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By the way, just in case there was any doubt - since the issue has been exploding all over this page, you should all feel free to ignore my ancient request that it be dropped.
Anyway, Sterk's point is well taken except for one thing: Nobody gives a crap about historicity. If I thought an Latin-teched China would lead to a better game, I would edit according to that and let the chips fall where they might. (In that case, presumably, it would be Sterkarm and BurningEgo who would regretfully have to find their own game.) But as it happens, I think that would be horribly unbalancing and make the game un-fun for all the non-Chinese players. So I won't do it, and Sterk and Ego will be able to play. Moslem tech, though, is not as bad. At this point I have no strong feelings about Moslem tech either way.
Well, except this one: If China is upteched, then Japan, the Moguls, and Vietnam (or whatever Indochinese nation is played) should likewise be upteched.
Not true until the 1600's China and Japan was by far MUCH more advanced then Europe it only fell behind gradually due to corruption, incompetence and the ridgedization of the Confucian Bureaucracy. Read Paul Kennedy's the Rise and Fall of the Great Powers.
The evnt AFAIK only changes some sliders in a positive way and stability -4 and changes tech group lemme check...
Okay it was much worser side effects but easily shrugged off assuming I'm not in a badboy war.
Code:
#The Strategic Decision after Zheng Ho's Journey#
event = {
id = 3703
random = no
country = CHI
name = "EVENTNAME3703"
desc = "EVENTHIST3703"
style = 1
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1435 }
offset = 1720
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1455 }
action_a ={
name = "ACTIONNAME3703A" #Inward Perfection#
command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = -5 }
command = { type = domestic which = ARISTOCRACY value = 10 }
command = { type = domestic which = SERFDOM value = 10 }
command = { type = domestic which = MERCANTILISM value = 10 }
command = { type = domestic which = LAND value = 10 }
command = { type = domestic which = QUALITY value = -10 }
command = { type = domestic which = OFFENSIVE value = -10 }
command = { type = land value = 1000 }
command = { type = infra value = 1000 }
command = { type = stability value = 6 }
}
action_b = {
name = "ACTIONNAME3703B" #Balanced Position#
command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = 1 }
command = { type = domestic which = ARISTOCRACY value = 1 }
command = { type = domestic which = SERFDOM value = 1 }
command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = 1 }
command = { type = domestic which = MERCANTILISM value = -1 }
command = { type = domestic which = LAND value = -1 }
command = { type = domestic which = QUALITY value = 1 }
command = { type = domestic which = OFFENSIVE value = 1 }
command = { type = land value = 500 }
command = { type = infra value = 500 }
command = { type = naval value = 500 }
command = { type = trade value = 500 }
command = { type = stability value = -2 }
}
action_c = {
name = "ACTIONNAME3703C" #Outward Expansion#
command = { type = technology which = muslim }
command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = 3 }
command = { type = domestic which = ARISTOCRACY value = -3 }
command = { type = domestic which = SERFDOM value = -5 }
command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = 5 }
command = { type = domestic which = MERCANTILISM value = -5 }
command = { type = domestic which = LAND value = -5 }
command = { type = domestic which = QUALITY value = 5 }
command = { type = domestic which = OFFENSIVE value = 3 }
command = { type = naval value = 2000 }
command = { type = trade value = 2000 }
command = { type = stability value = -6 }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 60 value = 8 }
}
}
Actually Japan should have Orthodox tech and Mughals human played do just fine with Muslem tech, I've seen some absolutely huge mughals that ego started and gamlan finished that was competitive with China.
Not true until the 1600's China and Japan was by far MUCH more advanced then Europe it only fell behind gradually due to corruption, incompetence and the ridgedization of the Confucian Bureaucracy. Read Paul Kennedy's the Rise and Fall of the Great Powers.
Not familiar with Kennedy, I base my opinion on the sometimes conflicting views of David Landes, Peer Vries, Andre Gunder Frank and Jack Goldstein.
Economically, China can be considered equal to "the west" until the early 1800s, but technologically and politically it had been lagging behind since the 1500s.
The reason for this "decline" (or perhaps "slower growth") is heavily disputed by historians and political scientists. But because China is so unimaginably huge it is virtually imopssible to apply generalizations to it. What innovations happened in Shanxi did not necessarily happen in the other end of the kingdom, or anywhere else. (Much like the innovations in CK.)
But if bureaucratic corruption and incompetence was the cause of the "stagnation", then it's really a wonder Europe got as far as it did. More likely north-western Europe got the upper hand due to the prominence of the burghers who managed to outmaneuver their sovereigns, like in the Dutch Low Countries.
the difference is that the Confucians had and wielded encredible influences with the Emperor and if in one generation constructed and maintained massive dykes, cannals, and iron works it could easily leave them all to rot in the next that is how much political power that the Emperor possessed that could be invoked and enforced throughout China, the Pope could not equal the Ming in this level of absolutism, the Pope could not excersize and clamp down on trade and innovation all over uniformily over catholic Europe.
There were signs of decline in the 1500's but then it was preventable and fixable through enough energy and work, in the 1600's was when the technologial difference became marked, although Japan and China were unassailiable as military technology was advanced enough especially in japans case to ward them off, 20,000,000 Japanese people can easily expell 500 Spanish conquistadores, and the 200,000,000 Ming likewise.
People, we are not having a historical discussion. Please take that to the history forum, if you want it. I'd be happy to join you there. We are having a making-the-game-fun discussion.
Flanders is an available option, but I seem to vaguely recall somebody else claiming it at some point. If that someone would please speak up, they will get dibs on it.
Blayne, I'm making dinner, no comment at this time.
Sid, quite frankly you have simply shown your unwillingness to accept anything or anyone which disagrees with your own view. You are making demands of other players while entirely ignoring what everyone else is saying. You are yelling (using CAPS) while just about everyone else is remaining entirely civil. KoM put it very plainly. You can accept it or not. Compromising is not giving up something you think is fair to give up and then saying "I demand this be accepted, it is my right". If it was up to me, you wouldn't be given the option of playing China at all. But, it is not up to me, it is up to all of us.
KoM laid it all out back on page 7 very well.
By the way KoM, why no custom avatar yet? You've been over 3,000 for a good 400 posts now.
Also, I believe Ego and I both stated interest in Flanders (he did so first though).
Yes, yes, I'm getting around to the custom avatar. These things can't be rushed, you know. Besides, at least 100 of those 400 posts are in this thread, 50 of them in the past two days over the China question. (Hey, we have our very own China Question!)
About the moslem tech, maybe we could just let the event fire, and you could make your own choices. And, fair being fair, we'd make a similar event for Japan and Indochina. As for the Moguls, they may hold their own in vanilla, but as there is likely to be a strong Byz right next to them (unlike the Ottomans they usually get), they may need a bit of help. They were certainly eaten quite rapidly in the Great Game, although unreliable players weren't any help.
Some of these references to previous games I've read here makes me think I played two sessions in a converted DD game with some of you. Rep. Spain in one brief session and Greece in another. I could never quite get the connection to the game, not having had anything to do with how the world was divided in 1936.
~Anders
Your not still thinking of requiring an indonesia player are you? Mughals and Japan I can host with vanilla stably enough but Indonesia is not only I am pretty sure unhelpable even with large edits but may add stability issues, if we have the spare player on hand willing to screw around with it, sure why not, but please do not make it a condition as others hre have admited to it being possibly to weak as well to be worth it.
And sterk, it seems confirmed that you do seem to have some kind of thing against me so please while progress is being made leave this to us.
Hum. Can I point out that there is a difference between Indo-China and Indonesia? I would have to agree that Indonesia is a pretty hopeless case. Vietnam might be salvageable with a skilled player, though. Still, let me have a look at it.
Um. Well. I admit that it would clearly take fairly massive edits to make Vietnam viable. I forgot how badly the Indo-Chinese peninsula gets screwed in the EU2 province setup. Still, perhaps if one made Vietnam the center of an ahistorical empire, with a large number of the other Indo-Chinese powers as vassals? Alternatively one might buff Bengal with some vassals and money.
