Stellaris Army update

[rubert]

Personally I'd like to the current army combat and management to be removed entirely and replaced with some sort of bombardement, invasion and space support situation. Currently smaller planets often surrender when you start to bombard them which makes sense so I'd like that expanded somehow to include bombardement, invasions and eventual surrender (or destruction).

 

[Normannus]

Pretty much just build a fortress world. Shield stops enemy fleets from doing much bombardment damage and then you build fortresses and staff them. Can even build some armies and garrison them there.

Issue is if you are losing ground and they are launching successful invasions, there's a good chance you wont be able to counter attack unless it's an extra long drawn out war like the WiH.

Fortresses do that, a hanger that supports the ground is just another defence army with a different name. For attacking ships that's what the starbase and orbital rings are for and with less cost of key building slots and pops.

Yes, I’m aware that everything I said is theoretically abstracted into current mechanics. But I think it would be interesting to add some more complexity to combat involving planets, which is why I think that things like planetary anti-orbital cannons could be interesting, or planet-based fighter hangers that can find on the planet or in space against enemy fleets. Think like Star Wars, where in a new hope they sortie x-wings from the rebel base planet to attack the Death Star, or in Empire when they have the giant cannon on the snow planet that shoots at the orbiting star destroyers. I know that some people dislike ground combat so they just want to think about it as little as possible, but I think that we should instead be trying to make it more interesting and involved than “bombard planet, drop stack of highest tier army”

 

[rubert]

The Empire is not know for their smart tactics for getting their unescorted Colossus (with guns) destroyed by fighters. Note that the Rebel defenses were space defenses, not ground. The bases were just planet based unlike in Stellaris. Starbases and Orbital rings already have similar function in Stellaris - try how well a colossus or a single titan fares against starbase with fighter bays (I guess the titan might be able to destroy the starbase quickly enough due to the unrealistic system scale in Stellaris).

In case of Hoth admiral Ozzel blundered to the Rebel's sensors so they had time to activate their shield protecting the base - forcing the Empire to invade. The ion cannon didn't stop the invasion and neither it could have stopped possible bombardement, it just allowed the high value troops chance to escape as the Empire was forced to come closer to the planet to support the invasion and intercept ships escaping.

I find it more reasonable ("realistic") that the planet itself is almost impossible to defend by the time spaceside defenses (in Stellaris terms: fleet, star base and defense stations) are destroyed unless there is some overriding reason the enemy needs to invade rather than bombard the planet into submission and I think this could be portrayed better in some other way - maybe in Stellaris 2 we have something else.

 

[3ishop]

Yes, I’m aware that everything I said is theoretically abstracted into current mechanics. But I think it would be interesting to add some more complexity to combat involving planets, which is why I think that things like planetary anti-orbital cannons could be interesting, or planet-based fighter hangers that can find on the planet or in space against enemy fleets. Think like Star Wars, where in a new hope they sortie x-wings from the rebel base planet to attack the Death Star, or in Empire when they have the giant cannon on the snow planet that shoots at the orbiting star destroyers. I know that some people dislike ground combat so they just want to think about it as little as possible, but I think that we should instead be trying to make it more interesting and involved than “bombard planet, drop stack of highest tier army”

But it doesn't add more complexity to the gameplay, just more complexity to the UI and micromanagement.

A fighter wing on the planet is still just going to be another army with a different name. It's how it's going to work with the existing combat system and air support is going to be part of a space faring military plus AA defences.

Planetary weapons will just make bombardment a chore of micromanagement, you just detach damaged ships and send them a to the local starbase or they become a nothing like most starbases and planetary rings become by the late game as they join the space battle and get swatted down like flies.

I know the image, it just doesn't work for Stellaris.

 

[Nevars]

All armies should cost alloys, instead of minerals.
With upkeep of energy and for special armies special resources.
Biological armies replace 50% of the energy with food upkeep (or minerals if lithoid)

That would make armies much less throw away

Did you see what the defence army are up to?

Making assault army more expensive without buffing them is not the way to go especially when you need 4 to 1 advantage against defence army.

 

[Dragatus]

All armies should cost alloys, instead of minerals.

That would cause the same problem as using naval cap for armies. It would encourage spending your precious alloys on ships and bombing planets into submission.

Ground armies should be removed from the game

They largely have been since the introduction of surrender to bombing. You only need them for special cases when the opponent can't surrender (xenocidals & gestalts). Though you can sidestep those too once you get a colossus up.

 

[GhostDanny]

Did you see what the defence army are up to?

Making assault army more expensive without buffing them is not the way to go especially when you need 4 to 1 advantage against defence army.

The defence armies will obviously also be adapted to the new assault armies.
Ensuring a fair fight.
Defence armies now are only so strong because people just spammed inexpensive assault armies or just bombed the planet into submission...

 

[Cosmic Fishering Fleet]

Defence armies being stronger than similarly outfitted assault armies is kinda expected, so three to one or four to one is pretty much it. The main issue with defence armies is that they do not upgrade themselves and seem to not gather experience as well. Which in late game means that a couple of xenomorph armies can wipe a small planet's worth of armies, because the most bonuses they have are couple society researches and a tradition (and general army repeatables).

 

[PK_AZ]

I find it more reasonable ("realistic") that the planet itself is almost impossible to defend by the time spaceside defenses (in Stellaris terms: fleet, star base and defense stations) are destroyed unless there is some overriding reason the enemy needs to invade rather than bombard the planet into submission and I think this could be portrayed better in some other way - maybe in Stellaris 2 we have something else.

While I'm always negative towards this type of suggestions (TLDR: they are interested in minutae details of warfare instead of its general dynamics and grand strategic perspective, therefore make non-important minigame into non-important and tedious minigame), here I have to defend the idea.
Planet-to-orbit weapon systems would give besieged planet ability to attrition besiegers, therefore mimicing quite good mechanics from other Paradox games. Of course, in Stellaris (in form I last played it, somewhere in 2020?) it wouldn't matter, because battleships with regenerative tissues will just repair itself. For comparison, Hearts of Iron 4 have interesting dynamics where damaged ships has to be pulled back from Area of Operation to shipyard, and in case of capital ships spend massive amount of time (few months, I believe) in repairs (and then whole Task Force is incapacitated, but thats because UX sucks). Honestly its a shame Stellaris didn't get similar dynamics (but with working UX).
You can counter-argue that space stations and orbital rings do exactly the same. But they did not. Space stations are in space, they play by the same rules that fleets and will be destroyed by enemy fleet the same way its fleet was. On the other hand, Planet-to-Orbits main defence is that they do NOT play by the same rules. They can shoot as long as planet can fight, and they cannot be silenced by any means other than bombing planet into submission or landing ground forces.
TLDR concept is good, through I'm not sure it would work in Stellaris.

 

[Cosmic Fishering Fleet]

They can shoot as long as planet can fight, and they cannot be silenced by any means other than bombing planet into submission or landing ground forces.

Possible implementation might be giving strongholds an aura that passively damages hostiles on orbit, implying planetary missile bases and other surface-to-orbit weapons.
Even better if this aura is stacking, meaning that unless you bombard the planet to disable them, ground forces might be unable to land due to anti-ship batteries destroying the transports.

 

[rubert]

I don't really like that idea as that leaves no counter play (other than to bring more ships).

If the game implements that I'd like to have a counter option for the fleets: long range inaccurate bombing. Basically just accelerating asteroids at the planet. Any objects hitting the planet would cause serious damage to pops, buildings etc. and have potential to turn the planet to a tomb world. Defending empire could bring in a fleet to intercept the rocks so the attacker needs to defend them or risk that they get intercept if the attacking fleet is moved away. Attacking colony this way could potentially cause heavy diplomatic penalties, too.

I think any big reworks the ground combat should be left for Stellaris 2 but who knows, maybe PDX has something cooking for it.

edit: I think that actually occupying and then controlling conquered planets in Stellaris is way too easy and cheap. There should be more costs incurred to the occupier both durin the war and after it. From having to station military fleets to provide orbital support, larger enforcer forces, sabotage localized to the system and/or neighbours, funding to rebuild and so on. And least some events could last longer time - it is not uncommon that small militant part keeps fighting even if the general population has "accepted" the new rulers.

 

[forfor]

Water armies are much better. I approve.

And then the fire armies attacked

 

[forfor]

The Empire is not know for their smart tactics for getting their unescorted Colossus (with guns) destroyed by fighters. Note that the Rebel defenses were space defenses, not ground. The bases were just planet based unlike in Stellaris. Starbases and Orbital rings already have similar function in Stellaris - try how well a colossus or a single titan fares against starbase with fighter bays (I guess the titan might be able to destroy the starbase quickly enough due to the unrealistic system scale in Stellaris).

In case of Hoth admiral Ozzel blundered to the Rebel's sensors so they had time to activate their shield protecting the base - forcing the Empire to invade. The ion cannon didn't stop the invasion and neither it could have stopped possible bombardement, it just allowed the high value troops chance to escape as the Empire was forced to come closer to the planet to support the invasion and intercept ships escaping.

I find it more reasonable ("realistic") that the planet itself is almost impossible to defend by the time spaceside defenses (in Stellaris terms: fleet, star base and defense stations) are destroyed unless there is some overriding reason the enemy needs to invade rather than bombard the planet into submission and I think this could be portrayed better in some other way - maybe in Stellaris 2 we have something else.

Don't forget that in one of the movies they revealed that the fatal weakness was intentional by the designer because the empire was holding his daughter hostage so he was forced to invent the death star but he purposefully built in a weakness as an f-u to the empire, then gave the plans to the rebels

 

[Nevars]

The defence armies will obviously also be adapted to the new assault armies.
Ensuring a fair fight.
Defence armies now are only so strong because people just spammed inexpensive assault armies or just bombed the planet into submission...

Defence army is strong because previously they were too weak thus war was too short and decided with just one decisive battle.

Now that defence army can actually defence planet and thus stalled the enemy for years, war is actually interesting and more limited.

I actually approve of this move.

Before I was very concerned of nerfing fortress world as a consequence of habitat rework but now that DA was buff so they can compensate on that.

People spam assault army because they literally have no choice in early game when people get access to better army they move on.

And it's not that inexpensive early on.

Also right now no one in their right mind would try to bombard a sufficienly fortified planet into submission, that's too suboptimal and a wasted of valuable time.

 

[Buddlschlumpf]

It was in the game, several things were tried to make it more interesting, they all sucked. In the end, Stellaris is about space and meaningful ground combat would be way to complex and out of the scope of this game.

That is why they basically merged everything into „armies“ and introduced combat width to have quality matter at least somewhat.

 

[GhostDanny]

Defence army is strong because previously they were too weak thus war was too short and decided with just one decisive battle.

Now that defence army can actually defence planet and thus stalled the enemy for years, war is actually interesting and more limited.

I actually approve of this move.

Before I was very concerned of nerfing fortress world as a consequence of habitat rework but now that DA was buff so they can compensate on that.

People spam assault army because they literally have no choice in early game when people get access to better army they move on.

And it's not that inexpensive early on.

Also right now no one in their right mind would try to bombard a sufficienly fortified planet into submission, that's too suboptimal and a wasted of valuable time.

Defence armies stalling people for years?!
Me laughs in elite assault armies, especially with powerful general.