New Cultures

[SovereignGrave]

And randomised barons and mayors get the culture from...?



Then look at Hungary and say me where are the Slovaks? The Albanians? The Vlachs? Other local cultures who don't rule anything? (At least on later start dates Albanian should be there of course)

The province culture is a mixture between many factors. And Southern Italy was more influenced by Langobards then by Northern/Middle Italians.

There are quite a few cultures that aren't in the game (and there are Vlach in Hungary). And did the Langobards really have that big of an impact on Southern Italy? I'm genuinely curious because from what I can find the Langobards and Lombards refer to the same group of people, and the region named after them (Lombardy) is in Northern Italy.

 

[A_Dane]

There are quite a few cultures that aren't in the game (and there are Vlach in Hungary). And did the Langobards really have that big of an impact on Southern Italy? I'm genuinely curious because from what I can find the Langobards and Lombards refer to the same group of people, and the region named after them (Lombardy) is in Northern Italy.

Lombard principalities were pretty powerful in southern italy until the norman adventurers decided to intervene...

 

[SovereignGrave]

Lombard principalities were pretty powerful in southern italy until the norman adventurers decided to intervene...

So I assume there's no more Lombard rulers in 1066 then? That's a pity, since with the addition of Lombard with this DLC it could be interesting to play as a Lombard in Sicily in 1066 and try to reconquer Sicily and Italy. Oh well, that's what the ruler designer is for I guess.

 

[Thure]

You didn't respond to my points. My point is that within the mechanics of the game, the only thing that having Lombard culture in Southern Italy will do is cause liberation revolts and peasant uprisings to be Lombard culture. Which is not reflective of reality.

What should the culture be? Italian? The provinces were more influenced by Lombards then by Middle/Tuscan italians.

So I assume there's no more Lombard rulers in 1066 then? That's a pity, since with the addition of Lombard with this DLC it could be interesting to play as a Lombard in Sicily in 1066 and try to reconquer Sicily and Italy. Oh well, that's what the ruler designer is for I guess.

There were Lombards in 1066. But sady they were Italin in the current game. Any Italian in southern Italy in 1066 was in reality a Lombard prince.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Benevento
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Salerno

 

[SovereignGrave]

There were Lombards in 1066. But sadly they were Italin in the current game. Any Italian in southern Italy in 1066 was in reality a Lombard prince.

Oh neat. Hopefully they'll change that once the DLC comes out.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

Except the provincial population is what triggers the peasant revolts, so even your casual dismissal is wrong on its face.

This...

Italian is a much better representation of reality than lombard is. Within the limits of the game engine, classifying rebellious peasants in the non-greek part of the region as lombards would be incorrect.

...and this.

 

[Ols]

Italian is a much better representation of reality than lombard is. Within the limits of the game engine, classifying rebellious peasants in the non-greek part of the region as lombards would be incorrect.

It wouldn't be if Lombards were shown as a Germanic-Romance hybrid culture, to be honest. Having them one or the other would be inaccurate.

 

[Zolotaya]

There should be some tweaks made in the future, before release. The Saxons being a separate culture is one of the few decisions that should be non-controversial. Now, where are the Bavarians?

 

[Mr. Habba]

Italian is a much better representation of reality than lombard is. despite your protestations. Within the limits of the game engine, classifying rebellious peasants in the non-greek part of the region as lombards would be incorrect.

And making the areas Italian ruled over by Lombards would make the Lombards vanish in a few years time, thanks to independance revolts, while in reality they ruled there (in parts) until the Norman invasion of Sicily. So while the general population wasn't really Lombard (it wasn't "Italian" either, though, more like a mix of both) making them Italian would lead to even more ahistorical shenanigans.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

It wouldn't be if Lombards were shown as a Germanic-Romance hybrid culture, to be honest. Having them one or the other would be inaccurate.

The color of their culture on the map makes me think that they are classified as Central Germanic.

 

[Zolotaya]

And making the areas Italian ruled over by Lombards would make the Lombards vanish in a few years time, thanks to independance revolts, while in reality they ruled there (in parts) until the Norman invasion of Sicily. So while the general population wasn't really Lombard (it wasn't "Italian" either, though, more like a mix of both) making them Italian would lead to even more ahistorical shenanigans.

I agree with this and the same applies to the Visigoths in Spain. Until there is a revamp in the cultural spread mechanics what they have done makes perfect sense.

This might be the starting point for the Paradox team to work with eg the alpha-build that has no new cultural mechanics implemented - and thus it only shows how it would be pre-dlc release - not the final implementation.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

I have an idea, which I'll probably elaborate more in a new thread once we'll have more accurate information. One could have the Lombard culture in some areas and, in mostly central Italy, the "Roman" culture (representing VI-VII century "late" Romans). Then you have a melting pot event chain, similar to the English one, that makes all of them Italian after 800AD or something.

You could have something similar in Iberia, with "Hispanic" provinces and "Visigoth" rulers that together become Castilian, Catalan, and so on.

Oh, and the local culture-related revolts that trigger, if I remember correctly, are only the "Kingdom Liberation" revolts. These require that somebody from the local culture has held the corresponding de jure kingdom title at some point in time. It wouldn't be the case for Italy then (unless somebody codes Theodoric as "Italian", which would be weird).

 

[Colpo]

So it's basically a "Here's a Charlemagne vs. Ummayads Who-Paints-The-World-First" DLC?

 

[Zolotaya]

I have an idea, which I'll probably elaborate more in a new thread once we'll have more accurate information. One could have the Lombard culture in some areas and, in mostly central Italy, the "Roman" culture (representing VI-VII century "late" Romans). Then you have a melting pot event chain, similar to the English one, that makes all of them Italian after 800AD or something...

Lombards were a major force well into the 900's and even later in Sicily. Having "Italian" culture and an Italian kingdom and an Italian empire is one of the dumbest things Paradox did and it is one reason I dislike any start in the Italian region. It currently is more ahistorical and force-fed then anything shown for the new dlc.

 

[Kljunas]

The problem with a large Germanic Lombard culture in Italy is that even if the game follow an historical path, it will be very difficult for Italian culture to replace it. Unless changes were made to the way culture spreads, which is a possibility.

You can argue than province culture represents a "local elite", but then this elite can't assimilate into the local culture and can't be overthrown by the populace because there isn't a level of Italian Romance culture below it.

 

[Zolotaya]

... You can argue than province culture represents a "local elite", but then this elite can't assimilate into the local culture and can't be overthrown by the populace because there isn't a level of Italian Romance culture below it.

This is the "Mongolian Dilemma" in a nutshell. Which is why I am hopeful the cultural mechanics do get a major overhaul. Let me ask you this- Was there a real "Italian" identity at any time during the expanded CK2 timeline? Or perhaps, the idea of "Italian" identity did not really take hold until after?

Did Venetians think of themselves as Italian? I do not think they did. Nor Lombards or any other.

 

[Thure]

Oh believe me. I'm not debating the historical population, only what is possible within the confines of the current game. I think its laughable Italian as a culture exists in the game at all, especially in Sicily, where even Emperor Frederick is labelled Italian.

I'd prefer an Italian-Germano culture or something (meridionale?) but we have to work with that we have, so to speak. Italian and Lombard are the two extremes, I favour something in between.

Lombards at this time already were Romance people. Just the names were Germanic. There language wasn't Germanic anymore (similiar to the Normans in France). So the Langobards in South italy would speak Italian/Vulgar Latin/etc. Not a Germanic language.

It wouldn't be if Lombards were shown as a Germanic-Romance hybrid culture, to be honest. Having them one or the other would be inaccurate.

Exactly. Germanic names but there language was romance at this time.

The color of their culture on the map makes me think that they are classified as Central Germanic.

That would be totally wrong, yes. Even if they are Germanic, they should be in the group as Italian.

 

[Comradebot]

So it's basically a "Here's a Charlemagne vs. Ummayads Who-Paints-The-World-First" DLC?

With any luck the fact it's a DLC based on one of THE largest blobs in the middle ages means they're gonna have mechanics to help keep large empires on their toes and make making/keeping a blob a taller order than it is currently.

Guess we'll see.

 

[Zolotaya]

Its actually quite funny because really we are only discussing 3(?) provinces in the south, Capua, Salerno, and Benevento, everything else would be Greek or (in my opinion) latin instead of Italian (Aprutium). Langobardi would be my favoured name to reflect the thoroughly latinized character of the lombards.

I'd get behind changing the southern Lombards to Longobardi (which is what sources of the time refer to the area inhabitants as). I also agree that what is on the screeny as Italian should be "Latin" instead of Italian.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

Lombards were a major force well into the 900's and even later in Sicily. Having "Italian" culture and an Italian kingdom and an Italian empire is one of the dumbest things Paradox did and it is one reason I dislike any start in the Italian region. It currently is more ahistorical and force-fed then anything shown for the new dlc.

Ok, let's all agree on one thing: no Romance culture is properly represented in the game, all of them are reflections of today's views. Romance people in the Middle Ages formed a linguistical and cultural continuum which was in direct continuity with the late Roman Empire (something you can still see today if you are familiar with Romance dialectology, especially in parts of the Romania such as Italy and Southern France). All of the local languages were dialects of the non-standardized late Vulgar Latin; hence all the Latin and Iberian cultures that we see in game reflect labels that we associate to partitions of that continuum using modern lenses and concepts.

Having said this, you are wrong. The Lombards as a distinct group associated with the Germanic invasion (and as I think is conceived in the cultural map that we seen, given that it's associated to the areas politically controlled by the "Langobardi") ceased to exist shortly after the Frankish invasion, for they only constituted local elites which quickly assimilated into the new Frankish dominators. Eventually, however, "Lombardy" became a geographical notion, associated to a specific region in Northern Italy which is today officially the largest one (population-wise) of the country. The "Lombard league" takes its name because it united cities in that area, and the "Lombards of Sicily" were people from that area that Emperor Frederick II invited to move to the southern island. They retained nothing of the old Langobardi, specifically nothing of the language (I am talking of what is today known as "Lombard dialect" of the Italian language).