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You can find historical examples for any kind of suicidal lunacy. That does not make it a regular, normal occurence, neither does it change the double standard of acceptability.

No, i do dont agree that the lustful trait is enough. Not even close. There still must be circumstances where the wife thinks risking her and her lovers life is a reasonable risk.

You could make the argument, that not only the wife, but the lovers power can be factored in i.e. a very powerful great duke seducing the kings wife as a way to say to the king "you can´t do anything against me". But this has nothing to do with court mechanics, he is not a courtier. It would also seem more a question of politics and not lust.

At least in my country we have several examples of females who were not lunatics that went against the rulers wills and wronged them in affairs with other powerful people (most of the time). Love makes us do some unreasonable things.

I think the lustful trait and a good opinion (opinion should be decisive for this action) would be enough.
 
At least in my country we have several examples of females who were not lunatics that went against the rulers wills and wronged them in affairs with other powerful people (most of the time). Love makes us do some unreasonable things.

I think the lustful trait and a good opinion (opinion should be decisive for this action) would be enough.

Whether "lust" and "love" are connected, and in which way, in medieval ethics is yet another can of worms i would not recommend opening...

Yet, you mentioned now again "powerful people". Yes, it would mean she had (implicitly) power behind her as a protection. This is not the same as bedding some landless courtier, lustful or not.

EDIT: Thinking it over, i have the impression that we were now talking a bit past each other. While i was talking about "circumstances" you were talking about "reasons".

Yes, i agree that being lustful and having bad spouse realtions is a valid reason. But waht are the circumstances to risk your life. If you really want to pin circumstances on traits only, it would have to be rather complex like
- the wife is lustful + cruel + brave, and hates you
- the wife is lustful + deceitful and has very high intrigue, while the ruler is trusting and low intrigue
etc. and she hates you
- the wife is lustful + dull, and her lover is deceitful
etc.
 
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In a time where most marriages are political, and the husband is out campaigning most of the year, is it strange that the women find someone else as a lover?
What typically starts as a friend, that can be there when the husband is far away, becomes something more.
And if she is childless - it might even be safer to be unfaithful than chaste. Getting that heir is very important, far more than the actual parentage. After all - what if the lord takes a blow to his head while fighting and there isn't a heir? Then all is lost for the lady, but with just one heir that all changes...

And if you already have a heir? Then the parentage of the rest don't matter as much do they? She's done the job, and as long as she is discreet, she is respectful to her lord.

I get that some people have a problem with this - as will some characters (which is why they keep accusing her until she breaks down and confesses). But consider this, if your marriage produced 0 offspring, would that be any better? Would you not set her aside before she turned 40?
 
In a time where most marriages are political, and the husband is out campaigning most of the year, is it strange that the women find someone else as a lover?
What typically starts as a friend, that can be there when the husband is far away, becomes something more.
And if she is childless - it might even be safer to be unfaithful than chaste. Getting that heir is very important, far more than the actual parentage. After all - what if the lord takes a blow to his head while fighting and there isn't a heir? Then all is lost for the lady, but with just one heir that all changes...

And if you already have a heir? Then the parentage of the rest don't matter as much do they? She's done the job, and as long as she is discreet, she is respectful to her lord.

I get that some people have a problem with this - as will some characters (which is why they keep accusing her until she breaks down and confesses). But consider this, if your marriage produced 0 offspring, would that be any better? Would you not set her aside before she turned 40?

Logical, but that too is a specific circumstance: the spouse feels safe to do that because the ruler is far away most of the time.

This means that he would have to command armies, or be at the lieges court (if a vassal) etc., none of which is factored into the current seduction/affairs mechanics, none of which is easy to script, and all of which would still require bad relations and certain traits to be plausible.
 
The big elephant in the room that nobody wants to touch is the medieval double standard in gender relations. Male rulers could easily get away with siring bastards. Spouses of rulers could not. This does not go well with moderen audeinces, it goes against the principle of "he can do it, so she can do it too".

The question is what circumstances could there be where a rulers spouse - under medieval standards - could think to have a chance of getting "away with it".

I can see only very few circumstances where this makes sense like
+ she is a lunatic, an imbecile or inbred
+ she is herself a ruler with armies under her command, and hates you, imprisoning her would risk a major civil war
+ she is your spymaster, and thinks she can hide it. Even so, she would still need a reason to have a lover like hating the ruler, the ruler is infirm and/or much older than her, he is ugly, a leper etc.

See the problem? I just don´t see the devs script something like that without causing outrage of "sexism" etc.. The only way i see is an option to turn seduction off entirely.

EDIT: IF the devs would decide on plausible triggers like above, PC be damned, then i would be OK with it even without an option to turn it off. You know what you are getting into, after all, it would be the consequence of the players actions.

The double standard is actually already in the game in some ways -- for example, the Adulteress modifier (and Incestuous Adulteress, too) is twice as bad as the male counterpart, and unless you increase Status of Women enough (which the AI never bothers to do, even if it is female, Ambitious, etc.) an unfaithful husband can't be justifiably imprisoned for that reason alone while an unfaithful wife always can be if you've discovered the affair -- so I don't really think that perceived sexism is what has been keeping that kind of seduction logic out as much as the fact that it would become more complicated to script separate logic for men and women than having essentially the same logic (with a few instances of women being more likely to turn down seduction), particularly since there are plenty of other places where the game favours men for historical reasons (e.g. without certain game rules or changing the SoW laws, most rulers can't get True Cognatic Succession) and haven't been particularly many complaints about it (I believe there were more complaints over the SoW laws being added and HF allowing Enatic Clans/Equality than complaints about various things that put female characters at a disadvantage).


As for reasons where it would be sensible for the woman to risk it, I can think of some additional reasons to the ones you've mentioned:

- The party trying to seduce her is of a much higher rank than her/her family/her husband/her husband's family. For example, if an emperor attempts to seduce a countess or duchess, she'd probably stand to gain more from going along with it than an empress/princess/wife of someone in the imperial family would stand to gain from tumbling a random count or duke.

- Her husband is imprisoned, not terribly bright, or the like. Obviously, in the first case, it would be hard to explain away a pregnancy, but if he can't act against her she might still risk it, and she might be smart enough to take steps to ensure that pregnancy is unlikely or that it ends before it becomes obvious.

- She's in a court friendly to her rather than her husband, and he/his family wouldn't be in a position to act on it. For example, a matri-married princess in her father's court would probably not have to worry about her father chopping off her head if she's discovered to be unfaithful (though her lover might stand to lose his head or certain other parts of his body...).

- She follows a religion that's got Enatic Clans, since that should make her infidelity more okay than her husband's.

Of course, regardless of what would make the risk acceptable, she should still have traits that makes it plausible (e.g. not Chaste/Celibate), should have a negative enough opinion of her husband to consider it, and so on, as just having a reasonable opportunity to be unfaithful shouldn't translate into actually being unfaithful if the character has no reason to consider that course of action.
 
The double standard is actually already in the game in some ways -- for example, the Adulteress modifier (and Incestuous Adulteress, too) is twice as bad as the male counterpart, and unless you increase Status of Women enough (which the AI never bothers to do, even if it is female, Ambitious, etc.) an unfaithful husband can't be justifiably imprisoned for that reason alone while an unfaithful wife always can be if you've discovered the affair -- so I don't really think that perceived sexism is what has been keeping that kind of seduction logic out as much as the fact that it would become more complicated to script separate logic for men and women than having essentially the same logic (with a few instances of women being more likely to turn down seduction), particularly since there are plenty of other places where the game favours men for historical reasons (e.g. without certain game rules or changing the SoW laws, most rulers can't get True Cognatic Succession) and haven't been particularly many complaints about it (I believe there were more complaints over the SoW laws being added and HF allowing Enatic Clans/Equality than complaints about various things that put female characters at a disadvantage).


As for reasons where it would be sensible for the woman to risk it, I can think of some additional reasons to the ones you've mentioned:

- The party trying to seduce her is of a much higher rank than her/her family/her husband/her husband's family. For example, if an emperor attempts to seduce a countess or duchess, she'd probably stand to gain more from going along with it than an empress/princess/wife of someone in the imperial family would stand to gain from tumbling a random count or duke.

- Her husband is imprisoned, not terribly bright, or the like. Obviously, in the first case, it would be hard to explain away a pregnancy, but if he can't act against her she might still risk it, and she might be smart enough to take steps to ensure that pregnancy is unlikely or that it ends before it becomes obvious.

- She's in a court friendly to her rather than her husband, and he/his family wouldn't be in a position to act on it. For example, a matri-married princess in her father's court would probably not have to worry about her father chopping off her head if she's discovered to be unfaithful (though her lover might stand to lose his head or certain other parts of his body...).

- She follows a religion that's got Enatic Clans, since that should make her infidelity more okay than her husband's.

Of course, regardless of what would make the risk acceptable, she should still have traits that makes it plausible (e.g. not Chaste/Celibate), should have a negative enough opinion of her husband to consider it, and so on, as just having a reasonable opportunity to be unfaithful shouldn't translate into actually being unfaithful if the character has no reason to consider that course of action.

Good points, i would agree to all of these. I especially like the last one, i haven´t thought of that since enatic clans are so rare. But yes it reflects the the cultural mismatch problem of "what do you mean, we all do that back at home..".
 
Whether "lust" and "love" are connected, and in which way, in medieval ethics is yet another can of worms i would not recommend opening...

Yet, you mentioned now again "powerful people". Yes, it would mean she had (implicitly) power behind her as a protection. This is not the same as bedding some landless courtier, lustful or not.

EDIT: Thinking it over, i have the impression that we were now talking a bit past each other. While i was talking about "circumstances" you were talking about "reasons".

Yes, i agree that being lustful and having bad spouse realtions is a valid reason. But waht are the circumstances to risk your life. If you really want to pin circumstances on traits only, it would have to be rather complex like
- the wife is lustful + cruel + brave, and hates you
- the wife is lustful + deceitful and has very high intrigue, while the ruler is trusting and low intrigue
etc. and she hates you
- the wife is lustful + dull, and her lover is deceitful
etc.

Yup, I can agree with this way of placing things.
 
Logical, but that too is a specific circumstance: the spouse feels safe to do that because the ruler is far away most of the time.

This means that he would have to command armies, or be at the lieges court (if a vassal) etc., none of which is factored into the current seduction/affairs mechanics, none of which is easy to script, and all of which would still require bad relations and certain traits to be plausible.

Actually, even if I disagree with @sortulv stating lieges in medieval age were "campaigning most of the year" - a particularity of some kinds of CK2 games - it is very easy to code a trigger with what you argument. But again, I agree with your points, just talking about the script angle.
 
Well after an hour of testing I've found no incidents of lover relationships being developed with a married spouse and a random courtier after rereading LF.61002 carefully it seems to create three different relationships Friendship, Rivalry, and Lover relationship, as to what triggers which relationship and how high the weighted chance are for these results I know not, but from what I'm guessing is for any of the three the requirements are pretty low as they happen quite commonly enough for bug threads to be open about it. So a good fix for it to not happen to your spouse or concubine is to add these lines of code:

#Relationships
character_event = {
id = LT.61002
hide_window = yes

is_triggered_only = yes

trigger = {
ai = no
any_courtier = {
is_landed = no
is_married = no
is_consort = no
prisoner = no
is_adult = yes
count = 2

I am no modder by any means, and perhaps this may not be the solution as I haven't heavily tested it, but so far from my experience of taking a whole bunch of wives and then console cheating to look at the relationships of other rulers spouses and their relationships I've found no seemingly random illicit relations with the seduction focus off. Barring of course other events that cause lover relationships like the old-school "I think she fancies me" and created lovers from Reaper's Due events.

I think if you want to exclude all spouses/consorts (your wife/concubine included) from LT.61002 you have to add
is_married = no
is_consort = no
to both
random_courtier = {
limit = {
after the trigger not to the trigger itself.
To exclude characters based on traits adding
NOT = { trait = X }
should work, just insert the trait you want (e.g. NOT = { trait = chaste }).
 
I think if you want to exclude all spouses/consorts (your wife/concubine included) from LT.61002 you have to add
is_married = no
is_consort = no
to both
random_courtier = {
limit = {
after the trigger not to the trigger itself.
To exclude characters based on traits adding
NOT = { trait = X }
should work, just insert the trait you want (e.g. NOT = { trait = chaste }).

where is LT.61002 ? which file is that?
 
@gdj if you want I'll script it for you. Give me all the conditions you want through PM and I'll do it.
 
Logical, but that too is a specific circumstance: the spouse feels safe to do that because the ruler is far away most of the time.

This means that he would have to command armies, or be at the lieges court (if a vassal) etc., none of which is factored into the current seduction/affairs mechanics, none of which is easy to script, and all of which would still require bad relations and certain traits to be plausible.
Isn't it? Every time I got this event, it was "My wife is pregnant, but I was away, wasn't I?"
 
where is LT.61002 ? which file is that?

LT.61002 is a hidden event that adds a lover, a friend or a rival to an random unlanded courtier, who has none of those relations.
It seems it can trigger if you have at least 2 adult unlanded and not imprisoned courtiers with none of the relations above.
It can trigger immediately with chance = 75, even higher if you have atleast 4 of those courtiers.
It chooses 2 of those courtiers and adds them as either lovers, friends or rivals depending on their opinion of eachother.
 
1066, Erik the Heathen. There is always a high dip hedonist in your court, and he always cuckolds you (all your concubines and a wife). When I played for an achievement, first thing I learned to do is to kick him out.
 
@gdj if you want I'll script it for you. Give me all the conditions you want through PM and I'll do it.

Thank you! Basically, i would wih that that it would only happen if the traits are as described in my posting above
- she has either "lunatic", "imbecile" or "inbred"
- she is "lustful+cruel+brave" and hates her husband
- she is "lustful+deceitful" and hates her husband, who is "trusting"
- she is "lustful+dull" or "lusful+slow", but the lover is "deceitful" and hates the liege

if you can conjure something that comes even close to that through scripting or showing us how to do it, then it would be fantastic!

EDIT: i would define "hate" as relations of -15 or worse..
 
Isn't it? Every time I got this event, it was "My wife is pregnant, but I was away, wasn't I?"

Well, this message fires even if you were at court all year, and not away at all.

The devs seem to acknowledge that you had to be dictracted somehow, but that is just flavor text, there is no mechanic behind it.
 
Thank you! Basically, i would wih that that it would only happen if the traits are as described in my posting above
- she has either "lunatic", "imbecile" or "inbred"
- she is "lustful+cruel+brave" and hates her husband
- she is "lustful+deceitful" and hates her husband, who is "trusting"
- she is "lustful+dull" or "lusful+slow", but the lover is "deceitful" and hates the liege

if you can conjure something that comes even close to that through scripting or showing us how to do it, then it would be fantastic!

EDIT: i would define "hate" as relations of -15 or worse..

Ok, will do it today and send to you.
 
It's done, I'll send you through PM. Meanwhile I fixed the bug where straight courtiers were having same sex relationships and another bug where this relationship only started if one courtier had an opinion < 5 than the other.
 
LT.61002 is a hidden event that adds a lover, a friend or a rival to an random unlanded courtier, who has none of those relations.
It seems it can trigger if you have at least 2 adult unlanded and not imprisoned courtiers with none of the relations above.
It can trigger immediately with chance = 75, even higher if you have atleast 4 of those courtiers.
It chooses 2 of those courtiers and adds them as either lovers, friends or rivals depending on their opinion of eachother.
Wait, hidden as in its not in any of the event folders or what?