What is causing muslims to be so crazy good now?
- Thread starter CaptainChiatrol
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In my game I was impressed to see that the reaction of the Christian world to relentless Abbasid blobbing was adequate.
Around 820 the Abbasids succeeded in conquering Anatolia. In response to this, the Catholics immedaitely began the crusades and found ALL of the holy orders simultaneously. The crusade for Jerusalem against a MASSIVE Abbasid blob succeeded, thanks to 20000 elite holy order troops. The Teutonic Order took control of the holy land and held it for several years.
The next Abbasid invasion conquered Greece and was also immediately followed by a successful crusade for Greece. Even super-strong muslims can't do much when faced with 20000 heavy cavalry.
My point is though. The Christians aren't exactly pushovers. They have a lot of mechanics that should prevent massive expansion of foreign religions into their territory. If muslims can, despite this, consistently make large conquest of Christian land then there is a serious balance issue.
Around 820 the Abbasids succeeded in conquering Anatolia. In response to this, the Catholics immedaitely began the crusades and found ALL of the holy orders simultaneously. The crusade for Jerusalem against a MASSIVE Abbasid blob succeeded, thanks to 20000 elite holy order troops. The Teutonic Order took control of the holy land and held it for several years.
The next Abbasid invasion conquered Greece and was also immediately followed by a successful crusade for Greece. Even super-strong muslims can't do much when faced with 20000 heavy cavalry.
My point is though. The Christians aren't exactly pushovers. They have a lot of mechanics that should prevent massive expansion of foreign religions into their territory. If muslims can, despite this, consistently make large conquest of Christian land then there is a serious balance issue.
Half the problem is that unless the response is united, they will win. On top of that, the only response to the Muslims being 'the ERE and Orthodoxy are gone for good' isn't exactly appropriate.
Sure, that can happen in the 800s. But the point is that the story in the Near East is supposed to be a story of ERE collapse and Muslim expansion. Just because it happens slightly too early - so what? If the Muslims are at Vienna in the 800s, then maybe we have a problem.
I think it's less the decadence system and more the lack of a Shia/Sunni split. Decadence invasions would just take the existing title and all vassals - not break up the realm in any way.
Shi'ite invasions for random kingdoms if there is no Shia caliph would go a long way to fixing things. Yet there is always a Shia caliph if you start in CM, so the Rise of the Shia event never fires - it requires d_shiite = { has_holder = no }. Yet char 163125 (Emir of Medina) always creates d_shiite in week 1.
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No, it's not supposed to be that. The decline of the ERE is more a product of its immense screw-ups than the actions of the Islamic states.
I've never seen Rise of the Shia succeed. Solution for blob breaking would have to be tied to something else.
I have, so, no, it wouldn't.
Even if doesn't succeed it drains their levies fighting random event troops. If there aren't enough then just give them more event troops.
But I don't want the solution to lazily designed Muslim blobs be even lazier Catholic holy orders. Basically, this shafts all pagan religions (having fun as fylkir? Enjoy our 20k calvary in 800!) and orthodox (lost your land? Hey, don't worry, some Catholic German man will conquer it soon). And Shia. Make Shia the power they were/are.
With the Shia scaled lower than adventurers seem to be*, I think my outcome is more common than yours. And having the entire balance of the Middle East revolve around 'does this random rebellion succeed' seems really bad. :/
*Two multipliers of 0.15, four of 0.075, no cap. TOG adventurers, though? Multipliers start at three sets of 0.25!
Rise of the Shia event is insanely likely before 1100, if it can occur. Every independent non-shiite Muslim with decadence over 10 and a kingdom or 6+ provinces can trigger it, and it has a MTTH of like 1800 months, except 450 months for the holders/lieges of Damascus, Cairo, and Tunis.
If it fails, it hardly matters - it'll keep happening, and regularly.
But again, in CM starts, it can basically never occur.
They really should add a limitation: Cannot create religious head title if vassal to another religion.
Not really any more regular than adventurers, provided the vikings never collapse utterly.
The upshot of this is that the Shia apparently have infinite manpower, but basically no chance unless they get lucky and fight some small state on the periphery. That's not going to slow down the blob.
I think they're going through the decision in the religion menu, not the create-a-title interface.
In 1218, Sunni caliphate was stretching from Persia, Southern Turkestan and Armenia to Tunisia and Abyssinia.
Ghaznavids has 60% of India stretching from Kasimir to Maldive.
They stopped Ilkhanate at Khiva-Persia borders...
Yes, they need a nerf.
Ghaznavids has 60% of India stretching from Kasimir to Maldive.
They stopped Ilkhanate at Khiva-Persia borders...
Yes, they need a nerf.
In my Old Gods start game (open beta) Abbasids, Umayyad and...uhh...that guy who controls Persia, have decadence 0 (Like every other independent Muslim dynasty). Once I saw Abbasids have 4 decadence but then it decreased back to 0 (decadence of other three have never increased). Conclusion: decadence is too easy too keep low and Muslims like blobbing.
The last 3 games played to 900 before some game breaking bug, the ERE gets decimated.
In this last, they are jogging towards annihilation and down to 117 total realm size in just 45 years. The first holy war was called for in 848 for Jerusalem in this recent game spawning 5 holy orders.
Only 2 of those first holy orders remain.
It's 893 and I think in another 25-50 years the ERE will be reduced to the size of Ireland. Francia is staying clear of the crusades completely.
Is this something they will recover from? Or can we expect this in most play-throughs until rebalanced?
I'm playing as tiny Kingdom of Essex with half the ERE size controlling the lower 1/3 of Great Britain.
In this last, they are jogging towards annihilation and down to 117 total realm size in just 45 years. The first holy war was called for in 848 for Jerusalem in this recent game spawning 5 holy orders.
Only 2 of those first holy orders remain.
It's 893 and I think in another 25-50 years the ERE will be reduced to the size of Ireland. Francia is staying clear of the crusades completely.
Is this something they will recover from? Or can we expect this in most play-throughs until rebalanced?
I'm playing as tiny Kingdom of Essex with half the ERE size controlling the lower 1/3 of Great Britain.
The last 3 games played to 900 before some game breaking bug, the ERE gets decimated.
In this last, they are jogging towards annihilation and down to 117 total realm size in just 45 years. The first holy war was called for in 848 for Jerusalem in this recent game spawning 5 holy orders.
Only 2 of those first holy orders remain.
It's 893 and I think in another 25-50 years the ERE will be reduced to the size of Ireland. Francia is staying clear of the crusades completely.
Is this something they will recover from? Or can we expect this in most play-throughs until rebalanced?
I'm playing as tiny Kingdom of Essex with half the ERE size controlling the lower 1/3 of Great Britain.
My god, the muslims are truly unstoppable now.
The only time I've seen it 'fail' as such was in my India game were it rose in Sindh, succeeded, as was immediately wiped out by hindu's nearby. Other time's I've seen it rise in Egypt, conquer north africa, then blob through arabia and take the Arabian Empire from the Abbasids.
Whoever said any part of the world in game "should be a story" about anything? What ever gave you the idea that Byzantium was doomed to collapse from the very beginning? This whole Gibbon-esque notion that the history of Byzantium is just one long decline is utterly foolish. During the reign of the Makedon emperors, Byzantium was remarkably stable and was rising strongly. Even after Manzikert, the Komnenoi did their utmost to bring it back to power. They might have succeeded too, if not for the chain of disasters in the late 1100s leading up to 1204.
Nothing in history is inevitable in the long term. CK2 reflects this. Or at least it should.
With the Abbassids it's the fact of claims they can invade and seize titles for, and it also applies to revolter nations from independence wars. They also have a claim on Egypt, which if they win, they get the Mamluks as cheap mercenaries so they can have a shit ton of troops. The Ummayads well, basically the Austrias A.I is stupid beyond belief. I played as the Ummayads and from the get go Austrias married a Karling, and then they invaded. Which I would do if the Ummayads where distracted enough for help to come ASAP, which I wasn't, so I stomped Austrias before there allies could arrive. There are serious mechanical problems that help the Muslims too, you have Catholic provinces in Africa which lead to Catholic revolts, this can trigger Jihads much earlier than Crusades.