Why are some tank designs so useless?

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even so, there were attempts to up-gun and figure out what would be needed. having something akin to "soft attack, hard attack, and piercing" for own tank is reasonable in game terms; armies tested their guns and how well their own armor performed.



what they lacked was knowing what exactly the enemy would do, as you say. we can only say "you don't need more than x piercing" in hoi 4 because the ai is predictable. this is a fault of ai scripting, not how the mechanic itself is implemented (although the latter could be improved; right now, failure to pen armor is something people mostly don't worry about even in mp).
AI is both predictable and poorly scripted.

But pre-WW2 it was normal to get enemy equipment and test it out.

USSR bought German tanks and used their stats to measure how well their AT would perform. It also used captured Polish, German and French tanks from a repair shop in 1939 for testing purposes.

Poland tested British Vickers 6-ton tanks.

UK tested Lt. vz. 35 & TNH tanks before WW2.

Nobody really knew what tank development would end up in, at the end of the day, but there was generally little surprise in what was being observed on the battlefield. Because we have hindsight, we generally know that WW2 ended up in everyone using medium tanks.



On the other end, if you know what everyone did in WW2, you could optimize your army for that.

For example, USSR knew that German artillery is based around howitzers for soft attack and 37mm AT for hard attack. So they pushed for T-34 tanks, that were moderately armored all-round, and could ignore 37mm fire.

Germany on the other end, knew that Soviet artillery is based around mostly field cannons (that can double as AT). So they pushed for tanks with maximum frontal armor and reduced side armor: as they knew, they can't negate most enemy fire all-round anyways.

I would personally argue that there should be a "Rock-paper-scissors" situation. Where medium tanks>heavy tanks (mediums can mount a big enough gun to penetrate heavies), heavies>lights (heavies can mount thick enough armor to be invincible to light tanks), lights>mediums (as lights can mount a big enough gun to penetrate mediums) from an economics standpoint.
 
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I would personally argue that there should be a "Rock-paper-scissors" situation. Where medium tanks>heavy tanks (mediums can mount a big enough gun to penetrate heavies), heavies>lights (heavies can mount thick enough armor to be invincible to light tanks), lights>mediums (as lights can mount a big enough gun to penetrate mediums) from an economics standpoint.

it's weird to think they will let you have a 2 engine small frame fighter (even though that's a heavy fighter), a 4 engine heavy fighter, or a CL only fleet yet they'll cry foul on a fast fuel efficient heavy tank with good reliability.
 
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I would personally argue that there should be a "Rock-paper-scissors" situation. Where medium tanks>heavy tanks (mediums can mount a big enough gun to penetrate heavies), heavies>lights (heavies can mount thick enough armor to be invincible to light tanks), lights>mediums (as lights can mount a big enough gun to penetrate mediums) from an economics standpoint.


I think that would be ideal in terms of elegant game design. It would be fairly easy to trigger an event at the start of the game for each AI major and randomly determine which of the 3 they concentrate on, which would make planning your own tank production interesting.

...but they would need to figure out getting the AI to use tanks as tanks for the innovation to be meaningful.
 
if anything, focus tree changes altered these countries more than the designer.
Preposterous. Nothing changed the air war as much as the designer did - the kill ratios nowadays are absolutely absurd. I never saw 30,40:1 before BBA, even with a tech advantage. Now I see this every game, it's ludicrous how the AI isn't allowed to build a good fighter. CAS damage is insane now too.
 
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Preposterous. Nothing changed the air war as much as the designer did - the kill ratios nowadays are absolutely absurd. I never saw 30,40:1 before BBA, even with a tech advantage. Now I see this every game, it's ludicrous how the AI isn't allowed to build a good fighter. CAS damage is insane now too.
you could get 30:1 or more using xp upgraded fighter 3s even in extreme late game before 2020, usually by just baiting a fight over an air zone where most enemy planes had bad efficiency.

similarly, nukes would win the air war on the spot back then just like now in sp.

if it wasn't extreme late game, tech rushing fighter 3 would let you just mop ai stuff with tech rather than area it's engaged.

for mp, i agree the designer changed the considerations there. for sp there are people on reddit unironically telling me that using regular military access and naval invasions is an "exploit" (or similar standards) lol
 
Preposterous. Nothing changed the air war as much as the designer did - the kill ratios nowadays are absolutely absurd. I never saw 30,40:1 before BBA, even with a tech advantage. Now I see this every game, it's ludicrous how the AI isn't allowed to build a good fighter. CAS damage is insane now too.
This is all tied back to the meta of MP for them, finding some gimmick and claiming it's a skill, it's why I call it the HOI4 noobtube. The rest of us know why sticking flame tanks on every unit, a light cruiser fleet, or a 4 engine heavy fighter couldn't happen and would like those things patched out. Meanwhile on the other side this is "Min/Maxing" as though that was ever all that enjoyable on a MMORPG.

Clearly it's unnecessary in SP, while I won't think everything being slave to 7-2 and SF was bettter, you did have to know what your doctrine's strengths were back then if you strayed from that path. Now I can pretty much design anything from 10-40w and it's going to work.

All these Youtubers, telling me what I HAVE to make for my tanks, divisions, planes, etc is mostly untrue...I can generally hold everything with the standard 9 inf the game gives at you, stick at AT in their support and make sure we have enough back up. Even the lameo 5-5 tank divisions seem to work. It's only the really small units that are 3 or less that seem to fail (unless they're the other COD-esque gimmick of 1 battalion paratroopers).

Now in fairness to the MP crowd, if designers didn't stick a name to these features like say allowing me to make a 2 engine small fighter or pretend the slightly faster moving cruiser can't be hit by a BB's guns or even just renamed the flame tank to armored vehicle-launched bridge I'd back off. But instead I get little Timmy arguing with me about "this 1 time in WW2", or "this 1 time in HOI4", because he wants to keep this stupid gimmick and wants the rest of us to act like we think it's a skill and not the GSG equivalent of the FPS noob tube, C4 pack, or 1 shot knife attack.
 
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This is all tied back to the meta of MP for them, finding some gimmick and claiming it's a skill, it's why I call it the HOI4 noobtube. The rest of us know why sticking flame tanks on every unit, a light cruiser fleet, or a 4 engine heavy fighter couldn't happen and would like those things patched out. Meanwhile on the other side this is "Min/Maxing" as though that was ever all that enjoyable on a MMORPG.
experienced players know that putting flame tanks on everything is a good way to waste a ton of production for not much benefit

you know, kind of like how it was in history

i'm not sure which meta you're looking at where 4 engine fighter is optimal either?

Clearly it's unnecessary in SP, while I won't think everything being slave to 7-2 and SF was bettter
7/2 hasn't been anything approximating "optimal" since before waking the tiger. using/advocating line artillery in superior firepower more or less marks a player either as a beginner or one who hasn't looked at the tradeoffs they're making.

either way, notion that this was somehow "meta" implies an odd definition of "meta". along the lines of "something suboptimal that tons of people think is good and use anyway"

All these Youtubers, telling me what I HAVE to make for my tanks, divisions, planes, etc is mostly untrue
almost no youtubers say that though ("have" to do stuff). quote is just misrepresenting their position, either deliberately or due to not actually watching them and listening to what they say. some even explicitly say a wide range of things are viable especially against ai.

act like we think it's a skill and not the GSG equivalent of the FPS noob tube, C4 pack, or 1 shot knife attack.
there seems to be a persistent misunderstanding of what good play actually looks like in these games lol. you're arguing against a "meta" that doesn't exist in most cases. the funny part is calling out the skill of other players this way though!

good players win, and in many of these examples (including hoi 4), they didn't consistently use the things that supposedly take no skill to achieve those wins...
 
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7/2 hasn't been anything approximating "optimal" since before waking the tiger
I thought, just for fun, I would emphasise this point because of course 7/2 divisions or optimal for (wait for it), minimising casualties (manpower losses) in defensive battles that you win where the attacker is a soft target and you limit yourself to using infantry and artillery battalions. They are pretty much not optimal for any other conditions. However, 7/2s aren't a stupid unit to have so you can play a game where they are your main/only infantry unit if you really want to.
 
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I thought, just for fun, I would emphasise this point because of course 7/2 divisions or optimal for (wait for it), minimising casualties (manpower losses) in defensive battles that you win where the attacker is a soft target and you limit yourself to using infantry and artillery battalions. They are pretty much not optimal for any other conditions. However, 7/2s aren't a stupid unit to have so you can play a game where they are your main/only infantry unit if you really want to.
even under those constraints, it's not necessarily true. you can get more damage by using more arty (like 3/3 or 4/4), ending the battle faster while still not taking crits...best i can tell, this amounts to fewer casualties taken using a build that's trying to grind attacker on a defensive line.

if running superior firepower, you can also get more damage/width and barely less hit point by just spamming support companies w/o any line arty. line arty tends to straight up reduce the damage you do under this doctrine. it's why i called out the original message in particular - that exact doctrine + template mix signals anything but a "meta" player.
 
even under those constraints, it's not necessarily true. you can get more damage by using more arty (like 3/3 or 4/4), ending the battle faster while still not taking crits...best i can tell, this amounts to fewer casualties taken using a build that's trying to grind attacker on a defensive line.
Sticking to the strict rule inf and art only 7/2 is very close to the sweet point. You can appraise this by using the basic Lanchester square law. Efficiency for casualties can be appraised for a specific combat width by maximising HP per manpower times soft attack per manpower. The sweet point for this is very close to the 7/2 but. with modifiers, may shift to something like a 6/2 (ie a slightly higher artillery ratio). However, this does assume that whoever is attacking you has plenty of breakthrough. Raising the artillery content tends to undermine the casualty efficiency due to the reduction of hit points which starts having more impact than the increased firepower. In most real world situations there are so many other factors that it all becomes a bit moot.
 
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Sticking to the strict rule inf and art only 7/2 is very close to the sweet point. You can appraise this by using the basic Lanchester square law. Efficiency for casualties can be appraised for a specific combat width by maximising HP per manpower times soft attack per manpower. The sweet point for this is very close to the 7/2 but. with modifiers, may shift to something like a 6/2 (ie a slightly higher artillery ratio). However, this does assume that whoever is attacking you has plenty of breakthrough. Raising the artillery content tends to undermine the casualty efficiency due to the reduction of hit points which starts having more impact than the increased firepower. In most real world situations there are so many other factors that it all becomes a bit moot.
this is why i say it's not necessarily true. for it to be true, you have to make assumptions that usually don't track to game situations

this was using 3/3, for example



the above was also using grand battleplan, not superior firepower, because using line arty with integrated support is still nonsense.

"whoever is attacking you has plenty of breakthrough" is not a practical assumption for single player. the vast majority of ai divisions do not (even its tank divisions usually take crits). we also have to make assumptions about attacker coordination and their own soft attack values, both of which will influence whether smaller divs with support companies or 7/2 takes more vs less damage to attacker. 5/0s at width have more total defense than 7/2 at width, but are at risk of being targeted down individually.

regardless, since more damage = attacker taking more crits = they de-org faster, more damage is really valuable for this hypothetical. in fact, there are plenty of cases vs ai where adding damage will hold when otherwise you wouldn't, because at high enough damage output, ai can't org-cycle you anymore (you out-damage its org recovery at max supplied divisions).

although you can certainly look at values like sa/width or others as a proxy for how good a division is, i'm also speaking from tons of practical experience. the parrot theme on reddit is that "attacking with infantry" and "attacking with small widths" will "bleed". when i micro with infantry, i achieve casualty ratios that those same players can't using tanks. this is in large part due to the following:

- most combat vs ai in most wars is the ai battleplan smashing divisions into you. "offensive" divisions are a tiny fraction of combat hours in hoi 4 sp
- regardless of using tanks or infantry, you want to deal a ton of damage of the type that matters vs target (almost always soft in unmodded sp)
- both infantry and tanks can be set up to deal 3000-5000 or more soft attack damage onto a target province, which de-orgs defenders there in < 1 day.
- casualties closing a pocket are minimal.

tanks confer a small advantage during the 3rd point above. people claim this is the difference of hundreds of thousands of manpower, but it's usually more like 5-25k vs ai, which has no high-hardness countermeasures. unless offensive tank or infantry div are a meme, your casualties are > 90% from ai hitting your line regardless, and nearly always with insufficient breakthrough to avoid crits. thus we really care about damage/width, and 7/2s are a poor choice for that using superior firepower.
 
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You are missing that Spg can use smaller chassis for saving or utilize old production lines, or use heavy gun on medium chassis.

A medium Spg can be built at half cost vs medium tank, use less armor. And they have free soft attack.
Yeah.

SPG's are constantly ungairly shat on by players who don't know better, and get all their wisdom from YouTube videos.

It's important to note the question of "what is good" has different answers depending on when you go to war, and with what nations, against who.

Players who are obsessed with playing on Historical, and then often doing completely ahistorical things, and starting WW2 early are going to find different answers to this than those who play alt-history paths and fight a much later war.

SPG's, in particular, are better at higher tech levels both because they benefit disproportionately from Artillery techs (which both raise their Attack modifier, and give them access to better main guns), and because they are best made by converting older tank designs (for instance, you can convert Basic Medium Tanks into Improved Medium SPG's).

WW2 likely would have gone on a lot longer if the Nazis had fought more defensively and not overextended themselves so much into the USSR, while fighting on multiple fronts (not launching Barbarossa and focusing just on the UK and Africa, and fortifying their coasts and building Anti-Air emplacement and subs for several more years first, for instance...), to give just one example.

A later war, means SPG's (which were historically VERY important during the 1950's and 60's Cold War buildups, particularly for the USSR) become much more important and valuable. A Heavy Howitzer on a medium frame, built from upgrading an old Basic Medium Tank is MUCH cheaper Attack than a newer Improved Medium Tabk...
 
Their production have thirsty for metals, even with germany you have to invade portugal to be affordable.

Germany is, and historically was, starved for natural resources.

If you want SPG's to really shine, play as the USSR, or play non-historical in some sort of alliance with Portugal or the Soviets (often, this means changing strategy based on what alliances present themselves: i.e. only building SPG's if you can gain one of these as allies).

Soviet armor doctrine is and should be different than for the Germans. Their abundant Manpower, natural resources, and army debuffs all add up to prioritizing Soft Attack more than the Germans.

And because of the vast size of the Eastern Front, attack/width really doesn't matter as much for the defenders, as it will rarely be saturated, and you actually need some divisions in reserve to cycle to the front as your frontlime units are de-orged as the Soviets.

Especially if you're playing ahistorical USSR, and not dealing with sweaty Axis MP players who push the game mechanics to the breaking-point (often doing completely ahistorical things, like making the Axis not have to worry about Oil by pushing Romanian production to unrealistic levels, in the process), SPG's are going to be your friend. However, they can also be useful when playing Communist Germany in alliance with the USSR with a late WW2 kick-off, for instance.
 
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You can appraise this by using the basic Lanchester square law
  1. There's no Lanchester IRL, it's just an easy reference to a "math equation for the masses". What are the peopele who cannot work with more than a simplest function?
  2. Lanchester "so-called" law is basically a force on force of static K/D. It means:last time it was usable per-se iwa probably for modelling Stone Age battles and still I'm not sure they were so stupid not to use basic tactics. Lanchester "so called" formular dos not take into account:
    1. The effect of comined arms. Again it means Stone Age. Even a combined K/D model of Alexander's Copanion Cavalry and Phalanxes is not represnted.
    2. Diffrence in effect in flanking, effect on resupply and hence on combat effetiveness etc.
  3. Believe me:
    1. All aspects of war math modelling has gone way way ahed than Lanchester fornula since that sime.
    2. War modelling is rather simple by the standards of current math modelling.
    3. It might seem to you the are of war modelling is stalled because no one posts stuff in the wild. But that's not because no one was smart enough to apply math to war modelling but because if you wanna sell this stuff pubilcity rather hurts.
 
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SPG's, in particular, are better at higher tech levels both because they benefit disproportionately from Artillery techs (which both raise their Attack modifier, and give them access to better main guns), and because they are best made by converting older tank designs (for instance, you can convert Basic Medium Tanks into Improved Medium SPG's).
Tbh, that pretty much sums up what I dislike about SPGs: Why do I have to reach late game artillery tech and do conversion shenanigans to make them viable? Why can't they just... have the same firepower as a comparable tank while being cheaper to produce, trading in armor, breakthrough and hardness?

Instead I get a vehicle that has the same cost as a tank but takes up more space and has worse stats across the board until tech advancements give them the advantage in per-vehicle firepower.

I feel like they currently are a mix of assault guns and actual SPGs where they have lower "tank stats" and take up 3 width because they are second line artillery, but also use fully armored superstructures that are as expensive as any turret and come in (almost) the same amount of vehicles per battalion because they are frontline units, and in the end they fall short in either role until they magically get strong during the late game (while tanks that are using the same gun don't get that benefit).

Edit: typo
 
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Tbh, that pretty much sums up what I dislike about SPGs: Why do I have to reach late game artillery tech and do conversion shenanigans to make them viable? Why can't they just... have the same firepower as a comparable tank while being cheaper to produce, trading in armor, breakthrough and hardness?

Instead I get a vehicle that has the same cost as a tank but takes up more space and has worse stats across the board until tech advancements give them the advantage in per-vehicle firepower.

I feel like they currently are a mix of assault guns and actual SPGs where they have lower "tank stats" and take up 3 width because they are second line artillery, but also use fully armored superstructures that are as expensive as any turret and come in (almost) the same mount of vehicles per battalion because they are frontline units, and in the end they fall short in either role until they magically get strong during the late game (while tanks that are using the same gun don't get that benefit).
Probably an issue with the width/number of vehicles per battalion is all different between TDs, Tanks, SPGs, SPAAs. Ok I lied, only SPG widths are different.

SPGs are 3 width compared to 2 width for tanks, TDs, SPAAs.
Medium SPG is 36 vehicles, 3 width
Medium Tank is 50 vehicles, 2 width
Medium SPAA is 12 vehicles, 2 width
Medium TD is 24 vehicles, 2 width

This is a bit annoying imo. Maybe ties into an arty rework? Kind of annoying how arty is 3 width.
 
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Probably an issue with the width/number of vehicles per battalion is all different between TDs, Tanks, SPGs, SPAAs. Ok I lied, only SPG widths are different.

SPGs are 3 width compared to 2 width for tanks, TDs, SPAAs.
Medium SPG is 36 vehicles, 3 width
Medium Tank is 50 vehicles, 2 width
Medium SPAA is 12 vehicles, 2 width
Medium TD is 24 vehicles, 2 width

This is a bit annoying imo. Maybe ties into an arty rework? Kind of annoying how arty is 3 width.
Your numbers are incorrect. TD and SPG use the same amount of vehicles as their tank counterparts. Only SPAA use fewer.
 
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Tbh, that pretty much sums up what I dislike about SPGs: Why do I have to reach late game artillery tech and do conversion shenanigans to make them viable? Why can't they just... have the same firepower as a comparable tank while being cheaper to produce, trading in armor, breakthrough and hardness?

They rely on later tech, because historically, there were advances in indirect fire capabilities over time: from shells, to crew training, to on-field trajectory modeling (w/ eventual limited use of early computers, I believe), to gun barrels.

The use of the "exact same gun" is a shortcut, and nonsense. Stuff like Heavy Howitzers generally shouldn't be usable on tanks at all.

And, SPG's were not a second-rate tool. They were not cheaper replacements for tanks. They were advanced pieces of equipment that required better doctrine to use to their max, that increased the effectiveness of divisions vs. armor divisions with just greater numbers and no SPG's.