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BeyondExpectation

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Apr 3, 2016
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  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
I think most of us are glad that modern Paradox games are not railroaded to any major degree. They're alt-history simulators, after all, not history simulators. As they say, as soon as the game starts, history veers off course.

And yet, there is a phenomenon that is a pillar of Hearts of Iron 4 and has recently been added to Europa Universalis 4 which I'll call "roading" which is a milder version of railroading and is also bad, though not as bad as railroading.

In EU4, the mission trees are bad for the same reason railroading is. They're a gamey way of making countries follow actual history to a degree, but only on a superficial level without any of the reasons actual history occurred the way it did being in place. The whole permanent claims thing is particularly bad; the claims system in EU4 is very simplistic, to put it nicely, but mission granted permanent claims are a buff that's better than regular claims with zero historic/in-universe justification. This doesn't pose a problem for those who don't care about historicity, but as with all the complaints about when things are historically accurate, lots of people do. I play Paradox games because nothing even comes close to reaching their historical accuracy, and I'm clearly not the only one.

In HOI4, the much smaller time scale renders much of the above moot, as it's extremely hard to radically alter the historical factors that were in place in 1935 by the game's end date. Nevertheless, focus trees are still bad, for a wholly different reason that also applies to a lesser degree to mission trees: that every tag needs one.
This creates a massive amount of work for devs/modders, and cripples alt-history by adding more hurdles for countries to be added. It's not just me; there was a huge amount of complains about the price of Death or Dishonor. There's no simple solution to the issue, but the fact that such a large amount of dev time and effort was devoted to a handful of small countries rather than universal (or regional) mechanics speaks ill for the game as a whole. Throughout Indian history, a number of large empires have broken apart into chaotic messes. In CK2 for instance, though this is unlikely to happen, it can for as long as the game runs, and would happen a whole lot more with a number of fairly minor changes that I don't know the devs reasons for not implementing. In EU4 on the other hand, empries crumbling from within only ever happened with the forced and ahistorical Mingsplotion. Even if it did happen in EU4 India, the countries would ether ahistorically be recycled tags (in reality, country names recycle, but countries only do within decades) or have a generic mission tree.

There is one final problem with roading; its superficial fixing of problems leads to the underlying problem never being fixed. This is best illustrated with EU4's rare railroads of the Burgundian Inheritance and the Iberian Wedding. People wanting a more historic game sometimes complain about these events, as do those wanting a more varied one (railroading is bad) but more rarely does anyone complain about EU4's shonky personal union system. The most famous and important union of the era was between Aragon and Castile, and since there's a clumsy substitute for a decent system in the game in this one instance, people care far less about the game's general lacking in what could be a fun minigame of marrying your heirs to people in line for other thrones, then in the latter stages balancing this with getting enormous AE like in the case of the War of the Spanish Succession. This applies to roading too: focuses to grant factories or forts in HOI4 cover up some other problem which could theoretically be fixed with better economy simulation or AI understanding of geopolitics, something which can and probably would make the game better in other respects too.

Tl;dr: Paradox games would be better without countries getting a buff from a short list of options based on a tree.
 
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While i might agree with you on part of the mission/focus trees, i think that events like the Burgundian Inheritance or the Iberian Wedding are (kind of) neccesary. There are simply some "black swan" events, espacially in the early part of EUIV, but also of CKII that aren't really recreatable with game mechanics, and need to be scripted if you want anything like historical development.
 
While i might agree with you on part of the mission/focus trees, i think that events like the Burgundian Inheritance or the Iberian Wedding are (kind of) neccesary. There are simply some "black swan" events, espacially in the early part of EUIV, but also of CKII that aren't really recreatable with game mechanics, and need to be scripted if you want anything like historical development.

While you could make a case for the Burgundian Inheritance, I couldn't disagree more on the Iberian wedding. It wasn't a black swan at all; the Christian realms of Iberia merged and split up several times from the 10th through 16th centuries. Any decent personal union system could easily model this, or the almost as likely event of Castile merging with Portugal.
 
its superficial fixing of problems leads to the underlying problem never being fixed.
To create a perfect history simulator... It is not easy... Not to mention that it is probably not desirable.
Remember history is a series of highly unlikely events - so a perfect history simulator would be very unhistorical, and also completely incomprehensible.
 
To create a perfect history simulator... It is not easy... Not to mention that it is probably not desirable.
Remember history is a series of highly unlikely events - so a perfect history simulator would be very unhistorical, and also completely incomprehensible.

I don't mean to sound rude, but did you read the opening line? Your comment makes it seem like you didn't.
 
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I don't mean to sound rude, but did you read the opening line? Your comment makes it seem like you didn't.
An actual history simulator is an alt-history simulator. As soon as you allow for either rnd or player intervention. The key word is simulator. If you actually simulate the events of what happens if xxx did something other than what happened in our timeline, then you have alt-hist, yes?
 
I don't play HOI, but I must confess I am not a fan of mission trees in EU4.
 
The NF trees of HoI 4 are an engineering nightmare, particularly with the ever-expanding set of alternative historical scenarios. They require and are going to require disproportionate time to develop and maintain, and this is why I've lost hope for HoI 4. With the fans having bought several DLCs that are essentially just NF packs, I can't see them culling them from the game anymore, even if it would be the smart thing to do at this point.

Static design like NF trees is a very smart idea when things are small. HoI 4 started small, in that respect. Only seven countries had NF trees, and alt-history was rather limited. In effect, the game had only a couple of "primus motors" and the rest of the countries would mostly react to those - simple and effective design.

But with the introduction of the Polish and later every other minor NF tree, HoI 4 is no longer small. Now it's big, and static design has long since become a burden, not the "easy way".. Now everyone's a primus motor, and everyone's choices can affect everyone, and it all still needs to make sense. And it often doesn't, because you can't just keep throwing content designers at increasingly difficult problems and hope the problems solve themselves.
 
While you could make a case for the Burgundian Inheritance, I couldn't disagree more on the Iberian wedding. It wasn't a black swan at all; the Christian realms of Iberia merged and split up several times from the 10th through 16th centuries. Any decent personal union system could easily model this, or the almost as likely event of Castile merging with Portugal.

Well, ofcourse adding a decent personal union system would add something, but to actualy simulate all the inter-connections between the spanish kingdoms, we'd probably need to use a full-blown CKII character system, and that is just outside of what EUIV does, and probably also outside of what EUIV can do.
 
An Observation, Historical AI setting: isn't this present in Hoi4? And, if on, don't the AI follow the historical path down the trees? If so, this could solve the problem of railroading. Whilst Hoi4 was designed bottom up with these trees, EU4 has had it patched in, and as such, they appear not to be designed to facilitate alternate history, but to replace the mission system, which, by and large, was also a railroading tool.
 
An Observation, Historical AI setting: isn't this present in Hoi4? And, if on, don't the AI follow the historical path down the trees? If so, this could solve the problem of railroading.

I can't tell what you're getting at here. What specific problem of railroading does this solve, and how does it connect to roading?
 
This is what I love about Victoria 2, there is little railroading (apart from the unification events and britain annexing india). Mods make it even better (though some introduce more railroading). Most events are logical consequences of the conditions present. For example, if you lack resources like steel and coal, you will have a harder time industrializing. Without literacy, research is slower and pop promotion is decreased. If you have a lot of pops, you have the potential to field a large army and thus with sufficient funds and tech, you can be a military might. It's not because you chose military ideas or traditions or even did missions for it, but by using the main game mechanics. Migration in vanilla is horribly railroaded, but atleast in mods it's more rational (don't go to the USA if it's a broken communist state in constant civil war). Ideology stems from the conditions of your pops, if they fulfill their needs they tend to like you. Ofcourse race and religion play their part too. In HOI$ diplomacy barely seems to exist, with all the real alliances being made with decision trees. Ofcourse you could try hard and get non-historical allies but that's rarely worth the effort. In Victoria 2, you have to use diplomacy to get your allies. Sphere smaller nations and make friends with other great powers. Stellaris also seems to do this well. If they want a HOI thats not railroaded, just let it start in 1919, turn the weimar republic in whatever you want, conquer poland as the soviets or split the entente.
 
There's nothing inherently railroaded about a focus tree. To illustrate, picture if every nation had the generic one and the AI had no explicitly tuned weight to pick between alternatives.

In HOI 4 it's a problem because the conditionals in the trees are impossible to keep up with so you get weird interactions like USA declaring on democratic Germany after WW2 in the name of opposing fascism.

The game has bigger issues though. Faction leaders take nations they should not (based on their own, in-game interests) such as Axis taking Peru vs SA nation or Allies taking Columbia...even if the aggressor is not part of a faction, the basic controls are a little busted, and the #1 unaddressed issue:

"Who gets land during and after war" does not work. Occupations, capitulations, and peace conferences are all objectively broken without refutation. Not a single person can give me rules for any of these 3 mechanics that anticipates what will happen in the game. For example, people tell you "occupations go to the country from which the attacking forces took the province", and they're wrong. That is not what happens in the game consistently. There's no apparent coherent reasoning for the exceptions, but it alters game outcomes.

Since you can hold most of the Axis/Comintern land as a neutral Iran, I conclude that the broken mechanics are a bigger issue to HOI 4 than its railroading with NFs.
 
There's nothing inherently railroaded about a focus tree. To illustrate, picture if every nation had the generic one and the AI had no explicitly tuned weight to pick between alternatives.

In HOI 4 it's a problem because the conditionals in the trees are impossible to keep up with so you get weird interactions like USA declaring on democratic Germany after WW2 in the name of opposing fascism.

The game has bigger issues though. Faction leaders take nations they should not (based on their own, in-game interests) such as Axis taking Peru vs SA nation or Allies taking Columbia...even if the aggressor is not part of a faction, the basic controls are a little busted, and the #1 unaddressed issue:

"Who gets land during and after war" does not work. Occupations, capitulations, and peace conferences are all objectively broken without refutation. Not a single person can give me rules for any of these 3 mechanics that anticipates what will happen in the game. For example, people tell you "occupations go to the country from which the attacking forces took the province", and they're wrong. That is not what happens in the game consistently. There's no apparent coherent reasoning for the exceptions, but it alters game outcomes.

Since you can hold most of the Axis/Comintern land as a neutral Iran, I conclude that the broken mechanics are a bigger issue to HOI 4 than its railroading with NFs.

There's nothing "railroaded" which is why I used the term "roading".

After your second paragraph, this post is off-topic. I'm speaking in general, mainly for future Paradox games, as I highly doubt Paradox will ever remove focus trees from HOI4.
 
There's nothing "railroaded" which is why I used the term "roading".

After your second paragraph, this post is off-topic. I'm speaking in general, mainly for future Paradox games, as I highly doubt Paradox will ever remove focus trees from HOI4.

My point is that mutually exclusive roading paths are not necessarily bad implementations, but mostly not in the capacity Paradox has used them to this point. The closest is actually national ideas in EU 4; while some are false choices they actually function similarly to NF trees on a long term scale w/o much adverse impact. This kind of roading does not hurt the game and can offer interesting choices.
 
My point is that mutually exclusive roading paths are not necessarily bad implementations, but mostly not in the capacity Paradox has used them to this point. The closest is actually national ideas in EU 4; while some are false choices they actually function similarly to NF trees on a long term scale w/o much adverse impact. This kind of roading does not hurt the game and can offer interesting choices.

Thank you; I understand now.
 
I hate to say I told y’all so but I did. NFs are not maintainable in HOI4 and mission trees were the most egregious example of EU4’s trend toward updating things in isolation and leaving everything else to rot. The fact that both games try to cover up their glaring flaws with window dressing backed by pretty...uhhh...’subjective’ content designers just makes it a very worrying trend. Let’s hope Imperator stays away from it because it’s been an issue in HOI4 from the beginning and it’s pretty much killed EU4.
 
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I think most of us are glad that modern Paradox games are not railroaded to any major degree. They're alt-history simulators, after all, not history simulators. As they say, as soon as the game starts, history veers off course.

And yet, there is a phenomenon that is a pillar of Hearts of Iron 4 and has recently been added to Europa Universalis 4 which I'll call "roading" which is a milder version of railroading and is also bad, though not as bad as railroading.
Blablabla
Dont see the problem....a bit of direction is necessary for the games to not become totally arbitrarry and therefore meaningless...so what you call roading i call gamedesign
 
Dont see the problem....a bit of direction is necessary for the games to not become totally arbitrarry and therefore meaningless...so what you call roading i call gamedesign

Direction can be done through mechanics that occur either universally or based on other in-game phenomenon, or it can be done through mechanics that are specific to a country or some similar equivalent. Crusader Kings 2 games are hardly arbitrary even if you turn the small amount of railroading off.
 
I feel that a little bit of your so called 'roading' is necessary. The game mechanics, especially flavor ones for specific nations, need to be at least somewhat likely to occur for it to be reasonable. An England that exists entirely on the continent after losing its homeland to Scotland doesn't have much need for the "Wooden Wall" nor does a Russia pushing west into Germany need the Siberian frontier colonist benefits. I think to make the game feel flavorful it needs to have its mechanics at least tangentially mach history. I don't care if the aforementioned England rules Gaul and has reduced France into an OPM in the Alps but it still should have control of the Isles or else its naval mechanics don't makes sense. But that is just my opinion. Then again it makes me happy to see my games follow a somewhat historical path. I know others revel in ridiculous alt history.

I will however say that the EUIV mission trees have created anew problem of numerous generic nations, which they had also resolved with the last vestiges of "National Ideas" being confined to southern Ethiopia. That does make me upset. It gives majors and those treated with Expansions an unfair advantage.