Should Abassids get Administrative Government?

[apollo1989vieten]

Appointing governors does not necessarily mean administrative. Else Anglo Saxon England should also be administrative.

 

[Qutb87]

You're becoming frustrated and you're lashing out at me, personally, because you can't find any evidence for any of your claims. The end. Period. If anything you were arguing wasn't fan fiction, you'd be able to post that evidence.

I don't care about Byzantium in this topic. I'm not letting you run whataboutisms as an argument and de-railing this topic. This topic is about the Abbasids. Your grudge against fans of Byzantium (???) is another topic.

What was the internal administration of the Abbasid state like in 867?

 

[Jia Xu]

What was the internal administration of the Abbasid state like in 867?

In the ever-shrinking, tiny zone where the Caliph actually still has power? I'm sure he was in control. In the rest of the Caliphate-proper, late 9th century? Warlords did whatever they wanted to and passed their territories to their sons, and the Caliph didn't get a say in it.

Still waiting on that evidence. I said please when I asked for it before. Don't make me bring out the big guns and say pretty please.

 

[Qutb87]

In the ever-shrinking, tiny zone where the Caliph actually still has power? I'm sure he was in control. In the rest of the Caliphate-proper, late 9th century? Warlords did whatever they wanted to and passed their territories to their sons, and the Caliph didn't get a say in it.

Still waiting on that evidence. I said please when I asked for it before. Don't make me bring out the big guns and say pretty please.

Back to the previous irrelevant point about independence and territory size. This non existent problem would of course apply to the realms you presumably think should have the admin govt type. Which you haven't acknowledged either. Why does a realm getting independence have any bearing on the governing status of regions not doing so?

How do you square the historical fact of career family bureaucratic positions and appointed governorship in the Abbasid state throughout the period quite obviously matching the teaser dev description?

Appointing governors does not necessarily mean administrative. Else Anglo Saxon England should also be administrative.

What was the internal administration of the Abbasid state like in 867?

Perhaps you can answer instead.

 

[Jia Xu]

Back to the previous irrelevant point about independence and territory size. This non existent problem would of course apply to the realms you presumably think should have the admin govt type. Which you haven't acknowledged either.

How do you square the historical fact of career family bureaucratic positions and appointed governorship in the Abbasid state throughout the period quite obviously matching the teaser dev description?



What was the internal administration of the Abbasid state like in 867?

Perhaps you can answer instead.

"It's irrelevant because I don't have a response to it" is not a very persuasive argument. It's more like a surrender. I'm not playing whataboutism games in this topic. Whataboutisms are a logical fallacy.

I'm waiting for evidence for any of your claims showing that the Abbasid empire at the end of the 9th century works like Crusader Kings 3's administrative government system as described in official sources.

If you don't have any evidence, it's because you made it up. At this point you're just trying to get the last word in. Let me help you. This conversation is over until you can find evidence. Just so we're clear, evidence means linking to outside sources. It doesn't mean you make up fan fiction on the spot to support bad arguments.

 

[Qutb87]

"It's irrelevant because I don't have a response to it" is not a very persuasive argument. It's more like a surrender. I'm not playing whataboutism games in this topic. Whataboutisms are a logical fallacy.

I'm waiting for evidence for any of your claims showing that the Abbasid empire at the end of the 9th century works like Crusader Kings 3's administrative government system as described in official sources.

If you don't have any evidence, it's because you made it up. At this point you're just trying to get the last word in. Let me help you. This conversation is over until you can find evidence.

They had appointed governors and a massive bureaucracy which was jostled for control of by influential families.

That fact is almost identical to the dev description you were going on about.

Even with your obvious total ignorance of the subject matter and inability to explain my previous question this observation alone should really clinch it.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

They had appointed governors and a massive bureaucracy which was jostled for control of by influential families.

That fact is almost identical to the dev description you were going on about.

Even with your obvious total ignorance of the subject matter and inability to explain my previous question this observation alone should really clinch it.

If that is all that is needed to be considered administrative, Anglo Saxon England should be administrative too.

Some appointments can be titular in nature. Others can be basically exile. The level of control the Caliph had should determine whether the Caliphate could really be the Persian model of administrative government. The level of actual control from the top had shrunk relatively fast.

 

[William the Merry]

If that is all that is needed to be considered administrative, Anglo Saxon England should be administrative too.

Some appointments can be titular in nature. Others can be basically exile. The level of control the Caliph had should determine whether the Caliphate could really be the Persian model of administrative government. The level of actual control from the top had shrunk relatively fast.

Itll be interesting to see if byz in 867, 1066, and 1137 has different levels of centralisation, or if they just all load the same

 

[Qutb87]

If that is all that is needed to be considered administrative, Anglo Saxon England should be administrative too.

Some appointments can be titular in nature. Others can be basically exile. The level of control the Caliph had should determine whether the Caliphate could really be the Persian model of administrative government. The level of actual control from the top had shrunk relatively fast.

If we go just by the teaser description so far then the Abbasid state certainly qualifies. The point about control is one I agree with and hope this will feature in the mechanic they are designing. I'd imagine how much influence a potential governor candidate has relative to the emperor will dictate which of the two would succeed.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

If we go just by the teaser description so far then the Abbasid state certainly qualifies. The point about control is one I agree with and hope this will feature in the mechanic they are designing. I'd imagine how much influence a potential governor candidate has relative to the emperor will dictate which of the two would succeed.

A system should probably be in place for administrative states that could have them degrade to feudal or clan.

 

[AHumpierRogue]

Do you? He was an administrator of Baghdad. Baghdad being within the very small dark green zone still directly controlled by the Caliph. That doesn't contradict a single thing I've said. lol

Now, I asked to post evidence for your claims. I asked very nicely. I said please.

Why wouldn't that "small" green zone(which looks pretty big to me, frankly, it's a country) be governed by an administrative empire?

 

[Jia Xu]

Why wouldn't that "small" green zone(which looks pretty big to me, frankly, it's a country) be governed by an administrative empire?

That small green zone is what? 5 duchies in Mesopotamia and 3 duchies in Hejaz? lol

The answer is that it would cause the rest of the Caliphate to behave ahistorically in irredeemable ways. Warlords all over who have hereditary succession and actually answer to no one would lose all of their titles as soon as they die.

 

[Citizen Caen]

That small green zone is what? 5 duchies in Mesopotamia and 3 duchies in Hejaz? lol

The answer is that it would cause the rest of the Caliphate to behave ahistorically in irredeemable ways. Warlords all over who have hereditary succession and actually answer to no one would lose all of their titles as soon as they die.

I think it’s reasonable to expect administrative empires will have the ability to have different government type vassals. Thats already supported in the current game. Feudal can have clan vassals with tax collectors and vice versa with clan and vassal contracts. So I would think administrative gov can have feudal or clan vassals too.
I fully expect that even the Byzantines will have feudal vassals for some of the Slavic lands. Or at least they should

 

[Jia Xu]

I think it’s reasonable to expect administrative empires will have the ability to have different government type vassals. Thats already supported in the current game. Feudal can have clan vassals with tax collectors and vice versa with clan and vassal contracts.
I fully expect that even the Byzantines will have feudal vassals for some of the Slavic lands. Or at least they should

If I had my way, it would be exactly as you described it. That sounds great. I'd love to have some kind of hybrid with the features of both clan and admin government.

Considering that the developers explicitly said that their philosophy on imperial government is that it should feel different than playing a king, I'm not holding out hope for hybrid government at all. This is gonna be something different. Different isn't a synonym for bad, of course, but we should set reasonable expectations.

 

[the_unnamed]

If that is all that is needed to be considered administrative, Anglo Saxon England should be administrative too.

Even more so as the concept of the rule of law was established by Alfred in his jurisdiction within game’s timeframe (Doom Book), reflecting not only the bureaucratic aspect of public governance but also its general paradigmatic shift.