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PI, now that you've broken up Germany, could you consider breaking up Byzantium too?

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I miss the old kingdom of Germany. :(

One thing I've noticed is that unlike Frisia, Lotharingia's duchies are not shades of its new color (in Frisia's case, orange) but are still gray like Germany. I think they should make them shades of brown to be consistent.
 
Sleight of Hand said:
Finland was part of the modern Tsarist Russian empire, but I agree it doesn't make sense during this period. That said neither does a Russian empire at all really -- the kingdom of Rus is fine but they could maybe improve the de jure setup.
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Yeah, but it was part of Sweden during this time period and had been for longer than Russia managed to hold onto it way later. I'm all for historically plausible empires and kingdoms, but they must make at least a little bit of sense. :huh:
 
Wallain said:
Yeah, but it was part of Sweden during this time period and had been for longer than Russia managed to hold onto it way later. I'm all for historically plausible empires and kingdoms, but they must make at least a little bit of sense. :huh:
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Finland can be a part of both 'titular' Russian and Scandinavian empires as for me.
 
NoobRage said:
Come on, a blind man can see that this is just an excuse for pillaging the Byzantine Empire (also the richest empire on Europe, and very weak after the loss of Anatolia). Of course, there were some zealots like Joan of Arc, but most people dont care about religion. Their ideals are very good, but the execution is poor, and most of the bishops/popes/monks were corrupt. Most, if not all knowledge of the time was held by the church, that kept people in ignorance, burning scientists and hunting cats cuz church says so. Did you know the Roman Catholic Church is the biggest investor of weapons in the world?
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I love how people who make this argument always end up claiming that an institution no one apparently believed in was still somehow powerful enough to keep millions in ignorance and obedience for centuries. It speaks to the sort of messed-up worldview necessary to espouse such a ludicrous theory of political economy.

Anyway, I won't give my nose for you to grind your axe on any longer. Papal recognition should be the measure of de jure kingdoms, as much now as then, and there is support for at least a few in the Balkans and Anatolia, courtesy of the brief and beleaguered Latin Empire.
 
Neoptolemos said:
I love how people who make this argument always end up claiming that an institution no one apparently believed in was still somehow powerful enough to keep millions in ignorance and obedience for centuries. It speaks to the sort of messed-up worldview necessary to espouse such a ludicrous theory of political economy.

Anyway, I won't give my nose for you to grind your axe on any longer. Papal recognition should be the measure of de jure kingdoms, as much now as then, and there is support for at least a few in the Balkans and Anatolia, courtesy of the brief and beleaguered Latin Empire.
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I would agree with you for catholic realms, although I do have a more cynical medieval worldview than you, but since we are talking about millions of people we can safely assume a wide variety of motivations. As Varys in GoT puts it: "power resides where people believe it resides." And I believe this is very much true.

Where I disagree is when concerning non-catholic realms. Why would orthodox or muslim realms need to take their legitimacy out of papal recognition? Especially in the middle ages, not everything was about Europe.
 
Graspiloot said:
I would agree with you for catholic realms, although I do have a more cynical medieval worldview than you, but since we are talking about millions of people we can safely assume a wide variety of motivations. As Varys in GoT puts it: "power resides where people believe it resides." And I believe this is very much true.

Where I disagree is when concerning non-catholic realms. Why would orthodox or muslim realms need to take their legitimacy out of papal recognition? Especially in the middle ages, not everything was about Europe.
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He didn't write anything about non-catholic realms. :)

And in fact, they shouldn't care what the Pope thinks, and consequently shouldn't use de iure kingdom rules to decide about which area is under who's control (and who's rules apply) at all.
 
Akjosch said:
He didn't write anything about non-catholic realms. :)

And in fact, they shouldn't care what the Pope thinks, and consequently shouldn't use de iure kingdom rules to decide about which area is under who's control (and who's rules apply) at all.
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No it was you. On page 5 when someone mentioned the sultanate of africa you said:

Akjosch said:
... and it was officially recognised by the Pope as such and had a working and active diplomatic relation with the Papacy, right?

... Right?
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That's how the topic came up in the first place.
 
Graspiloot said:
No it was you. On page 5 when someone mentioned the sultanate of africa you said:



That's how the topic came up in the first place.
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Yes, and I stand by my assertion: Non-Christian rulers are better served by using EU3's "claims" system than CK2's "de iure" system. In particular, the Eastern European countries should use a kind of "dynastic claims" system (a variant of the EU3 one), where every member of the dynasty has a claim on the whole area per default.

Christians should care about de iure claims, should be able to form (with a little help from the Pope) new de iure kingdoms in the areas where are none, but they should also not be able to change existing de iure kingdoms, and be bound by the rules of de iure kingdoms. They could also ask Pope of the creation of a new de iure kingdom (say, of Jerusalem ...) even if it is currently held by pagans, heretics and other such, and he could allow it to happen if they manage to conquer at least part of this territory.

Non-Christians should not care about de iure claims, but have their own layer of (potentially overlapping!) claims to areas. They should not be bound by de iure rules of kingdoms they conquer part of. On the other hand, they should be able to lose claims rather quickly, especially through wars.

Christening of a Non-Christian ruler would elevate him to a king in the eyes of other Christians, and would often be accompanied by making his kingdom de iure, at least for the areas which weren't in a de iure kingdom before - or at least it should be a prerequisite to turning their de facto kingdom into a de iure one.
 
Neoptolemos said:
I love how people who make this argument always end up claiming that an institution no one apparently believed in was still somehow powerful enough to keep millions in ignorance and obedience for centuries. It speaks to the sort of messed-up worldview necessary to espouse such a ludicrous theory of political economy.

Anyway, I won't give my nose for you to grind your axe on any longer. Papal recognition should be the measure of de jure kingdoms, as much now as then, and there is support for at least a few in the Balkans and Anatolia, courtesy of the brief and beleaguered Latin Empire.
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Ah yes, ALL kingdoms of europe were VERY papal approved, we can begin with Scotland, Byzantium and many more, who were recgonized by all of europe as kings/emperors (and the Mongol Horde? Also always refered as empire). The Latin Empire was so very catholic that they got excomunicated and bribed the pope to get back in the church.

Nobody ever cared about the pope. Most just left him screaming at them while they just kept doing their business. The Kaiser often shitted on his holy head.
 
NoobRage said:
...Nobody ever cared about the pope. Most just left him screaming at them while they just kept doing their business. The Kaiser often shitted on his holy head.
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Nobody ever cared about Gregory VII? Urban II? Callixtus II? Innocent III? Mayhaps you should re-read some of your history? I am also a tad skeptical that there were frequent instances in which any individuals defecated on the Supreme Pontiff's cranium, much less the Pope's ordained Imperator Romanus Sacer.
 
Nobles just cared about their royal asses. I do admire the church`s ideals, but if religion didnt match the nobles interest, the nobles didnt give a shit to His Holiness. Conflicts about secular investiture and things like that took much time to resolve, as the pope`s power isnt solid.

But hey, De Jure kingdoms were not control of the pope. Thats noble territory.

And back in topic, please dont break up Byzantium.

Sleight of Hand said:
I miss the old kingdom of Germany. :(

One thing I've noticed is that unlike Frisia, Lotharingia's duchies are not shades of its new color (in Frisia's case, orange) but are still gray like Germany. I think they should make them shades of brown to be consistent.
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Poor Germany... and lazy Paradox didnt even change the duchies shades! Because of that i still dont know what is lower or upper lorraine! Argh!
 
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NoobRage said:
Poor Germany... and lazy Paradox didnt even change the duchies shades! Because of that i still dont know what is lower or upper lorraine! Argh!
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I reported that in the bug forum earlier today. Hopefully Lotharingia's duchies will be shades of brown in 1.06. :)
 
It is very very simply to make any kingdom in any place you want whith any shades you prefer. Only one file you need to mod is landed_titles. Will take from 1 to 3 hours.
Do not forget incert kingdom name in localisation file and make flag in flag folder.
 
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xGhost4000x said:
Anything that results in more kingdoms is fine by me.
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More kingdoms are more possibilities for the player.

Big kingdoms, little kingdoms, all are fun and interesting. Nothing obliged people to create all the kingdoms or such. Freedom is great in a sandbox game.

So, on OP, split ERE into kingdoms : Yes ! it is the only area without kingdoms in it. It would make it more attractible.
 
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