehicle into SPG in the drop-down menu.

 

[TheMoe]

It's fixed superstructure and designating the vehicle into SPG in the drop-down menu.

Thank you! Never tried that. Will an SPG still work as Armored Recon?

 

[Corpse Fool]

Thank you! Never tried that. Will an SPG still work as Armored Recon?

No, and they won't be tanks for the standard tank battalion either. They will be SPG.
One thing that hasn't seemed to have been touched on, is the superiority of medium flank tanks compared to light flame tanks. Unless they recently changed that again and I missed it.

 

[TheMoe]

No, and they won't be tanks for the standard tank battalion either. They will be SPG.
One thing that hasn't seemed to have been touched on, is the superiority of medium flank tanks compared to light flame tanks. Unless they recently changed that again and I missed it.

Thanks for the info!

 

[Jays298]

I tend to make a lot of light tanks but I put them with motorized (its like an SPG role but not calling them SPG because I don't want to use XP or deal with the hassle).

Early game / early war / spanish civil war, light tanks are good. They can pack on a lot of soft attack.

I tend to use mediums and heavies for armor and most "true" tank divisions.

Normal AI isn't building enough tanks for armor to matter. Expert AI will build a lot of medium and heavy tanks, necessitating medium and heavy tanks for piercing (or extensive Anti tank research).

 

[TheMoe]

I tend to make a lot of light tanks but I put them with motorized (its like an SPG role but not calling them SPG because I don't want to use XP or deal with the hassle).

Early game / early war / spanish civil war, light tanks are good. They can pack on a lot of soft attack.

I tend to use mediums and heavies for armor and most "true" tank divisions.

Normal AI isn't building enough tanks for armor to matter. Expert AI will build a lot of medium and heavy tanks, necessitating medium and heavy tanks for piercing (or extensive Anti tank research).

View attachment 1128802

Thanks! It's helpful to see the template with support companies. Are you having any issues with a 30 width in terms of supply? I used to build 40 or 44 width, then backed off to 24 width to reduce supply issues. Seems to be an improvement with the smaller sizes, but it could just be changes in the game since I played last.

 

[Corpse Fool]

I used to build 40 or 44 width, then backed off to 24 width to reduce supply issues.

If anything, smaller widths for divisions of 'similar' composition (and include support companies), are worse on supply.