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Senator Gradenigo, I am well aware of your disgrace, and I must confess that I contributed to it, since we faced each other in the field of battle, in that friendly Franco-Spanish competition.

However, I can say that you are a man of honor, and as such I am happy that we are now both on the side of Venice.

As the Doge, I have nothing to say about an alliance with Hungary. Just point out that Poland is in the process of conquering several of the Ottoman European provinces, so I foresee future Polish-Hungarian conflicts.
 
Thanks for the report.
I have followed with interest the debate whether we should change alliance or not. I'm yet undecided. Does Hungary claim any of our provinces? In that case it might prove difficult to maintain good relations. If we could make Spain break vasslaage to Genoa it might be worht a declaration of war on them, later. What really trouble me right now is that our stability cost have more than doubled from 810d to 1992d, due to our bad reputation and many muslim provinces. That's the problem we senators have to think of right now, and for many years. Our doge has to organise armies of priests, and forget about using his soldiers for some time!

Aureo Barbarigo
 
Vendramin.gif


Matteo Vendramin​

Doge and senators!

I agree with esteemed Barbarigo that thought should be taken of converting the heathens to true faith. As we are now regarded as malevolent land-grabbers that are not to be trusted, I think that we need to enter a period of peace and rebuilding that should rid us of that ill repute. Colonial wars might not be that far away, and we should try to enter them unblemished.

After this period of absence, it was the sight of my seat in the senate that really gave me the feeling that I have finally returned home.
 
The noise fills the Sala del Senato, as a multitude of senators exchange salutations after the interruption of the sessions during the month of August. There is satisfaction in the faces. Besides the needed rest, the Republic of Venice is stronger than ever, having emerged triumphant from the last wars. Despite political diferences, the senators of Venice share a sense that a glorious destiny rest in their hands. Like the old Roman Republicans, they have been forced by circumstances to take control of foreign lands, and now they find themselves with an empire in their hands that requires their best efforts to administrate.

When he considers that the senators have had enough time to salute each other, the Speaker raises his voice, and the noise of conversations dies off.

Senators of the Serenissima Repubblica,

Today we inaugurate the second season with a speak from our noble Doge about the state of the nation. Alvise Mocenigo, the first of that name, is our 85th Doge, elected in 1570, during the difficult circumstances of our War of Cyprus. Cavaliere and Procuratore di San Marco, he was also ambassador at the court of our ally, Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor and King of Spain. He has directed our nation during our successful war against Sultan Selim, definitively defeated at the glorious battle of Lepanto by our hero Agostino Barbarigo, and in the war against Maximilian of Austria, that ended when Savorgnano conquered Tyrol for Venice.

Without any further introduction, I leave you with our Doge.

Dear senators,

It is not my intention to rest in the laurels of triumph for our recent victories. We are hear to briefly review the situation of our Republic to better prepare our senators for the coming elections.

Our Republic is growing fast, perhaps too fast and we face problems due to that. We have now five provinces in Egypt, and one colony in West Africa (Louga). We have incorporated Tyrol, with its rich mines of gold, and we also have a trading post in India (Kerala). Lets start then with the economy:

Tax Income: These are the good news, our income might raise more than our expenses. Egypt is quite rich, the gold of Tyrol will be very welcomed, and Kerala is the promise of a comercial emporium in the land of spices. By contrast, Louga might not turn a good return, but its strategic value for our fleets could compensate its expenses.

Trade: Our merchants have suffered the consequences of our prolonged wars. We have lost 10 merchants in the last decade, despite our best efforts to finance their expeditions. However, there are also good news in this department, as our Secretary of Commerce has promised us that in about three years, the level of efficiency of our merchants will be raised (level 7) due to our strong investments in this area (65%).

Inflation: Despite the help from our Provedittores (Governors in all provinces), we are still at 12% inflation due to our minting during the war. Since we are likely to need funds for structural reforms, our inflation will only slowly go down.

Manufactories: Our last manufactory was built in 1495, 80 years ago. We are really falling behind in this department, as we only have three refineries.

Lets now focus on the government of our subjects:

Religion: The Orthodox faith has been eradicated from our Republic, however we have now five Muslim provinces instead. Tolerance to Muslims has been turned to maximum to reduce their discontent. We also have some tolerance to Orthodox because our vassal Theodoros is of that religion.

Stability: This is clearly one of our main problems. Stability is always a concern in big nations, but in our case it is further enhance by our Muslim provinces and by our low international reputation (27.3/42, well above 50% cut-off for cheap stability).

There are three solutions to this problem: Convert the Muslims in Egypt by expending huge amounts of money in financing the Christian Copts that could gain converts, having good behavior for the next decade or two, and building one or more Fine Arts Academies. Regarding the first solution, I am an able administrator (7), but I am quite old and might not last long.

1574Egypt.jpg

We will follow with a review of our military capability:

Army: It has always been our Achilles heel. However we have finally developed an efficient army. Its quality is outstanding (bonus to fire), and its siege capability unmatched (bonus to siege, penalty to shock). We have significant numbers of modern artillery. We can support 103,000 men (110k probably in a little while), and we have that number of soldiers. They are leaded by our good Giulio Savorgnano (3,2,3,1). We can rest assured that our troops can defend our lands.

Navy: By contrast, our navy has suffered important loses at the battle of Lepanto, despite our victory. 11 expensive warships were sunk. Almost 40% of our oceanic fleet, for a total cost of 500 ducats. By comparison, we only lost 4 cheap galleys of which we have lots. Yes, I know that the Ottoman navy was erased from the surface of the seas, but that is little consolation to our empty coffers. We need lots of warships. Not 11, but 20 or 30. We must dominate the seas to establish a world wide commercial emporium, and protect our investments in India.

And finally the most important international situation, where decisive choices must be made.

Let's start with our vassals. Theodoros presents no problems. They are of Greek culture and very affect to our Republic, on due time (vassal since 1566, 8 years ago), the senate will decide if they are invited into our Republic. Papal States is our vassal, but the Pope abhors us. This is a stable situation since his Holiness is afraid of breaking vassalage, but incorporating his states into our Republic would enormously anger the Catholic world. Bulgaria does not want to be our vassal. They were given independence by us from the Turkish yoke, because they have different culture, different religion and a not so rich province. But since they have a permanent claim on Macedonia, our relationship deteriorated to the point that they refused to help us against the Turks. Like the Pope they are unlikely to break their vassalage. We should eventually decide if we should continue ignoring them, as we do with the Pope, or if we should absorbe them into our Republic.

Now with our allies, Spain and Theodoros. We have very good relationship with Spain, but many claim that their usefulness is past since the once fearful Franco-Burgundian alliance entered a profound crisis that is likely to last a few more decades. Spain holds Italian lands (Sicily and Messina), to which we are entitled, and the Spanish king is the suzerain of our eternal bitter rival Genoa. Some have devised a devious plan to engage Spain in a war against her vassal, to which we have a permanent casus belli, to vassalize Genoa ourselves. However this plan has a serious obstacle, the 35,000 Genoese troops sitting in Corsica, and unable to come out, since Genoa lost her fleet long time ago. I must also stress that Spain has been a loyal ally, that has participated in wars far away from her areas of interest, even if her efficiency can be questioned.

Finally our potential enemies/allies. The Austro-Bavarian alliance in the North is now licking her wounds. Tirol is now our Northern border, and perhaps it would be wise to fortify it. I am not a great friend of fortifications, as they often turn against their owner, but in the case of Tirol, with its low supply limit, and harsh winters, it could prove a bastion to dissolve enemy armies.

The Hungarians are on their own. There always have been hatred between them and us for the possession of Dalmatia, that was recovered by us in 1419. Perhaps it is time to overcome that hatred with expensive gifts, or perhaps not. If they choose to enter an alliance with the Austrians or the Poles, that could be bad news to us.

The Poles and their alliance of Northern countries (Brandenburg, Denmark and Courland) is completed by two interesting members. The Knights of Rhodes, sitting on a Greek island, have managed to conquer the province of Cyrenaica before being forced to turn Tripolitania (a Spanish present) to the Ottomans. They are therefore susceptible to diplo-annexion if force vassalized. The other ally of Poland is Portugal, our new commercial rival after the decadence of Genoa, that stole the spice trade from us when they navigated around Africa. Zygmunt August of Poland, who also hates us with passion (who doesn't?), is taking a shameful advantage of our victory over Selim, and right now has conquered Sochi, Bujak and Dobrudja, and has under siege simultaneously Rumelia, Serbia, Wallachia and Transylvania. They are already our neighbor, but they might establish a strong presence in the Balkans, and enter into conflict with us and the Hungarians.

The Ottomans have been finally defeated in a decisive way. After being crushed by us, with the loss of Egypt, and the ruin of their North African plans, now comes their likely defeat at the Polish hands, that will probably trimm their European possessions. The Ottoman Empire is on its way to become a second rate Asian nation, and we will be able to pick from their provinces anything that raises our interest.

And with these thoughts, I leave you to debate the issues presented before the coming election. Please forgive me for talking so much, but I felt that a profound update would facilitate the incorporation of old senators and new ones, that are always invited to join.

Your Doge

Mocenigo2.gif
Alvise I Mocenigo, LXXXV Dux Venetiarum. Jul. 1574.
85.jpg
 
Fellow Senators, Respected Doge, Noble Fodoroni,

It is good to be back leading the affairs of state of our beloved Republic.

I have pressing business to attend to, so I will make my remarks brief.

Given our reputation and stability issues, I see our course is clear.

1) Convert the heretics. We should use our able doge to start conversions on those Moslems with a reasonable cost, and lower our innovativeness to maximize spontaneous conversions (OOC: convert everyone but Alexandria, and hope for the best).

2) Focus on colonization and trade. We need to seek our rightful place in the Indies trade. Any wars we start should be colonial, to gain TP's and colonies that don't hurt our reputation.

3) Stay loyal to our ally Spain. They have been loyal to us.

4) In any European war, force vassalize, don't take much land.

Sincerely,

Ernesto II Gandolfi
 
Cornaro_G.gif


So it is true. I did not actually believe you had returned my Doge. As you know we sailed for our lands in Cyprus a day after you left the city. Over the month, my eldest surviving son Brynano and his wife had twins, Carlo III and Christopher. Then, toward the end of the season of celebration, my 24 year old daughter Caterina was wed. So, we have been busy. As I am in my 64th year of life, I was happy to be able to see my very young daughter have such a happy occassion.

But now you are back and I (along with my son Brynano) are here to participate in continuing to lead our powerful Republic. While you were gone, I too recounted the glorious history of our Republic, remembering the wonderful days of my great ancestor Carlo and his son Eduardo leading the charge to acquire Cyprus. I read of our glorious debates over the Balkan lands and how Eduardo and later my father Loganni accepting the will of the Senate to allow those lands to go free. I find it interesting that you would now propose to annex Bulgaria. I would, perhaps not surprisingly, find that a wise move, but am acceeding to the historic position of my ancestors and will only follow the will of the Senate. I read to of the many attacks, both verbal and in person that members of my family worked to end the threat of the Ottomans and I agree with you that obviously the day has come.

And, I read again with interest the powerful leadership of others who demanded and gained for us the Center of Trade in Kerch that my family was certain would be our doom. So far, not yet, though a new danger looms in that sector. And others (mostly Barbarigo) desiring and leading the way for us to acquire the overland route through the Nile to the great spices of India. Since my family history has had no connection there, I eagerly enjoyed our acquisition. I can tell you that the traders in Cyprus were OVERJOYED that the Nile route was finally safe, under our protection. They are hopeful that we will invest resources there, perhaps even a Fine Arts Academy or refinery to improve the journey.

We know we have enemies. We always will. We accept it. Hungary has hated us forever. The Hapsburgs stabbed US in the back and we made them pay, but they will come back. And now we see a potential spectre in the forces of Poland which is growing large, mostly on our OWN work (but I won't tell you that we could have had the Balkan land ourself). :) I doubt diplomacy will work with the barbarians of the north (Austria showed us that), so save our money and our diplomats and keep our military forces strong.

To some of your questions: By all means keep the Spanish unless they become so weak as to be worthless--they have fought by our sides and we will NOT be able to gain entrance to any other alliance of value.

Of course fortify Tyrol!

Of course try to show the dear people of Egypt the true faith, but not at too great of a cost or a low chance. It should not be too hard to keep our tolerance high if need be, at least for now.

And we should invest in building up our provinces with the manufactories that make sense.

Welcome back my friends. Even in my old age, I can see clear enough that our future will be exciting and thrilling. I doubt I will see a "New Venice" in the land of India in my lifetime, but I can still see the potential of that. And I can see us growing rich through trade with our centers of trade.
 
aegandolfi said:
Fellow Senators, Respected Doge, Noble Fodoroni,

It is good to be back leading the affairs of state of our beloved Republic.

I have pressing business to attend to, so I will make my remarks brief.

Given our reputation and stability issues, I see our course is clear.

1) Convert the heretics. We should use our able doge to start conversions on those Moslems with a reasonable cost, and lower our innovativeness to maximize spontaneous conversions (OOC: convert everyone but Alexandria, and hope for the best).

2) Focus on colonization and trade. We need to seek our rightful place in the Indies trade. Any wars we start should be colonial, to gain TP's and colonies that don't hurt our reputation.

3) Stay loyal to our ally Spain. They have been loyal to us.

4) In any European war, force vassalize, don't take much land.

Sincerely,

Ernesto II Gandolfi
Click to expand...

Fellow senators, great doge,

Let me too make some brief remarks. I agree with senator Gandolfi we should convert the heathens in Egypt, though I am afraid converting them all will be costly. (OOC: Agree on Alexandria, but how much will Egypt cost?). I too agree on his urge to let us focus upon colonization and trade. That is why we conquered Egypt in the first place.

Where I differ from senator Gandolfi is in his other remarks. I agree we should remain peaceful, except against Genoa, but if we are attacked we shouldn't refrain from taking the enemy's land. If it's rich land, that is.

And I think we should seek other allies than the Spanish. We need an ally that can help crush our main enemies, the Austrians. They have attacked us again and again, contrary to other countries that some senators see as our main enemies. To counter the Habsburg threat I would advise an alliance with Hungary or Poland. If we manage to get such an alliance we will be invulnerable. We can defeat the navy of any country that dares to attack us and with the help of the Polish or Hungarian armies we should be able to hold of any land-attack.

Furthermore I think our first action should be an attack on Genoa. The Spanish armies can be used to capture Corsica and should they fail our capture of Genoa will convince the Genoese to allow our traders entrance to their city and to give our state some cash as compensation for the bad treatment of our traders.

Seems my remarks weren't as brief as I intended. I apologise for that, but when I think about the treacherous Habsburg bastards and the stubborn Genoese I get carried away sometimes.

And to make a remark I haven't heard for too long;

Genoa delenda est.
 
Miozozny said:
And I think we should seek other allies than the Spanish. We need an ally that can help crush our main enemies, the Austrians. They have attacked us again and again, contrary to other countries that some senators see as our main enemies. To counter the Habsburg threat I would advise an alliance with Hungary or Poland. If we manage to get such an alliance we will be invulnerable. We can defeat the navy of any country that dares to attack us and with the help of the Polish or Hungarian armies we should be able to hold of any land-attack.

Genoa delenda est.
Click to expand...

It would be nice to enter into a Polish alliance, but I do not think there is any way we are going to see them welcome us. Perhaps our diplomats are better than I imagine. Rather than spending that money, though, I would want to see us bettering our provinces and trying to convert where we can. Perhaps, though, you know some in the diplomatic core and thus have better information than I. :)

But I think we should be wary of assuming Austria is our only great enemy. They are, I agree, our enemy and we've been saying that for about 75 years. The Hapsburgs are ambitious. Maybe, though, we have shown them to turn their focus northward rather than towards us.

Finally, it is good to hear the ancient cry, but unless we are prepared to lose our entire army of 100,000, I doubt we will ever get the Genoese off Corsica. They are no threat to us. We don't forget them, but let us be sly and wise and wait for a better moment to come to us. Perhaps in some other way we can see them fall prey to some disease or perhaps to slumber and we can strike then.

Yes, Genoa delenda est, but not now. Let's marshall our resources towards internal improvements. One doesn't know, friends, but our recent growth may have put us into a sphere where others won't attack us lightly (though I agree that barbarians like the Poles may not consider that fact--Kerch may yet again become an issue for us).
 
carlec said:

It would be nice to enter into a Polish alliance, but I do not think there is any way we are going to see them welcome us. Perhaps our diplomats are better than I imagine. Rather than spending that money, though, I would want to see us bettering our provinces and trying to convert where we can. Perhaps, though, you know some in the diplomatic core and thus have better information than I. :)

But I think we should be wary of assuming Austria is our only great enemy. They are, I agree, our enemy and we've been saying that for about 75 years. The Hapsburgs are ambitious. Maybe, though, we have shown them to turn their focus northward rather than towards us.

Finally, it is good to hear the ancient cry, but unless we are prepared to lose our entire army of 100,000, I doubt we will ever get the Genoese off Corsica. They are no threat to us. We don't forget them, but let us be sly and wise and wait for a better moment to come to us. Perhaps in some other way we can see them fall prey to some disease or perhaps to slumber and we can strike then.

Yes, Genoa delenda est, but not now. Let's marshall our resources towards internal improvements. One doesn't know, friends, but our recent growth may have put us into a sphere where others won't attack us lightly (though I agree that barbarians like the Poles may not consider that fact--Kerch may yet again become an issue for us).
Click to expand...

I think the investment for gaining the friendship of the Polish or Hungarian will easily pay off when the Austrians attack again. We could use an ally with a strong army.

And I only used the ancient sentence to remind the other senators of unfinished business.

The war I want us to wage soon need not even have the objective to gain Corsica. If we are very lucky we or the Spanish might be able to take it, but probably not. We will be able to plunder Genoa and convince the Genoese to allow our traders again. And I hope we would gain some money as well.

But to keep reminding everyone of a goal that need not be accomplished in the near future, but that we should never forget:

Genoa delenda est.
 
There were no scheduled elections for this period, however and given the feedback offered by senators after the summer break, I would like to propose the following matters to this noble chamber:

[size=+1]Election 59. Choosing the right alliance for Venice.[/size]

Note that the change of alliance will require significant gifts, as our relations to all but Spain are exactly -200. Also the shift of alliance, if decided, might require some time regarding on conditions such as money and stability, and if they are at war or not, as well as what we decide to do with Theodoros.

1. I believe that the right ally for Venice in these days is:
A. Spain (current)
B. Austria
C. Hungary
D. Poland
E. France
F. Other (specify)
G. None of the big countries

2. Our vassal Theodoros is Orthodox of Greek culture
A. Diploannex as soon as possible (2-3 years from now)
B. Keep as vassal within our alliance for the time being
C. Keep as vassal for the time being but no need to have him as ally

3. Do you support a declaration of war on Genoa to break her vassalization to Spain?
A. Yes
B. Only if we decide to leave the alliance with Spain (last good chance)
C. No
 
I'm still not ready to vote, but was just reviewing the map and info from the Doge. Couple of observations:

Looks like Poland has a full alliance.
Looks like Hungary has no one, so I suppose it is possible that if we dropped out of our alliance (which would mean our vassals too), they might ask us in. I still don't see them accepting an offer from us without TONS of money being spent.
Looks like Poland has a powerful Russia on her border which makes them suspect or at least gives them something else to consider than merely taking Kerch from us.
Taking over Theodoros would certainly eliminate the possibility of them losing it in a war to Poland, Russia or some other nation over there. That would ultimately protect our ability to land troops if Kerch were besieged (we can now through MA, but if Theo went down, then bye-bye reinforcements).

I personally am comfortable in letting the clock run and just fixing up our own house. Except for Austria, I think most have their own hands full with issues and we are strong enough to deter most (not all) from us. But I am still ready to listen to others opinions.
 
It's wonderful to hear the debate again fill up our meeting room. With our bad reputation (high badboy) I think Spain is still a better ally for us. Poland and perhaps to a lesser extent Hungary will drag us into unwanted wars, that we will not be able to profit on. Also, being allied to Spain makes it certain we don't have to fight them, which is worth a lot. I rather see us in a war with Poland than with Spain.

Election 59.
1. A
2. A
3. B
Click to expand...

For the good of Venice
Aureo Barbarigo
 
A little reminder

On the issue of Genoa I wish to remind our trusted senators that if Genoa remains a vassal of spain then spain may wish to diplo-annex her quite soon. However even with this information at our disposal I beleive that the need to improve our reputation, reduce inflation (below 10%), rebuild and reform peacefully (e.g. missionairies and colonists).
I beleive that war on Spain will be inevitable within our childrens lifetime (50 years), Spain holds Italian lands and with the possible diplo-annexation of Genoa it may be an idea to look towards France as an eventual ally as they will tie up many spanish troops while we take Italian land.

With all these factors taken into account my votes are as follows:
Election 59
1.A. (Untill our alliance expires at which point i reccomend looking towards France)
2.A. (Once our alliance with Spain expires it may not be possible to take theodoros into our next alliance so we must annex in order to protect)
3.B. (However I emphasise that we need at least a decade of peace and colonial expansion)


From
Senator Cuthbertus III
 
Thank you for your vote senator Cuthbertus III.

I esentially agree with your analysis, however Spain cannot incorporate Genoa to her territories, since they lack a common land border. Perhaps recovering Liguria from Spanish hands would prove easier, but alas, the Genoese will continue to be a thorn for us.
 
Election 59

A. A. C.
Click to expand...

I believe it is too soon to consider casting off the only country that thinks well of us. If we can improve relations with some other, maybe we change in 10+ years. I wouldn't mind adding Poland to our alliance if an opportunity presents. I think Hungary is a lost cause, and France is too weak to be useful.

As for Genoa, I say leave them be, unless/until that army in Corsica is gone, there is no way to profit from fighting them.

Ernesto II Gandolfi
 
Election 59

1. A
2. A
3. C
Click to expand...
Senators Barbarigo and Gandolfi have said as much as I was thinking, no need to add. Well said wise friends.
 
Code: 
1. D
2. A
3. A

Fellow Senators, Esteemed Doge,

I have to agree with senator Gandolfi that Hungary seems to weak. So I will vote for an alliance with Poland and I urge the other senators to do the same.

There are two reasons why an alliance with Poland is better than an alliance with Spain.

The first is that we are far better equiped for a war against Spain. As long as our fleet is superior to theirs (and our fleet is our best weapon) they cannot touch us, while we can easily conquer Sicily. And should they attack us; isn't Portugal a member of the Polish alliance.
A war against Poland on the other hand will be much harder to end quickly. Sure, they will only get to Kerch, but we will have to fight them on land to get a peacedeal and that is not our major strength. And I shiver when I think of the loss we will suffer when Kerch is plundered year after year.

And while I can think of some Spanish territory that would yield a nice profit for us when conquered I can't think of any Polish territory that's profitable.

The second reason is that Poland will crush the Habsburgs when they attack. In my mind I see hordes of Polish cavalry trample the Habsburg armies, something I have never see the Spanish do. Don't forget, our most dangerous enemy the last decades was Austria.

And this useless wars. Sure we won't profit. But they need not cost us much. Let the Polish fight the Russians if they start a war. A few raiding armies will convince the Russians to make peace with us.

On the question on why to attack Genoa. Senator Gandolfi says we won't profit. Does the senator forget the Genoese have forbidden us to trade there!! Do I have to remind the senator that trade is where our wealth comes from. That it is our main goal! I hope not. And again, I am aware that we shouldn't try to gain Corsica in a war against them. Unless we get a real good opportunity of course.

Genoa delenda est.
 
The issue isn't whether we take Corsica or not in a peace deal, the issue is that unless we send, oh I don't know, about our entire army of 100,000, we WON'T be able to take Corsica in the war. And Corsica is the only land that Genoa has left besides her home province. Thus, to EITHER force-vassal or take land from them, we'd HAVE to conquer Corsica in a battle. While, I guess we can ultimately, the cost would be enormous. Everyone here knows that my family has personally contributed to all of our wars and we never shrink from that responsibility, I can see absolutely NO reason to send 10s of thousands of Venetian young men to the deaths for that silly island. And again, if we don't take the island, then all that will happen after we conquer Genoa itself is them rejecting every peace offer we send and ultimately us just taking ducats. That will do nothing but hurt our reputation further.

Wait on Genoa my friend; ultimately, something else will happen. It so often does in life and world, and somehow, someone else will be in a position to conquer Corsica for us, or at least send 10s of thousands of their young men to their deaths and perhaps take the Genoans with them.

As far as Poland goes, you have a higher estimation of our diplomatic ability than I. And with the 100s, perhaps 1000s of ducats you want to spend there on perhaps a fruitless task and on that might worsen our situation diplomatically around the world, I would rather build a manufactory or build up the needed fortress in Tyrol or try to do something good in the world like convert the misguided around the Nile to the true faith or increase our small colony in India. Do not put too much confidence in the Poles; though they are large now and perhaps would be a tough advesary, there is no guarantee that they can maintain that large empire. They face many enemies around them and they will be in wars which we should care nothing about.
 
carlec said:
The issue isn't whether we take Corsica or not in a peace deal, the issue is that unless we send, oh I don't know, about our entire army of 100,000, we WON'T be able to take Corsica in the war. And Corsica is the only land that Genoa has left besides her home province. Thus, to EITHER force-vassal or take land from them, we'd HAVE to conquer Corsica in a battle. While, I guess we can ultimately, the cost would be enormous. Everyone here knows that my family has personally contributed to all of our wars and we never shrink from that responsibility, I can see absolutely NO reason to send 10s of thousands of Venetian young men to the deaths for that silly island. And again, if we don't take the island, then all that will happen after we conquer Genoa itself is them rejecting every peace offer we send and ultimately us just taking ducats. That will do nothing but hurt our reputation further.

Wait on Genoa my friend; ultimately, something else will happen. It so often does in life and world, and somehow, someone else will be in a position to conquer Corsica for us, or at least send 10s of thousands of their young men to their deaths and perhaps take the Genoans with them.

As far as Poland goes, you have a higher estimation of our diplomatic ability than I. And with the 100s, perhaps 1000s of ducats you want to spend there on perhaps a fruitless task and on that might worsen our situation diplomatically around the world, I would rather build a manufactory or build up the needed fortress in Tyrol or try to do something good in the world like convert the misguided around the Nile to the true faith or increase our small colony in India. Do not put too much confidence in the Poles; though they are large now and perhaps would be a tough advesary, there is no guarantee that they can maintain that large empire. They face many enemies around them and they will be in wars which we should care nothing about.
Click to expand...


I agree there are other investments that we shouldn't keep neglecting (manu's!), but I think the investment in Polish friendship will pay off, considering the arguments I have given. The only thing that I can't predict is the price. If that's indeed as high as you fear, 1000s, then I will agree with you.

On the war with Genoa. Our gains will be money and trade-rights. Both very important.

OOC: And it will end the vassalization with Spain, hopefully getting Genoa in some alliance that will get them in a war, so they will use their stupid soldiers somewhere.
 
The Hapsburg threat

Dear Senators,
I wish to make a further statement on the floor of the senate, I beleive that this republic may be making the wrong choice over our future. I beleive that this chamber has over-estimated the Hapsburg threat. We have already beaten the Hapsburg once, furthermore, the Hapsburgs have not gained control over the Hungarian lands and once we have a decade of peace, reform, rebuilding and a colonial empire behind us they will not stand a chance (unless they unite with Hungary).
The real power in Europe is Spain, they have a vast and growing empire in the new world, they are pushing into ancient French lands and they control all the Mediteranean that isnt ours. They have a Navy which I am told is as strong and numerous as ours if not more so. Currently they are our ally and I am not proposing that we leave our miltary alliance, however I do propose that when our militry alliance expires we do re-enter and instead ally with one of the Spanish rivals e.g. Portuagal, France, Burgundy, Netherlands, England. In the case of Burgundy, they will help us with both the Austrian threat and the Spanish competition.
This conflict with Spain is inevitable because soon enough once our merchants have out competed theirs the Spanish will exclude us from their trading centres. The task of this senate is to ensure that at the moment of conflict we are ready and not in a useless alliance with a Slav barbarian or sleeping giant that only wants us for cannon fodder against the Russians.
For all those that cry at the price of change, I ask what territory do the Hapsburgs have that we want?
The Spanish have rich Italian lands, while the Hapsburgs have poor German land.

We no longer have to see ourselves as the weak man of Europe, we have become a great power equal to Austria, Spain, France, England, Russia, Portugal and the Netherlans and as such we must act like one and not act like a one province pagan minor that some seem to behave as though we are.

Your loyal senator

Cuthbertus III
 
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