-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Some rules of thumbs I use for setting up games :
- there should never be more goodies with special powers than traitless villagers
- it should never be possible to fully.protect 1 player from hunts
- the PL is extremely powerful and should be treated as an extra seer.
Be careful about too much protection in general. Blessed and such, the cloak, was a problem here. Especially the blessed GA with a cloak was sort of over the top.
Also, the version of the Council used here is very hard to balance. Last time I used that in a game I've made it a separate election (which means it turns into something fun amd analysable) and the powers would not act directly - instead, the Council would hand one-use time-limited.traits to individuals. That way it would never be able to fully clear anyone the way was done here, but instead put trust into someone who might very well be dead the day after.
Sounds good, I won't be able to host until I get back home next.week and a quick turnaround sounds good.
- there should never be more goodies with special powers than traitless villagers
- it should never be possible to fully.protect 1 player from hunts
- the PL is extremely powerful and should be treated as an extra seer.
Be careful about too much protection in general. Blessed and such, the cloak, was a problem here. Especially the blessed GA with a cloak was sort of over the top.
Also, the version of the Council used here is very hard to balance. Last time I used that in a game I've made it a separate election (which means it turns into something fun amd analysable) and the powers would not act directly - instead, the Council would hand one-use time-limited.traits to individuals. That way it would never be able to fully clear anyone the way was done here, but instead put trust into someone who might very well be dead the day after.
Sounds good, I won't be able to host until I get back home next.week and a quick turnaround sounds good.
I think I agree with that for the most part, problem is that traits and stuff make it fun. Lesson, I take here is a quick double clear is a bad idea and glad it didn't happen in the last game. Having information centralized so quickly dooms baddies rather quick. In this case it wasn't even as effective as it should have been.
I like this idea quite a bit, I prefer the randomize outcomes of things like OEO and don't mind cloak for the most part. The paranoia for me was real. However, I'm not really a fan of the GA.
It was a quite frustrating game from my side. Big roll-eyes on the lynch case and people's read on me.
In my defense Happycats pm's with me made me distrustful of the information, nor did he tell me who you are, just that a GA was in the game. I don't blame him necessarily he had no way to confirm my alignment though, if I was a baddie I'd probably wouldn't have contacted him. With Capage being the doctor, I questioned if there were two protectors as that was a point of disbelief in the last game. I wasn't given your name despite the fact that Capage gave Happycats mine. I had made an educated guess but I'm not very confident in whether I get something right since I'm still a little on the new side especially for bigs.
Edit: JL's really do screw baddies relatively quickly from what I've seen. Small sample size though.
Surrenders really should NOT ever be allowed to be made in chat or recognised in chat.
Always in PMs: Reason is that otherwise a villager accused of being the last wolf can say they surrender and get cleared as the game didn't end. We have had that happen... Its a really frustrating way to lost as a wolf and it's literally win by GM interaction.
Also thanks for hosting, IG. Despite the skewed balance then this was a good game. It also got closer than I ever expected, but that's down to JL malfunction.
This game was exceptionally skewed. So any balance considerations were out the window.
Look at the wolves. Every single one has a villager with the same traits, or in many cases the same traits and then more traits. Only exception is wombat the robber.
The baddies honestly never stood a chance.
Well, that was for a larger game, or for if you put the sorc in touch with the pack from the start.
Two protestor in itself wasn't necessarily bad. But having one be blessed and cloaked and also having a vH and liar made it super over the top.
Qlso, having the council be all goodies didn't help either. Once that was realised, which it fortunately never fully was, it'd mean a huge JL nucleus.
As I also told IG when he asked Wombat and I whether he should claim GM mistake in chat, then I don't think it was a GM mistake.
You did do your GA action the night you cloaked. Cloaks just void all actions. Similarly if you're the last wolf and cloak it's a no hunt. Or if you cloak as seen your scan also ends up giving nothing.
But it still happened so to say. So you shouldn't be allowed to protect the same person the following day.
Especially not when you easily could have sent in an order to cancel your GA protection when you sent in the cloak order.
Or in case that was a standing order have made a clause to it to cancel any GA orders.
Double clearings aren't a bad idea in themselves. Normally you can't just put out a double cleared spokesman like randy did.
What is bad is allowing the guild to double clear like that. The guild should honestly not be able to double clear, I think, as it allows it to jump-start a JL without an outing or anything, as seen here.
Having a mouthpiece form from an outing and then get double scanned isn't bad.
Or to have a villager have both seerish and priestly, if that fits balance.
It depends. They very much can, but its also possible to infiltrate them. And if the goodies aren't too strong they won't roll away most of the time.
If a game has seer and priest survive to the end then the village ought to survive.
As for why I reached out to Sleepy then I was 90% certain he was a wolf.
And as I had realised this game probably would be uphill due to how all those thin cases on me had started once more, and I know when they do its a matter of time before I get lynched, and since I only expected there to be one, single cultist in game, then I figured scanning for seer had priority so I took the chance and reached out.
Also as I fully expected to get hung the next day or the day after at best, so had to make the best of a bad situation.
And as I had realised this game probably would be uphill due to how all those thin cases on me had started once more, and I know when they do its a matter of time before I get lynched, and since I only expected there to be one, single cultist in game, then I figured scanning for seer had priority so I took the chance and reached out.
Also as I fully expected to get hung the next day or the day after at best, so had to make the best of a bad situation.
As something else, then I already raised this in ghost chat, albeit never got a response:
I don't think it should be allowed for the liar to have everybody claim every trait routines. It defeats the purpose of the liar and it allows JLs, and only JLs, to basically exploit the liar. Baddies can't do the same.
Plus, as mentioned, it defeats the purpose of the liar.
The liar is super strong, but is offset by how you need to be crafty and sneaky enough to make claims others don't notice.
Like when Johho posted an image of a man with a single eye as part of his RP posts to claim OEO. Or when MC in the Oliver Twist game said he wasn't a negative Nancy, to claim priest which was called Nancy that game.
Yhats the kind of claims liar was meant to have.
Not block claiming in thread.
Now, the liar should probably be able to claim I'm chat to have a specific trait and role, but I don't think it should ever be allowed for others to do those block claims. And especially not for JL to tel everybody to claim all roles. As then the liars purpose is defeated.
So I'm gonna propose the change to the liar, that such block claims aren't allowed. If there's a push to have everybody claim specific traits then only a hidden lie would be valid that day for those lies.
I.e. the overtime claim would be void and you'd have to claim it covertly too.
What does people think?
I don't think it should be allowed for the liar to have everybody claim every trait routines. It defeats the purpose of the liar and it allows JLs, and only JLs, to basically exploit the liar. Baddies can't do the same.
Plus, as mentioned, it defeats the purpose of the liar.
The liar is super strong, but is offset by how you need to be crafty and sneaky enough to make claims others don't notice.
Like when Johho posted an image of a man with a single eye as part of his RP posts to claim OEO. Or when MC in the Oliver Twist game said he wasn't a negative Nancy, to claim priest which was called Nancy that game.
Yhats the kind of claims liar was meant to have.
Not block claiming in thread.
Now, the liar should probably be able to claim I'm chat to have a specific trait and role, but I don't think it should ever be allowed for others to do those block claims. And especially not for JL to tel everybody to claim all roles. As then the liars purpose is defeated.
So I'm gonna propose the change to the liar, that such block claims aren't allowed. If there's a push to have everybody claim specific traits then only a hidden lie would be valid that day for those lies.
I.e. the overtime claim would be void and you'd have to claim it covertly too.
What does people think?
How do you police this? No block claims only for the PL to count? Or if people start block claiming, the PL can't use his powers at all even legitimately?
Agree with this. It can be hard to be a vanillager in a big especially since the complexity is sought after (part of the reason I don't like lites as much and it also can be hard to get interest in a lite). It is really hard to balance, though.
True, but I think an appeal of a big is precisely the more roles and traits as said above. As per the suggestions above, just a few tweaks could have made it a lot more balanced.
Wouldn't that require me to forget who the last wolf is? I double-checked to make sure.
- 1
Honestly, I'd not allow any overt mass claims. Covert mass claims sure.
Now, probably need to allow for single, few overt claims for the audacious and brazen liar, but that's it.
And with regard to policing it then e.g. do it similar to how you can't discuss your role PM. That isn't hard to police, as people follow those rules. And if somebody sidesteps then use ball of lightning.
Well, the first few games perhaps just have it be a stern reminder when somebody does it, and tell liar they need to make covert claims that day. But then going forward have it be a killable offense.
Or alternatively have it be that if it happens then no overt claim counts that day. After all only JLs do it and only if they're in touch with the liar, so at that point it really is their own fault if it gimps themselves.
In any case then something needs to be done.
We have had games where everybody claimed the same thing for several days in a row to essentially allow the liar to use whatever they wanted to. That's just extremely broken.
Think we even once had a JL tell everybody to claim wolf, such that the liar could eat somebody...
No, it wouldn't.
It'd require you to, in PM, tell the person in question that they needed to surrender in PM for it to count. And that any surrender post in thread doesn't.
That way, if you're in a situation where last wolf and a villager both are run up on the last day, the villager can't just say I surrender to get cleared (believe Arky has done this), as the wolf can say I surrender in chat too and it'll not mean an actual surrender, as it wasn't by PM.
It really isn't a hard way to do it.
The alternative is to not accept surrenders at all.
Allowing them to be made in thread us unacceptable, honestly, as it can, and has been, gamed by villagers to clear themselves through GM.
That’s nonsensical, the rule is you cannot protect someone two nights in a row. While cloaked he was not protected, ergo I did not protect him that night and should have been able to when he died.
And you could easily have changes the GA order to nothing when sending in the cloak order.
Or made it conditional.
Also, honestly, a cloak GA is nonsensical, but that's another thing.
.png){kind=avatar}
I think it's fairly uncontroversial to say that in a 20 player game, you don't need both protectors, a vH, a PL, a pileup of blesseds, a cloak, a guild... well, you get the idea. (Honestly, I think if we're only getting 20 players, we should probably just play Lites, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)
I claimed spy day 2 and spied on Deathbywombat. This ended up being pointless as the Guild scanned him that night and got the exact same report, though it did lead me to briefly have a paranoid idea that my spy report was being passed off as the Guild's before I realized that made no sense.
On day 4 I claimed sorcerous powers and scanned Culann, intending to seer scan him the next day and fully clear him to act as the next JL spokesperson (unless he was a baddie obviously).
Obviously on day 5 I claimed van helsing.
A disagree? C'mon Ark even you have to admit that it's a good idea to lynch you. Waiting around to get read on you is like watching paint dry.
Would people be interested in moving the deadline an hour earlier to make it a little less of a late night for our European friends? I think the majority of players are on CEST and EDT, which I know is a little tricky for the East coasters.
Again: just assume I'm good, unless I'm evil. It's not rocket science!
- 1
@Ironhide G1 Thanks for running the game!
I was using my vH scan on happycats on the night I was hunted. Would have been in contact with the priest and their apprentice.
I was using my vH scan on happycats on the night I was hunted. Would have been in contact with the priest and their apprentice.
You didn't claim every day?
Here were my guesses from ghost chat.
Guess the looking over rhe everything part was the spy claim then. I thought it was seerish.
And I had assumed you did vH early for the super scan, and I found part of your post that fit with that.
BTW, would somebody actually be able to super scan and shoot at the same night, or is a liar forced to choose between shot or super scan?
Honestly, think 22 GMT fits most Europeans well.
And if I can't stay up for midnight I generally can't stay up for 11 either, so the hour earlier wouldn't matter for me.
New game up!
forum.paradoxplaza.com
Werewolf CCLX: The Carnivons of Lycan IV
Werewolf CCLX: The Carnivons of Lycan IV Priority transmission from USS Kongo: Stardate 4366.5 The Kongo has been orbiting the planet of Lycan IV, our scanners have detected intelligent humanoid life - You have better read that with no pauses...
- 2
I probably could have been more aggressive in claiming, but worried that talking too much day 1 would put too much attention on me. Also you could scan and shoot as the VH, it's what I did on the last day to shoot Caillean and catch Grimlock.