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You look at tier progression as vertical replacement instead of horizontal balancing.
Like look at Dark Warrior (T1) vs Dark Knight (T3) even if you buff Dark Warriors to the same EHP stats you would still want to bring Dark Knights for their mobility and special ability but at the same time Dark Warriors give player an option to have Shock Units vs heavy Polearm armies.

Horizontal balancing gives players tools to adapt to different situations this leads to unit variety in the late game.

Also monetary cost isn't the only cost that units can or should be balanced around. If we are talking about previous proposal then cost or investment comes in a way of hero skills. So this makes low tiers cheaper but more hero dependent and heroes more skill heavy vs higher tiers that come prepackaged and less hero dependent but this reflects in their price.
Agreed. Heroes offer great strategic and tactical options, with cultural roles that can assist city and resource building. Feudal cant be the only culture that offers cool titles and rpg contexts, it has an interesting system that can be expanded for other factions.

We can strategize with rulers and hero units in battle by specializing them in skills and roles. We could even reduce heroes in other factions by triggering events that spread false rumors about enemy rulers or earthquakes that destroy hero halls etc. They can also be recruited faster at the expense of strength, quality, level and alignment...so many possibilities for asymmetric or horizontal balance...
 
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The tier balance has become harder as AoW 4 removed many economical elements that existed in the older games, such as the need to build structures for recruiting. Right now you unlock the units very quickly and without much investment, since they come automatically with the town-upgrade. It would be quite different if you had to construct (sequentially) recruitment buildings to unlock higher tier units. This wouldn't change late-game, but would increase the number of turns where tier 1 units remain relevant. And it would add the strategic choice of when to tech/upgrade.
The decreased stack size and the new action-point system also makes lower tier units less interesting. In AoW2/3 you could drain units of their AP by triggering retaliation strikes, which opened the option to use low tier units to tie up higher tier units, but that is no longer possible with the new system.
I am also split on the new adjacency system that pulls in 3 stacks into combat. I liked it at first, but after a while it reduces combat basically to building 3-doom stacks that roll over everything. And in such large battles tier 1 units become even more useless since they are easily one-shot.

I think all of these points contribute to the problem of tier 1 usefulness and balance.
 
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You look at tier progression as vertical replacement instead of horizontal balancing.
Like look at Dark Warrior (T1) vs Dark Knight (T3) even if you buff Dark Warriors to the same EHP stats you would still want to bring Dark Knights for their mobility and special ability but at the same time Dark Warriors give player an option to have Shock Units vs heavy Polearm armies.

Horizontal balancing gives players tools to adapt to different situations this leads to unit variety in the late game.

Also monetary cost isn't the only cost that units can or should be balanced around. If we are talking about previous proposal then cost or investment comes in a way of hero skills. So this makes low tiers cheaper but more hero dependent and heroes more skill heavy vs higher tiers that come prepackaged and less hero dependent but this reflects in their price.
You are mixing two different things here. In this thread, as the title says, the problem is "mono-stacking" and, as a supposed reason for that, "enchantment stacking". And OP comes from MP, not SP.
T1 units are not in any way up to debate here. What is are the T2s gaining from Tome of the Horde and Mighty Meek-

Now, T2 - about half of the T2 units, bot cultural and Tomes, are ... Support units. As I've been mentioning a couple thousand times now, Support units are no battlers. They usually have a single magical attack (so they can keep the distance) and supportive abilities. There are virtually NUMEROUS ways to increase their survivability (increasing HPs), but they actually LACK IN SUPPORTIVE CAPABILITY. You don't fix supports (note that OP claims everything is alright with them) by making them T3s from the getgo (you'd still prefer T2s with more fighting nous). Supports simply need better support abilities that make you want USING them.

Then there are the ranged T2s: Fury as a cultural unit which becomes mounted if you pick the trait, Afflictor, which is pretty good due to their great one-shot ability in addition to their regular attack (is in Alchemy T1 Tome), and lastly the houndmaster, which summons an additional unit as help (Tome of the Horde). They are good as well. You can basically use them right away, but keep in mind, if you research these as your second Tome (Zeal first), your third tome may simple make them obsolete (Winds or Glades). I think, as I said, the problem here is that the peak of ranged units is available too early (as early as your third tome). They both should go to a T3, giving the lower tier Archer types more time to shine.

Then we have Battle Mages, acouple of them, Warlock is cultural, then a handful of Tome BMs, White Witch Pyromancer, Lightbringer and Evoker, I think, with Lightbringer being available in a T2 tome. I have no idea how the AI handles them (specifically) in combat, but Lightbringers DO try to convert. Did someone ever try to mass them? We have the Watcher as a T3 which is pretty good, imo, when we talk Battle Mages, then Banshee, plus Transmuter and Chaos Eater as T4s. BMs are debatable, but here I would also say that the problem, if there is any, comes with their magic ability(ies) and their availability, if anything. An early BM like Warlock, Pyro, Witch are not wrong, if you go that way, and the Watcher "upgrade", but I'm not sure the Scrying Tome is really a good pick except for that Watcher - making the T2s better would make this an even weaker pick.

Then we have the fighters (lots of animals, some of which evolve), the Shields, the Polearms, the Shocks and of course the Skirmishers, and it's possibly in this field where you get the most "upgrades" as T3 and T4. But frankly, since there ARE enough upgrades, it doesn't actually matter much whether they come as T3 or T4, does it? It just changes the game a bit.

Lastly - units are meant to die in battles. I know, you try to minimize losses, but there is nothing wrong with a T1 dying in some autocombat and being replaced with a T2 or T3 or T4 or T5. It's the way things go. Lebkuchenhausmeister made a good point which is my point about the 100 units achievement in AoW 3 from a different angle. Being able to play the game with three doom stacks is, what sucks. If you had to mobilize the stuff you had to in AoW 3 things would look a lot different with usefulness.

As it is, you can bolster your T1s with Tome of the Horde (and later with Mighty Meek, plus, of course, with enchantments). You can also leave the T1s more or less right away (not bothering with Tome of the Horde and immediatel upgrade with T2s and after some time with T3.

There is nothing wrong with that and with the T2s, and whether the T2s "survive" midgame depends on what units they are. No matter what you go for, the fighting units probably won't, since there are good upgrades everywhere along the way. For the rest? T2s are ok, with some having "issues", but individually, while the supports are generally not supportive enough for my liking, as their general issue.
 
I am also split on the new adjacency system that pulls in 3 stacks into combat. I liked it at first, but after a while it reduces combat basically to building 3-doom stacks that roll over everything. And in such large battles tier 1 units become even more useless since they are easily one-shot.
This is a big one for the tier system. You can't swam anything. Maybe early game and infestations, but after a bit everyone has at least 3 stacks and the same amount of higher tier units it simply better than the same amount of lower tier units.

I get that there's probably technical and usability issues that prevent them from adding more stacks to battles, but I wish there was some way that we could really do the 'swarm' thing, as in building a ton of T1 units is a viable strategy (with relevant upgrades). Maybe with support or relevant heroes, but I'd love if it was at least possible. Currently it's just not viable in any way. Throwing multiple stacks of low tiers units against higher tier units is mostly useless, as you lose the battle (obviously) then your army starts routing and it snowballs, making you do hardly any damage. Doesn't really matter how many times you throw low tier stacks at high tier stacks.
 
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You know that it's completely nonsensical to have a T1 that elevates T2s to T3s right? Because - why waste time with T3s when your T2s already are as good?
That has nothing to do with balance at all, that's just complete nonsense, because that means you make what is in essence a T3 available right away.
Unit stats progress in the following way between tiers (some exceptions do exist):
  • T1 > T2 = +1 DEF/RES, +10 HP
  • T2 > T3 = +1 DEF/RES, +20 HP, +3 Status RES
  • T3 > T4 = +1 DEF/RES, +20 HP, +4 Status RES
This without including any new abilities or passives that the units receive. Especially between T1 and T2.
Not to mention that the base damage on everything a unit does will increase by 10-20% between tiers.

Tome of the Horde currently pretty much turns your T1 units into T2, trading 5 HP for 2 Status RES.
But it still doesn't grant you an increase in damage or extra abilities/passives. Which is pretty massive.
i.e. Arcanist deals 9 damage per hit, that's it. Pyromancer deals 8+Burning and has a 16 DMG AoE.
Or let's take Fury vs Zephyr Archer. 10 DMG+Frenzy vs 14 DMG and a 34 DMG AoE with 50% splash.

Making it affect T2 units does not even come close to making up for the stats and abilities that T3 units gain.
I actually decided to make it grant +10 HP now. If you invest into Tome of the Horde, there should be a pay off.

So what if I can skip T2 units and use my beefy T1s? In 18v18 they'll still lose against a proper T2 army.
And my T2 units will still be 10 HP and 1 Status RES behind T3, as well as lacking damage and abilities.

If you manage to get Hero of the Meek too, then T1 will clap T2 units combined with Tome of the Horde.
And in my mod I made it apply to T2 as well, so they could put up a decent fight vs T3 units if you have both.
That's why I would not advocate for even more ways to buff low tier units. Except for this specific one:

1714832666780.png


For reference, in vanilla you get +1 DMG per unit tier of the opponent and it only works on T1 units.
So you can deal +2/3/4/5 damage. My version deals +2/4 damage, but it scales up a lot faster.
 
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This is a big one for the tier system. You can't swam anything. Maybe early game and infestations, but after a bit everyone has at least 3 stacks and the same amount of higher tier units it simply better than the same amount of lower tier units.

I get that there's probably technical and usability issues that prevent them from adding more stacks to battles, but I wish there was some way that we could really do the 'swarm' thing, as in building a ton of T1 units is a viable strategy (with relevant upgrades). Maybe with support or relevant heroes, but I'd love if it was at least possible. Currently it's just not viable in any way. Throwing multiple stacks of low tiers units against higher tier units is mostly useless, as you lose the battle (obviously) then your army starts routing and it snowballs, making you do hardly any damage. Doesn't really matter how many times you throw low tier stacks at high tier stacks.
Earlier games used to have 7 stacks in combat, so you could literally just bring an extra stack and have a 4v3 battle.
It also required specific positioning, since the reinforcement rule did not exist. I don't agree with removing it tbh.

But yes, swarming in AoW 4 is entirely invalid. Which is why Necromancy sucks and low tier units suck as well.
This is also why the new combat morale system is ridiculous and should be nerfed. The snowball is insane.

Triumph's excuse is that they want to make the battles end faster... Bro, play auto combat if you don't want to fight.
People generally play manual combat because they enjoy the battles, stop making it snowball after like 5 kills.

We've been playing with this version for a while now (had it nerfed to 50% before) and it feels entirely fine to all of us.
You could argue that the critical and flanking penalties can be re-enabled at lower values. But they already punish you.

1714833835384.png
 
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Triumph's excuse is that they want to make the battles end faster...
It's a valid reason imho. It's pretty boring to do cleanup after you know you've already won.
I do think it goes a bit fast at times, while early on it doesn't do anything much.

Your numbers look like it might be ok. I think the flanking makes some sense to have. The critical hit one not so much. I get why they did the 66% army lost (probably to finish the fight when you're almost dead) but I'm not sure it has the desired effect. It can seem pretty arbitrary at times. Like both sides lost some units, one a little more than the other and then suddenly one side takes a big morale hit...

Do you still get routing units with your numbers? I do think that's important as there are a few game mechanics that give bonuses or only work with low morale and/or routing units.
 
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For reference, in vanilla you get +1 DMG per unit tier of the opponent and it only works on T1 units.
IMHO it's not worth getting. +4 damage on a shitty base is still shit. It's hardly better than the plain +4/-2 damage modifiers and only applies to units that already need a big boost to be relevant.
 
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But yes, swarming in AoW 4 is entirely invalid. Which is why Necromancy sucks and low tier units suck as well.
This is also why the new combat morale system is ridiculous and should be nerfed. The snowball is insane.
nalties can be re-enabled at lower values. But they already punish you.

Well, swarming works well up until you reach the point where the enemy have three stacks of good stuff.

The real problem is the six stack unit lineup, they should have stuck with eight per stack.
 
You are mixing two different things here. In this thread, as the title says, the problem is "mono-stacking" and, as a supposed reason for that, "enchantment stacking". And OP comes from MP, not SP.
T1 units are not in any way up to debate here. What is are the T2s gaining from Tome of the Horde and Mighty Meek-
Ou, you mean unintentionally derailed this thread, then yeah guilty but at the same time it could be said topic evolved organically and I was just a tiny part of it. (but regardless tiny or not I am sorry that I derailed the thread it was not intentional)
And what do you mean T1 aren't on debate here you said "Otherwise, when you have just a strong core army? T1, T2 - who cares?", if you didn't mean to say T1s there then yeah I misunderstood you.

Now, T2 - about half of the T2 units, bot cultural and Tomes, are ... Support units. As I've been mentioning a couple thousand times now, Support units are no battlers. They usually have a single magical attack (so they can keep the distance) and supportive abilities. There are virtually NUMEROUS ways to increase their survivability (increasing HPs), but they actually LACK IN SUPPORTIVE CAPABILITY. You don't fix supports (note that OP claims everything is alright with them) by making them T3s from the getgo (you'd still prefer T2s with more fighting nous). Supports simply need better support abilities that make you want USING them.
What that will do is make T2 supports closer to T3 supports in EHP, meaning you will still want Skald (T3) for it songs and Chaplain (T2) for it Prayer and Faithful (that have synergies with other stuff). Why do you bring support in the first place, I would argue for their support abilities meaning buffing their EHP won't make them worse supports what it will give player is more choice between said supports.

Then there are the ranged T2s: Fury as a cultural unit which becomes mounted if you pick the trait, Afflictor, which is pretty good due to their great one-shot ability in addition to their regular attack (is in Alchemy T1 Tome), and lastly the houndmaster, which summons an additional unit as help (Tome of the Horde). They are good as well. You can basically use them right away, but keep in mind, if you research these as your second Tome (Zeal first), your third tome may simple make them obsolete (Winds or Glades). I think, as I said, the problem here is that the peak of ranged units is available too early (as early as your third tome). They both should go to a T3, giving the lower tier Archer types more time to shine.
If you want to compare Fury (T2) vs Zephyr (T3) or Glade Runner (T3) even if you make their EHP same across the board what that will do is add one more choice for the player.
  • A culture specific unit with more alpha and optional mount (if form points were invested)
  • The longest range archer (that is not culture specific) - my understanding it is regarded as good in SP but not so much in MP
  • A debuff archer with it Tracker's Mark and optional mount (that is not culture specific)
It is just more choices that player can make when it comes to units.

Now if you are saying that archer damage can be buffed to high heavens with enchantments then yeah we agree, but that is more of the uncapped damage problem that unlimited enchantments contribute to and not tier or unit class problem. (buffing low tiers EHP won't solve or break that)

Then we have Battle Mages, acouple of them, Warlock is cultural, then a handful of Tome BMs, White Witch Pyromancer, Lightbringer and Evoker, I think, with Lightbringer being available in a T2 tome. I have no idea how the AI handles them (specifically) in combat, but Lightbringers DO try to convert. Did someone ever try to mass them? We have the Watcher as a T3 which is pretty good, imo, when we talk Battle Mages, then Banshee, plus Transmuter and Chaos Eater as T4s. BMs are debatable, but here I would also say that the problem, if there is any, comes with their magic ability(ies) and their availability, if anything. An early BM like Warlock, Pyro, Witch are not wrong, if you go that way, and the Watcher "upgrade", but I'm not sure the Scrying Tome is really a good pick except for that Watcher - making the T2s better would make this an even weaker pick.
With battle mages without going in to all permutations comparing all the units that you listed here are two examples:
Evoker (T2) and Wathcer (T3)
  • One is more generic with optional mount and gold economy adjacent
  • Another is a summon with stun plus mark and mana economy adjacent
Lightbringer (T2) and Awakener (T3)
  • One is control mage (hardly a mage and more of a control unit with magic attack) / mana economy / summon
  • Another is culture specific AoE debuffer with optional mount / gold economy
So again raising the EHP for lower tiers will just give player more options of units in the end.

and AI handles Lighbringers the same way as everything else, it rushes them to use mind control in to the enemy face and they die on the enemy turn.

Lastly - units are meant to die in battles. I know, you try to minimize losses, but there is nothing wrong with a T1 dying in some autocombat and being replaced with a T2 or T3 or T4 or T5. It's the way things go. Lebkuchenhausmeister made a good point which is my point about the 100 units achievement in AoW 3 from a different angle. Being able to play the game with three doom stacks is, what sucks. If you had to mobilize the stuff you had to in AoW 3 things would look a lot different with usefulness.
Yeap agree no one said anything about units shouldn't be dying, but there is a big distinction about unit dying vs get deleted with a one tap.
And yeah Leb made a good point, my suspicion it was done 'cause of the visuals for lower-end machines but it could be devs were trying to solve multi-stack cumbersomeness this way and be more casual friendly. (could be both actually)

.... while the supports are generally not supportive enough for my liking, as their general issue.
Huh, really what are your main issues with supports?

...

We've been playing with this version for a while now (had it nerfed to 50% before) and it feels entirely fine to all of us.
You could argue that the critical and flanking penalties can be re-enabled at lower values. But they already punish you.
...
Baked in Cold Blooded is too much imo, and yes I think it was my argument about critical and flanking should be on when you posted this.
 
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I don't think talking about unit tier is derailing the thread, it's we figuring out the actual issue.

We came in with a conjecture of lowering enchantments = more unit diversity, but i feel it's the wrong conclusion, which i detailed on the points i already posted here.

The actual problem IMO is how the unit tiers are interacting with each other.

In MP, T2 does not exist, you get 3 to 4 T3 to use, T4 and T5 is mostly mystics that came in way too late, so late that you already have your build going, and they seem weak in comparison as they don't help your build, they are just power, for this reason, you do not want to stop your build to pick new tomes to be able to use those units anymore.

Plus, considering that MP end before tome 5, you get 4 actual tomes of good units at best.

So i will repeat once more, introducing enchantment limits will certainly change the game, but it will not fix this issue. This issue can only be fixed when you actually look at the units as roles and not just as power budgets.

I like that we talked about Mystics purposes and now T1, T2 to see how utterly worthless they are in the grand picture, once you introduce enchantment limits you may think it will help to fix it, but you are just beating around the bush while introducing a whole new mechanic that will have weird consequences for most other people's game.

And thinking in comparison with Planetfall that had a very good array of options and viability to lower tiers, it's not just because of their enchantment system worked so differently, but the units had clear roles and abilities (even the chaft with the grenades and stagger were always useful), the removal of hex proximity for combat aka the 4x3, the way Tech functions in this game, introducing morale, all this is working together to make the game work as it does.
 
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Unit stats progress in the following way between tiers (some exceptions do exist):
  • T1 > T2 = +1 DEF/RES, +10 HP
  • T2 > T3 = +1 DEF/RES, +20 HP, +3 Status RES
  • T3 > T4 = +1 DEF/RES, +20 HP, +4 Status RES
This without including any new abilities or passives that the units receive. Especially between T1 and T2.
Not to mention that the base damage on everything a unit does will increase by 10-20% between tiers.
........
Look, the decision is do you pick Tome of the Horde and buff T1s (you need that specidic Tome) OR do you pick ANOTHER tome INSTEAD (which may involve an enchantment) that will boosr your T2s which you will pick asap, since you DIDN'T pick Tome of the Horde. If Tome of the Horde instead boosts T2s as well it obviously makes that Tome BETTER because your T2s profit as well. So if you are inclined to pick TotH, making it better will make your inclination that much stronger. You don't lose anything picking it, it's a logical pick - which clearly isn't good when you look at tome balance.
That's all that's important here.

@ Kitschy

The game is not about making each option equally valid. Instead it makes sense that later tomes and higher tier units are better than earlier tomes and lower tier units. A T2 isn't supposed to be as good as a T3, because if it is - why bother? Everything must be useful at some point otherwise it's redundant. So if you generally increase the usefulness of ALL T2s, you make the weaker T3s (the unsspectacular ones that are no upgrade to the boosted T2) useless because you van have a T2 earlier in general than a T3 and the T2 is cheaper in upkeep and buying price.

For Supports:
1) Supports support other units, that is, they are making them better: deadlier, more durable, faster, wwhatever.
2) They are no combat units, that is, their combat values should be the worst of all units: a support should be weaker in attack than a Battle Mage and that is more than obvious.
3) The general rule is, you should WANT to have ONE support unit in each of your stacks, so a Support must make up in support value for a stack what a combat unit could bring. So if a Support units gives 2 Bolstering of damage to the units adjacent to it, for example, (as an active ability and in it's most basic form for 2 turn) that +20% damage for 5 units makes up for the missing combat unit and in the 2nd turn the unit has a free attack, so the stack is better than a stack with 6 combat units.
4) We have no T1 supports. The lowest level are T2s. Now look at a T2, say the Chaplain (and compare it with a T2 Battle Mage, say, the Evoker). Let's start with the latter: The Evoker has an all action point 15 strength attack with a range of 6 jumping to two more targets and has an Electrifying chance. He also has a base attack of 10 Lightning for one action point each for a max of 3 attacks. The Chaplain has a range 4 16 strength single attack (definitely weaker than the BMs attack), they have healing Prayer (Heals 30 HP and cleanses all negative status effects) with a 2 turn cooldown, Bless (1 turn cooldown), giving one unit +20% damage, 2 Fortune and 2 Resistance and Warding extends to adjacent units with +3 status res and +3 Res).
Healing Prayer MAY be useful in certain situations, especially with units that lose damage with reduced HPs and against units that inflict negative mods - but it's only ONE unit that profits; ONE. Same with Bless. ONE unit profits (which is obviously not enough): You use Bless first turn; seconmd turn you shoot. Third turn you heal. Then you may Bless again or shoot.
Imo, this should be different - you don't hev the Support unit in your army because of your shooting attack. You should be able to boost more than one unit, and you should be able to cleanse and heal more than one unit. The shot should be the last resort and should have a positive effect for target-adjacent friendly units.

You should have a very good reason to include a unit class in your army.
 
The game is not about making each option equally valid. Instead it makes sense that later tomes and higher tier units are better than earlier tomes and lower tier units. A T2 isn't supposed to be as good as a T3, because if it is - why bother? Everything must be useful at some point otherwise it's redundant. So if you generally increase the usefulness of ALL T2s, you make the weaker T3s (the unsspectacular ones that are no upgrade to the boosted T2) useless because you van have a T2 earlier in general than a T3 and the T2 is cheaper in upkeep and buying price.

For Supports:
1) Supports support other units, that is, they are making them better: deadlier, more durable, faster, wwhatever.
2) They are no combat units, that is, their combat values should be the worst of all units: a support should be weaker in attack than a Battle Mage and that is more than obvious.
3) The general rule is, you should WANT to have ONE support unit in each of your stacks, so a Support must make up in support value for a stack what a combat unit could bring. So if a Support units gives 2 Bolstering of damage to the units adjacent to it, for example, (as an active ability and in it's most basic form for 2 turn) that +20% damage for 5 units makes up for the missing combat unit and in the 2nd turn the unit has a free attack, so the stack is better than a stack with 6 combat units.
4) We have no T1 supports. The lowest level are T2s. Now look at a T2, say the Chaplain (and compare it with a T2 Battle Mage, say, the Evoker). Let's start with the latter: The Evoker has an all action point 15 strength attack with a range of 6 jumping to two more targets and has an Electrifying chance. He also has a base attack of 10 Lightning for one action point each for a max of 3 attacks. The Chaplain has a range 4 16 strength single attack (definitely weaker than the BMs attack), they have healing Prayer (Heals 30 HP and cleanses all negative status effects) with a 2 turn cooldown, Bless (1 turn cooldown), giving one unit +20% damage, 2 Fortune and 2 Resistance and Warding extends to adjacent units with +3 status res and +3 Res).
Healing Prayer MAY be useful in certain situations, especially with units that lose damage with reduced HPs and against units that inflict negative mods - but it's only ONE unit that profits; ONE. Same with Bless. ONE unit profits (which is obviously not enough): You use Bless first turn; seconmd turn you shoot. Third turn you heal. Then you may Bless again or shoot.
Imo, this should be different - you don't hev the Support unit in your army because of your shooting attack. You should be able to boost more than one unit, and you should be able to cleanse and heal more than one unit. The shot should be the last resort and should have a positive effect for target-adjacent friendly units.

You should have a very good reason to include a unit class in your army.
I don't think it would make them equally valid instead it would make them more useful in different situations. Same with "as good", they won't be as good just viable.
I'm not sure I follow can you make an example of T3 that will become useless in comparison to T2 with buffed EHP?

On Supports:
1. Yes
2. Agree
3. Isn't it a bit reductive to equate all supports just to damage buff role, like outlasting could be as powerful or control.
4. Probably for a good reason we don't have a T1 support, especially in a tier system that we have now like what purpose they will even serve.
On Chaplain your argument is that he is not useful enough as a support because he is a single target support. (and yes, but it is a T2 support, multi-unit supports are T3s)

So your argument is a bit confusing, on one hand you are strong proponent of tier vertical balancing and on the other you want T2 supports to have the same viability as T3 supports. (I don't get it)
 
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I don't think it would make them equally valid instead it would make them more useful in different situations. Same with "as good", they won't be as good just viable.
I'm not sure I follow can you make an example of T3 that will become useless in comparison to T2 with buffed EHP?

On Supports:
1. Yes
2. Agree
3. Isn't it a bit reductive to equate all supports just to damage buff role, like outlasting could be as powerful or control.
4. Probably for a good reason we don't have a T1 support, especially in a tier system that we have now like what purpose they will even serve.
On Chaplain your argument is that he is not useful enough as a support because he is a single target support. (and yes, but it is a T2 support, multi-unit supports are T3s)

So your argument is a bit confusing, on one hand you are strong proponent of tier vertical balancing and on the other you want T2 supports to have the same viability as T3 supports. (I don't get it)
One point isn't that T2s are getting better, the main point is that TotH is getting better (and becomes more of a no-brainer to take). That T2s get better with a tome u can pick as your first doesn't make sense either - the Tome betters T1s, but now it betters T2s as well, so why go for a T1 at all at that point? Plus, since T2s are earlier than T3s (the 2nd point), making them better right away, umm, postpones the necessity for T3 - you will go for the good T2s EASILY while onle needing the good T3s, or: it's now the good T2s that gain another advantage over the not so good T3.

For 3. Yeah sure, it's reductive (and unnecessary). It's just a measure aof what a support - the WEAKEST support which is a T2 - must be worth to be worth being included. It's an easy measure. The MINIMUM gain is +20% damage for the other 5 units of your stacks with your turn, equalling 100% or that unit. That can be different. Summoning a unit is actually doing the job (combined with a healing ability).

On 4. The logical conslusion is, if that's the minimum for a support (T2), then a T3 must offer MORE, that is, BETTER support for potentially 5 units, like, the equilvalent of 30% more damage for them.

I mean, think about it. Think about what a T2 support does in AoW 3.
 
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It's a valid reason imho. It's pretty boring to do cleanup after you know you've already won.
I do think it goes a bit fast at times, while early on it doesn't do anything much.

Your numbers look like it might be ok. I think the flanking makes some sense to have. The critical hit one not so much. I get why they did the 66% army lost (probably to finish the fight when you're almost dead) but I'm not sure it has the desired effect. It can seem pretty arbitrary at times. Like both sides lost some units, one a little more than the other and then suddenly one side takes a big morale hit...

Do you still get routing units with your numbers? I do think that's important as there are a few game mechanics that give bonuses or only work with low morale and/or routing units.
Routing only happens when the battle is entirely one-sided or someone has focused on playing with a Morale build.
I think this is fine, you should invest into lowering your opponent's morale to reap the rewards from such mechanics.

That actually makes stuff like Tome of the Doomherald and Tome of Subjugation feel better (as I did not nerf their flat values).

IMHO it's not worth getting. +4 damage on a shitty base is still shit. It's hardly better than the plain +4/-2 damage modifiers and only applies to units that already need a big boost to be relevant.
I disagree. And I will back this up with math to show that it is not nearly as bad as you might think.
I will concede that Tome of the Beacon itself is bad, but it has been buffed in my mod in general.
  • Archer has 10 DMG, 45 HP and 0 DEF/RES/Status RES.
  • Fury has 10 DMG, 55 HP, 1 DEF/RES and 0 Status RES
    • Additionally it has Frenzy
  • Afflictor has 12 DMG, 65 HP, 1 DEF/RES and 4 Status RES (idk why)
    • Additionally it has Miasma Shot
  • Glade Runner has 14 DMG, 85 HP, 2 DEF/RES and 3 Status RES
    • Additionally it has Tracker's Mark and Truesight
First of all, Archer and Fury should get +10 HP, Fury should get +2 DMG and Afflictor needs to lose the Status RES.
But those balance issues aside, I will now compare the buffed units to the Glade Runner (whom cannot get said buffs).

With Battle Seeker Training and Mighty Meek as in my mod (and the unit versions from my mod):
  • Archer has 14 DMG, 65 HP, 1 DEF/RES and 2 Status RES vs T3+
  • Fury has 14 DMG, 75 HP, 2 DEF/RES and 2 Status RES vs T3, also 16 DMG vs T4+
  • Afflictor has 14 DMG, 75 HP, 2 DEF/RES and 2 Status RES vs T3, also 16 DMG vs T4+
Most importantly, they gain 4 or 2 Spirit Damage, not Physical. This matters more than you may think.
These are their combat stats purely with Battle Seeker Training and Mighty Meek. Without other buffs.

You also need to keep in mind these units are faster and cheaper to recruit and 2 of them don't require specific tomes.
But let's be real here, Tome of Alchemy is a great tome regardless. The same holds true for Evocation or Cryomancy.
There are no other tome T2 units worth mentioning, as they are all either Support or just entirely trash to begin with.

Well, swarming works well up until you reach the point where the enemy have three stacks of good stuff.

The real problem is the six stack unit lineup, they should have stuck with eight per stack.
I agree that 8 unit stacks were much better. Sadly this was removed from the game back in AoW III.

Look, the decision is do you pick Tome of the Horde and buff T1s (you need that specidic Tome) OR do you pick ANOTHER tome INSTEAD (which may involve an enchantment) that will boosr your T2s which you will pick asap, since you DIDN'T pick Tome of the Horde. If Tome of the Horde instead boosts T2s as well it obviously makes that Tome BETTER because your T2s profit as well. So if you are inclined to pick TotH, making it better will make your inclination that much stronger. You don't lose anything picking it, it's a logical pick - which clearly isn't good when you look at tome balance.
That's all that's important here.
Would you believe that the tome is still not picked very often even when it affects T2 units?
Yeah. You overestimate how good it is and underestimate how quickly T3 units can be recruited.
 
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There are no other tome T2 units worth mentioning, as they are all either Support or just entirely trash to begin with.
Aaand there is the thing you should address. You know, trash to begin with or support trash. But, hey, supports are fine, right?

You don't seem to get that a unit that comes later because you canbnot have/research it earlier, MUST be better than an earlier unit, because if it wasn't it was automatically worse.
 
On 4. The logical conslusion is, if that's the minimum for a support (T2), then a T3 must offer MORE, that is, BETTER support for potentially 5 units, like, the equilvalent of 30% more damage for them.

I mean, think about it. Think about what a T2 support does in AoW 3.
You do understand that Soother, Bannerman, War Shaman, Nymph, old Skald and Druid of the Cycle are good units, right?
I mean, you probably don't. Otherwise you wouldn't be complaining about Supports so often in huge posts.

Chaplain, Necromancer, Sun Priest, Steelshaper, Overseer and Animist are bad. What do they have in common? They're single target.
If you think Druid of the Cycle is bad you've never played it with the correct combination of units to properly use it.

Single target Support units just don't work unless they are massively overloaded or have some kind of army passive.
 
I disagree. And I will back this up with math to show that it is not nearly as bad as you might think.
I think you forgot to show how it is not bad. I don't care too much about other things you can get for T1 (in your mod or otherwise). Just that enchantment is not that useful imho. Against T1 you get +1 damage bonus, T2 +2 etc. So while that might not be terrible compared to other enchantments, it's still worse than for example Bloodfury weapons when fighting T1/T2. It becomes more worthwhile when fighting T3/T4, but only a little. And this only applies to your shitty T1 units, who will die like flies in a fight with T3/T4 units, especially if those T3/T4 units also have enchantments (and they will).
So I'd prefer something like Bloodfury weapons that gives me +2 physical damage on all melee units rather than only boosting my T1 units a little more than that IF they fight units they have no chance of winning against anyway. I just don't see in what situation this would give me an edge.

In your mod it also applies to T2, so it's a lot stronger already because it applies to twice as many units and T2 units are already more useful than T1. Plus you scale earlier to +4 damage, so you do gain a bit of an advantage early on over other enchantments early on. But is still doesn't make me want to bring T1/T2 units to a fight with high tier units.
With Battle Seeker Training and Mighty Meek as in my mod (and the unit versions from my mod):
  • Archer has 14 DMG, 65 HP, 1 DEF/RES and 2 Status RES vs T3+
So with all that the archer finally does the same amount of damage as an unenchanted T3 ranged unit (the glade runner) but it's quite a bit worse in the other stats and only does that damage vs T3+. I don't see how it becomes viable to bring it to a fight.

I'd rather have inquisitors mark tbh, even on those T1 archers.

Fury has 14 DMG, 75 HP, 2 DEF/RES and 2 Status RES vs T3, also 16 DMG vs T4+
How does it get to 16 damage? It starts out with 10?
 
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