McSionnaigh's Map Project

[McSionnaigh]

When I click that link I only see:
"The Occupation of Southern Saghalin by the Russians in 1853-54 [in Japanese]"
and that would be too long behind the normal 1820 end of the game to have any need to be represented.

I mistook the source.
However this paper has English part at it's latter part and refers some Russian attacks in lattermost period of the game, there are very little description.

For more historical information about Sakhalin, see following links.

A general history of Sakhalin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakhalin#History

1806-1807 Russian expedition to Sakhalin:
http://rezanov.krasu.ru/eng/commander/sah.php
http://www.docoja.com:8080/jisho/mainword?dbname=histg&mainword=Kushunkotan
http://ci.nii.ac.jp/els/11000714722...der_no=&ppv_type=0&lang_sw=&no=1319373916&cp=

Japanese exploration of Sakhalin in 1808–1809:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305748806000739

Influence of Ming China once reached Amur region and Sakhalin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yishiha
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yongning_Temple_Stele

Some researchers claim the whole of Sakhalin had been under Qing empire's rule:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Qing_Dynasty_1820.png

 

[ConjurerDragon]

I mistook the source.
However this paper has English part at it's latter part and refers some Russian attacks in lattermost period of the game, there are very little description.

For more historical information about Sakhalin, see following links.

A general history of Sakhalin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakhalin#History

1806-1807 Russian expedition to Sakhalin:
http://rezanov.krasu.ru/eng/commander/sah.php

That is a bit lenghty description of how two russian ships under private leadership did - in game terms "destroy a japanese trading post" on Sakhalin.

http://www.docoja.com:8080/jisho/mainword?dbname=histg&mainword=Kushunkotan

Here it´s described how a japanese trading post was established on Sakhalin in 1679 and destroyed 1806.

http://ci.nii.ac.jp/els/11000714722...der_no=&ppv_type=0&lang_sw=&no=1319373916&cp=

No idea what that is - only strange letters.

Japanese exploration of Sakhalin in 1808–1809:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305748806000739

In 1808 a japanese mapped Sakhalin - seems proof to me that while they had a trading post already there in the 17th century that Sakhalin should stay terra incognita to japan at least at the start of all AGCEEP scenarios starting 1419, 1520 and 1648.

Influence of Ming China once reached Amur region and Sakhalin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yishiha
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yongning_Temple_Stele

A traveller from Ming China has visited Sakhalin (by travelling down the amur through Manchuria). However that does not translate into having Sakhalin being part of Ming China. It should not even mean that in the game Ming China knows Sakahlin - that is because knowing a province means much more in the game than just being aware that there is an island. Knowing a province in the game means that a state is able to send colonists and armies there - and that Ming China should not do at the start of the game where Manchuria is more or less independant from Ming China. A player can use his first explorer to discover Sakhalin when he wants to be able to build a trading post there.

Some researchers claim the whole of Sakhalin had been under Qing empire's rule:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Qing_Dynasty_1820.png

And in the small print right next to Sakhalin I read "claimed by Quing but not explored". That translates to me that the Quing should know the province but not own it.

So IMO there is no reason to split Sakhalin into two provinces during the games timeframe 1419 -1820. It should start unowned and free for everyone (e.g. Ming, Japan) to establish trading posts there.

 

[Garbon]

Revised map files for AGCEEP1.59 beta 3 are ready.
In 15th c., Ainu, native people of Hokkaido, southern Sakhalin and Kuril islands had not been under good control of Japanese government. Their area was called Ezochi(蝦夷地).
In contrast, Japanese influence reached to only southern most of Hokkaido as Wajinchi(和人地).

Yeah but do you think it would make sense to represent the Ainu with a tag (i.e. marking them as a unified state)? Because otherwise by adding new provinces, you're simply helping Japan establish the island as a significant power based. Isn't that hard to wipe out natives in a province and then it is a quick path to establish each province as cities via colonists. Then instead of one province in Hokkaido, you've given Japan 3. Similar notion with Sakhalin although I could see Conjurer's suggestion of it under TI until someone discovers it.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

Yeah but do you think it would make sense to represent the Ainu with a tag (i.e. marking them as a unified state)? Because otherwise by adding new provinces, you're simply helping Japan establish the island as a significant power based. Isn't that hard to wipe out natives in a province and then it is a quick path to establish each province as cities via colonists. Then instead of one province in Hokkaido, you've given Japan 3. Similar notion with Sakhalin although I could see Conjurer's suggestion of it under TI until someone discovers it.

How about changing the japanese national core on Ezochi/Hokkaido into a claimcore?
That could represent that Japan only had full control of the island after 1457.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezochi#History

 

[McSionnaigh]

So IMO there is no reason to split Sakhalin into two provinces during the games timeframe 1419 -1820. It should start unowned and free for everyone (e.g. Ming, Japan) to establish trading posts there.

However, Japanese expansion to Sakhalin had started before they confirmed Sakhalin as an island. If Sakhalin has only one province, we will make sure whole of the island when we become able to colonise it. Such situation is not historical and not desirable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamiya_Rinzō
Old maps of northern Japanese archipelago:
http://archives.c.fun.ac.jp/oldmaps/include/main/?search=&limitfrom=20&action=main&type=list
http://www.lib.hokudai.ac.jp/modules/tinyd42/index.php?id=10
http://www.lib.hokudai.ac.jp/modules/tinyd42/index.php?id=11

There are old maps befrore Mamiya Rinzo's exploration in 1809 which depict (northern)Sakhalin and Karafuto(Japanese southern Sakhalin) as separated lands.
http://www.lib.hokudai.ac.jp/cgi-bin/hoppodb/record.cgi?id=0D000590000000000
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/cccp/camera/HoppouRyoudo/HoppouMAP/m5_1.JPG

Then there is another reason from ethnological aspect.
While southern Sakhalin was Ainu region, northern Sakhalin was a land of Tugusic and Paleoasian ethnic groups.
http://enviro-map.com/sakhalin
In FTG game, we can view native culture of neutral provinces easily, and we can add new culture unlimitedly. It is possible to detail aboriginal cultures.

Yeah but do you think it would make sense to represent the Ainu with a tag (i.e. marking them as a unified state)? Because otherwise by adding new provinces, you're simply helping Japan establish the island as a significant power based. Isn't that hard to wipe out natives in a province and then it is a quick path to establish each province as cities via colonists. Then instead of one province in Hokkaido, you've given Japan 3. Similar notion with Sakhalin although I could see Conjurer's suggestion of it under TI until someone discovers it.

I'm negative about to allot a country tag to Ainu. Ainu haven't had their own country and unified power.
But they have own culture.
Generally, Ainu language isn't included amongst Altaic languages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_language
To add Provinces in Ainu area, in any case we need decide to add Ainu culture tag or not.

In my splitting provinces of those islands, I referred Newfoundland, an island of similar climate, area and territorial dispute history. Newfoundland in the game is splitted into 3 provinces and disputed between England and France. Now, Hokkaido has over ten times population of Newfoundland. So that I guess Hokkaido might have much more capasity.
Three provinces namely Oshima(Wajinchi, 和人地), Nishi-Ezo(Nishi-Ezochi, 西蝦夷地) and Higashi-Ezo(Higashi-Ezochi, 東蝦夷地), is based on division in Edo era.
http://pucchi.net/hokkaido/geo/area.php
Nishi-Ezochi, literally "west-Ezo-land" is actually northern Hokkaido (with western coast), and Higashi-Ezochi, literally "east-Ezo-land" is actually southern Hokkaido(with eastern coast).

 

[Blaster]

Finaly some good news.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

However, Japanese expansion to Sakhalin had started before they confirmed Sakhalin as an island. If Sakhalin has only one province, we will make sure whole of the island when we become able to colonnse it. Such situation is not historical and not desirable.

If the japanese knew that it was an island or part of the mainland as they established their trading post there is for the game completely meaningless. The AGCEEP scenarios start in 1419, 1520 and 1648 at a time when the whole island of Sakhalin should still be terra incognita to Japan.

As the historical japanese trading post on Sakhalin was destroyed by russian forces it does not matter it it´s on the southern or northern half of the island or represents Sakhalin as a whole - first it´s a japanese trading post and if it´s burned down the island is unowned again.

Having two trading posts on an island should not be a reason for two provinces - else we could split St. Marten / Martinique too
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sint_Maarten

Then there is another reason from ethnological aspect.
While southern Sakhalin was Ainu region, northern Sakhalin was a land of Tugusic and Paleoasian ethnic groups.
http://enviro-map.com/sakhalin
In FTG game, we can view native culture of neutral provinces easily, and we can add new culture unlimitedly. It is possible to detail aboriginal cultures.

Is Ainu a culture we would need? If the japanese effectively controlled Ezochi after a while then either the island should turn from ainu to japanese or Japan would need to get Ainu culture. In both cases from a gamist point of view "Ainu" culture would be useless for the greater part of the game.

In my splitting provinces of those islands, I referred Newfoundland, an island of similar climate, area and territorial dispute history. Newfoundland in the game is splitted into 3 provinces and disputed between England and France. Now, Hokkaido has over ten times population of Newfoundland. So that I guess Hokkaido might have much more capasity.

Why? Newfoundland was discovered and disputed much earlier than Sakhalin and it was disputed by the times great colonial powers England and France and was involved in major wars when France lost all it´s nowadays canadian possessions. Sakhalin on the other hand is terra incognita for most of the game for most countries and is a colonial backwater in which Russia only gained interest after their colonisation reached the Pacific, so for the very last part of the games timeframe.

Three provinces namely Oshima(Wajinchi, 和人地), Nishi-Ezo(Nishi-Ezochi, 西蝦夷地) and Higashi-Ezo(Higashi-Ezochi, 東蝦夷地), is based on division in Edo era.
http://pucchi.net/hokkaido/geo/area.php
Nishi-Ezochi, literally "west-Ezo-land" is actually northern Hokkaido (with western coast), and Higashi-Ezochi, literally "east-Ezo-land" is actually southern Hokkaido(with eastern coast).

Provinces in the game are not "provinces" of historical states. Else Poland-Lithuania would have nearly 100 provinces
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Podział_administracyjny_I_RP.png
and the area of the holy roman empire 300 ;-)

Edit: This discussion reminds me of the EU2 clone "asian chapters" that laid the focus of the game in the asian area - and then two provinces might make sense.

 

[Garbon]

Why? Newfoundland was discovered and disputed much earlier than Sakhalin and it was disputed by the times great colonial powers England and France and was involved in major wars when France lost all it´s nowadays canadian possessions. Sakhalin on the other hand is terra incognita for most of the game for most countries and is a colonial backwater in which Russia only gained interest after their colonisation reached the Pacific, so for the very last part of the games timeframe.

I think that bit was with regards to Hokkaido but I'm at the same conclusion for that. Hokkaido shouldn't be particularly appealing and Japan shouldn't be contending with any other powers for it. 3 province Hokkaido to 1 province Sardinia is just bizarre.

Edit: This discussion reminds me of the EU2 clone "asian chapters" that laid the focus of the game in the asian area - and then two provinces might make sense.

Not even really as there is very little positive to say about including a two-province Sakhalin. Provinces would be better spent on Honshu and Korea in such. (And that's indeed what happened in the Asian Chapters )

 

[McSionnaigh]

Why? Newfoundland was discovered and disputed much earlier than Sakhalin and it was disputed by the times great colonial powers England and France and was involved in major wars when France lost all it´s nowadays canadian possessions. Sakhalin on the other hand is terra incognita for most of the game for most countries and is a colonial backwater in which Russia only gained interest after their colonisation reached the Pacific, so for the very last part of the games timeframe.

Japanese first settlement to Sakhalin is 1679. There should be at least 140years of territorial competing between China and Japan in the game's timeframe.

the following is list of islands sorted by size with the number of their provinces.

Greenland - 2,130,800km² with 2 provinces and PTI.
New Guinea - 785,753km² with 3 provinces and PTI.
Borneo - 748,168km² with 6 provinces and PTI.
Madagascar - 587,713km² with 2 provinces and PTI.
Sumatra - 443,066km² with 4 provinces.
Honshu - 225,800km² with 4 provinces.
Great Britain - 209,331km² with 15 provinces.
Sulawesi - 180,681km² with 4 provinces.
South Island - 145,836km² with 1 province.
Java - 138,794km² with 4 provinces.
North Island - 111,583km² with 3 provinces.
Luzon - 109,965km² with 2 provinces.
Newfoundland - 108,860km² with 3 provinces.
Cuba - 105,806km² with 3 provinces.
Iceland - 101,826km² with 1 province.
Mindanao - 97,530km² with 1 province.
Ireland - 84,421km² with 5 province.
Hokkaido - 78,719km² with 1 province.
Hispaniola - 73,929km² with 3 provinces.
Sakhalin - 72,493km² with PTI.
Sri Lanka - 65,268km² with 2 provinces.
Tasmania - 65,022km² with 1 province.
Isla Grande de Tierra del Fuego - 47,401km² with 1 province.
Marajó - 40,100km² with 1 province.
Kyushu - 37,437km² with 1 province.
Hainan - 33,210km² with 1 province.
Vancouver Island - 31,285km² with no province (incorporated with the mainland).
Timor - 28,418km² with 1 province.
Sicily - 25,662km² with 2 provinces.
Sardinia - 23,949km² with 1 province.
Shikoku - 18,545km² with 1 province.
Halmahera - 18,040km² with 1 province.
Selam - 17,454km² with 1 province.
New Caledonia - 16,648km² with no province (incorporated with the ocean).
Sumbawa - 14,386km² with 1/3 province.
Flores - 14,154km² with 1 province.
Negros - 13,074km² with no province (incorporated with the ocean).
Samar - 12,849km² with 1 province.
Palawan - 12,189km² witn 1 province.
Panay - 12,011km² with no province (incorporated with the ocean).

If you think that Hokkaido and Sakhalin shouldn't have more than one provinces, you will give special treatment to Sri Lanka and Hispaniola.

I think that bit was with regards to Hokkaido but I'm at the same conclusion for that. Hokkaido shouldn't be particularly appealing and Japan shouldn't be contending with any other powers for it. 3 province Hokkaido to 1 province Sardinia is just bizarre.

EU2/FTG vanilla map regards Europe as special area. Even the area of Sardinia comes after Sicily, the island with 2 provinces; Sicily is the specially "gifted" in the number of provinces. European islands like Cyprus, Corsica, Gotland, Sjælland and so on, are with special smallness to have one province. If you had needed specialness in Europe, AGCEEP didn't need modification to rest of the world.

Vanilla map's PTI covers areas of less concern with Europe. If you want to reveal it, you will need resolution to stop giving special treatment to the western world.

Division of Hokakido and Sakhalin is important for the sake of AGCEEP's purpose "historical accuracy". Do you forget what is wanted by AGCEEP?

Provinces in the game are not "provinces" of historical states. Else Poland-Lithuania would have nearly 100 provinces
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Podział_administracyjny_I_RP.png
and the area of the holy roman empire 300 ;-)

Look at this.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Langues_de_la_France.svg
It's map showing the languages (and dialects) of France. Ｉｆ you skilled in vanilla map, you should familiar to this figure. Vanilla map's France is largely based on division in Ancien Régime.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_France_1477-fr.svg
Those provinces are very correspondent with actual situation geographically and culturally.
Ｉｎ addition, more examples of correspondence between provinces in the game and the real such as Korean 8 provinces in AC and many province names of China. I think that real provinces are superior than "original divisions" without geographical, cultural and historical knowledge.

Provinces would be better spent on Honshu and Korea in such. (And that's indeed what happened in the Asian Chapters )

To realise alternative Asian Chapters might be good way to develop AGCEEP.
I have intention to add provinces in Japan proper and Korea, If how to reconstruct provinces in Japan proper is decided.
I will release maps changed gradually. To reduce points to change in other files, remote(in/near PTI and on the sea) regions with less influence are given priority. This policy makes divided Hokkaido to untouched Honshu.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

Japanese first settlement to Sakhalin is 1679. There should be at least 140years of territorial competing between China and Japan in the game's timeframe.

Ｔｈｅ following is list of islands sorted by size with the number of their provinces.

If you think that Hokkaido and Sakhalin shouldn't have more than one provinces, you will give special treatment to Sri Lanka and Hispaniola.
...

You really can´t compare Sakhalin to other islands like - Great Britain. Geographical size is really no matter for the decision how much provinces an area should have.
Decisive is how important the area was and how intensive it´s ownership was challenged and divided. However even if that belongs to another thread I would agree with you that for the colony in Greenland 1 province would be sufficient.

So Great Britain should keep it´s provinces as it´s so much more important than the backwater trading outpost at an island that is terra incognita for most of the countries for most of the game. ;-)
Sri Lanka and Hispaniola in the games timeframe actually were discovered and settled much earlier than Sakhalin and both were divided between major colonial powers. Sri Lanka between Portugal and the Netherlands and Hispaniola between France and Spain. Hispanionala is an extremely bad comparison, as Saint Dominique (the french western part of the island) was for a time the RICHEST colony of France.

And as the first settlement of Japan is - as a mere trading post - 1679 that means as I already wrote that the island is and can stay terra incognita even to Japan for all 3 existing scenarios of AGCEEP at the start of the scenario.

EU2/FTG vanilla map regards Europe as special area. Even the area of Sardinia comes after Sicily, the island with 2 provinces; Sicily is the specially "gifted" in the number of provinces. European islands like Cyprus, Corsica, Gotland, Sjælland and so on, are with special smallness to have one province. If you had needed specialness in Europa, AGCEEP doesn't need modification to rest of the world.

Sicily is a rich and important island - it was even an independant kingdom long before Sakhalin ever was heard of in Europe and long before the first trading post was established there.

Vanilla map's PTI covers areas of less concern with Europe. If you want to reveal it, you will need resolution to stop giving special treatment to the western world.
Division of Hokakido and Sakhalin is important for the sake of AGCEEP's purpose "historical accuracy". Do you forget what is wanted by AGCEEP?

Not at all. Historical accuracy in this case means to me that any island that starts the first 200 years of the game as terra incognita and then historically became only *a tradingpost* has no need of more than 1 province. If Sakhalin would be split then both provinces would need to be so poor that Japan actually would lose income by the increase in techcosts for the additional province to prevent that Japan gets a boost that would make it able to succeed in conquering Korea or the mainland.

...
Those provinces are very correspondent with actual situation geographically and culturally.
Ｉｎ addition, more examples of correspondence between provinces in the game and the real such as Korean 8 provinces in AC and many province names of China. I think that real provinces are superior than "original divisions" without geographical, cultural and historical knowledge.

Comparing the provinces of a major player like FRANCE to Sakhalin? A good comparison - because Japan should never be able to do what France does in the game Sakhalin MUST stay 1 province trading post to prevent Japan from gaining any more income or manpower from there.

To realise alternative Asian Chapters might be good way to develop AGCEEP.
I have intention to add provinces in Japan proper and Korea, If how to reconstruct provinces in Japan proper is decided.
I will release maps changed gradually. To reduce points to change in other files, remote(in/near PTI and on the sea) regions with less influence are given priority. This policy makes divided Hokkaido to untouched Honshu.

"Asian Chapters" did not try to create a historical model of the world. It did just what EU2 did for Europa now for Asia - placing the focus and giving greater importance (and likely too much of that) to a different area. However regardless on which continent we put the focus - Sakhalin is never more important than any island that has been discovered 200 years before or that was an independant kingdom or just more than a trading post.

I don´t understand what you mean with your last sentence.

 

[McSionnaigh]

I'm back!

http://www.mediafire.com/?5isun8xv3srcjmo

This is my latest(6th) version of the map.

In this map, some new provinces added; And some geographical mistakes revised.
In addition to former version's modification, this version has the changes shown below.

-New provinces on PTI and the sea(Mongolia, North of Japan, Ryukyu islands and Tarim basin).
-New region Mongolia and new areas Inner Mongolia, Outer Mongolia, Dzungaria and Tarim.
-Positions of the provinces in Central Asia(including Aral sea) are revised.
-Chinese provinces are reconstructed; Sichuan basin is resumed and lengths of rivers are changed properly. Through their positions and names are changed, the number of the provinces isn't changed.
-Provinces of East Turkestan are reconstructed with added provinces.
-Wrong coordinates at ID: 1528, 1551, 1541, 1501 and 1487(Each city, manufactory and army had common coordinates) changed.
-Province names on addendum.csv are moved to provinces.csv for editor-friendliness.
-Two language sets of localization files.

It makes us able to add Oirat(Dzungar Empire) and Chagatai Khanate breakaway states. Because it's not ultimate form, there will be more series of modification on the map in the future.

You really can´t compare Sakhalin to other islands like - Great Britain. Geographical size is really no matter for the decision how much provinces an area should have.
Decisive is how important the area was and how intensive it´s ownership was challenged and divided. However even if that belongs to another thread I would agree with you that for the colony in Greenland 1 province would be sufficient.

How rich or important is not suit for criterion for how many provinces in a fixed area.

If your opinion is appropriate for the purpose adding new provinces, India and China will need more provinces, because they were more populated, richer and civilised from older age than Europe.
Attempts like that are already existing. Two maps named MyMapAGCEEP and ExtraWATK respectively, are rejected as a official map of AGCEEP; Because they had too many provinces on existing areas and needed large changes on existing files.
Those maps have very large difference between smallest and largest provinces.
Conditions such like harm geographical accuracy. If you neglect geographical accuracy, even historical accuracy will be spoiled, and AGCEEP will be capable of losing it's purpose finally.

Why do you think that an island with 948km long can be conquered by only few years of sending colonists? Sakhalin's length is a match for Great Britain's which expressed by 8 provinces long. If there is single province Sakhalin, it will be longest province ever which isn't able to be shown in single screen at maximum zoom.
It's unprecedentedly long and just ugly.

Not at all. Historical accuracy in this case means to me that any island that starts the first 200 years of the game as terra incognita and then historically became only *a tradingpost* has no need of more than 1 province. If Sakhalin would be split then both provinces would need to be so poor that Japan actually would lose income by the increase in techcosts for the additional province to prevent that Japan gets a boost that would make it able to succeed in conquering Korea or the mainland.

Your worry is irrelevant.
Already, AGCEEP has events to lose Japanese core provinces(casus belli) at Korea before the time of Japanese first settlement to Sakhalin.

And Your worry is too small to what will occur in the map.
By adding Mongolia, need of adjustment of power-balance between countries arose.
And there will be many new countries and provinces in the future.
Anyway, new map and series of readjustment of provinces data would be inseparable.

Then why won't you remodify the map, if you don't prefer it?
Because this map is devoted to AGCEEP, everybody want to contribute in AGCEEP can remodify it.

 

[Pied-Noir]

Good luck to you!

 

[ConjurerDragon]

...
How rich or important is not suit for criterion for how many provinces in a fixed area.

Oh but it is. If we look only at geographical size Greenland would have 16 provinces and noone wants that ^^

If your opinion is appropriate for the purpose adding new provinces, India and China will need more provinces, because they were more populated, richer and civilised from older age than Europe.

Older ages or being civilized earlier are uninteresting for the normal 1419-1820 timeline of the game. Else Egypt had 200 provinces and the Rest of the World perhaps 2 ^^
The size of the population can´t be the only relevant criterium either because if it were then why did China become a colonial backwater pushed around by european nations and did not rule the world in 1820 because it had the highest population (and therefore according to your argument double the provinces of any european power?

Attempts like that are already existing. Two maps named MyMapAGCEEP and ExtraWATK respectively, are rejected as a official map of AGCEEP; Because they had too many provinces on existing areas and needed large changes on existing files.

And yet those maps are in use in their own mods and some people like to play on them.

Those maps have very large difference between smallest and largest provinces.
Conditions such like harms geographical accuracy. If you neglect geographical accuracy, even historical accuracy will be spoiled, and AGCEEP will be capable of losing it's purpose finally.

Very well - let ´s use your rule of "geographical accuracy" and give Greenland 16 provinces and Japan *1*. ;-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_outlying_territories_by_total_area

Why do you think that an island with 948km long can be conquered by only few years of sending colonists? Sakhalin's length is a match for Great Britain's which expressed by 8 provinces long. If there is single province Sakhalin, it will be longest province ever which isn't able to be shown in single screen at maximum zoom.
It's unprecedentedly long and just ugly.

Sure it´s ugly - luckily it´s hidden by terra incognita for most countries for the larger part of the game ^^
If it´s is not shown completely in maximum zoom - then simply zoom out and voila - you can see it completely ;-)
Sakhalin is in gameterms not more than a trading post - and even that only from the 17th century onward. Giving it more importance by giving it two provinces would only be accurate long after FtG´s timeframe in the Russo-Japanese rivalry in the late 19th century.

Your worry is irrelevant.
Already, AGCEEP has events to lose Japanese core provinces(casus belli) at Korea before the time of Japanese first settlement to Sakhalin.

Cores are only one of the reasons states in the game wage wars - if the AI sees an opportunity it will declare wars without cores too.

And Your worry is too small to what will occur in the map.
By adding Mongolia, need of adjustment of power-balance between countries arose.

Really? Why? Isn´t most of the area empty deserts where only a some nomads lived and the provinces so poor that their ownership is a loss for every country?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taklamakan
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Deserts.png

And there will be many new countries and provinces in the future.
Anyway, new map and series of readjustment of provinces data would be inseparable.

Then why won't you remodify the map, if you don't prefer it?
Because this map is devoted to AGCEEP, everybody want to contribute in AGCEEP can remodify it.

"may" not "can". I simply have no idea how to modify the map in any way so I can´t remodify it.

 

[McSionnaigh]

Oh but it is. If we look only at geographical size Greenland would have 16 provinces and noone wants that ^^

Most of Greenland is uninhabited area covered with snow and ice.
How do you settle immigrants in the lands below the freezing point throughout the year? It's not good decision to give provinces to areas in extreme climate which don't allow activities of human beings. Inner Greenland should be kept as PTI.

Sakhalin is inhabited north to south. To advocate historical accuracy, even tribal area of indigenous peoples shouldn't be skimped. To decorate the map in factors don't influence obviously to the game play, is also important work to pursue accurate map mod.

Older ages or being civilized earlier are uninteresting for the normal 1419-1820 timeline of the game. Else Egypt had 200 provinces and the Rest of the World perhaps 2 ^^
The size of the population can´t be the only relevant criterium either because if it were then why did China become a colonial backwater pushed around by european nations and did not rule the world in 1820 because it had the highest population (and therefore according to your argument double the provinces of any european power?

I regard a province as an area of influence of a cite to become a regional center of the economy, culture, military and politics, which is called "city" in the game.
Positions and the number of the provinces should be decided by where are and how many spots to conquer. Because in the battle system of the game, a fall of the city means province occupied, extremely large provinces makes only thousands of armies able to control unnaturally extensive area.

Asian population power is sourced by paddy rice, grain with superior harvest and calories per unit area than other crops like wheat, and without need for crop rotation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_rotation
In tropical monsoon area, people can harvest rice three times in the year.
Thus South Asia, South-East Asia and East Asia have more population capacity than Europe in the time frame of the game.
Management of watercourses to grow rice needs cooperation of the people in large-scale.
Therefore rural communities in rice-eating area have more members than European's.
This means that richness and populousness in the area should not be expressed by the number of provinces but be done by province income and population of the city.

Thus there weren't any needs for that China and other Asian countries conquer or colonise other areas. Because paddy rice needs large amount of water, East Asian peoples didn't expand out of the monsoon area.
In the time frame of the game, they didn't need to colonise oversea lands for overpopulation but Europeans.

My English language isn't so good that you wouldn't be well satisfied by my explanation.
If you want to know about it deeply, read Jared Diamond's book Guns, Germs, and Steel. It will answer to your questions.

Cores are only one of the reasons states in the game wage wars - if the AI sees an opportunity it will declare wars without cores too.

In present situation, Chinese conquest to Japan is more possible.
Great difference between them can't be gone easily by only few provinces.
And you already know that it's not only result from getting colonies to make the country rich. Provinces with low income makes some problems to it's owner.
You can understand why Castilla's tech speed is slower than other European countries ;-)

Really? Why? Isn´t most of the area empty deserts where only a some nomads lived and the provinces so poor that their ownership is a loss for every country?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taklamakan
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Deserts.png

At least before the appearance of firearms in battlefields, equestrian peoples had military superiority to agricultural peoples. They used to plunder farms.
Situation such like had occurred repeatedly in the histories of China and Russia, adjoining lands of nomadic world. Dzungar Empire ("Oirat" in the tag repository of AGCEEP Web Site) was the last Nomadic Empire prospered by the way such like.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zunghar_Khanate

 

[Garbon]

Hmm...well I don't think the AGCEEP is in pursuit of an accurate map mod above all else. While historical accuracy is important, this is also a game / it would be inaccurate to see multiple cities form in Sakhalin / odd to reprsent Sakhalin or Hokkaido as so strategically important.

That said I'm personally still in favor of incorporating you're first version of changes that modified province names and removed the PTI connections for Kazan and Uzbek.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

Most of Greenland is uninhabited area covered with snow and ice.

So you agree with me that geographical size alone is no criterium for the number of provinces. Neither for Greenland, nor for Sakhalin.

Asian population power is sourced by paddy rice, grain with superior harvest and calories per unit area than other crops like wheat, and without need for crop rotation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_rotation
In tropical monsoon area, people can harvest rice three times in the year.

There is no "rice" good in the game. Neither wheat.

Thus South Asia, South-East Asia and East Asia have more population capacity than Europe in the time frame of the game.

At least they have more population. That already is reflected in the game by much higher values of population in the existing asian provinces of FtG.

Management of watercourses to grow rice needs cooperation of the people in large-scale.
Therefore rural communities in rice-eating area have more members than European's.
This means that richness and populousness in the area should not be expressed by the number of provinces but be done by province income and population of the city.

Not by number of provinces - so you agree that asian countries DO NOT need more provinces too? ;-)

Thus there weren't any needs for that China and other Asian countries conquer or colonise other areas. Because paddy rice needs large amount of water, East Asian peoples didn't expand out of the monsoon area.

Really? Why then did the Quing conquer Dsungaria, Mongolia or Tibet or the japanese established a presence Sakhalin? Or are these areas part of the monsoon area and I´m mistaken?

In the time frame of the game, they didn't need to colonise oversea lands for overpopulation but Europeans.

Really? Why then did starvation and famines happen in China too or huge numbers of chinese left the land to go to California once it was settled?

My English language isn't so good that you wouldn't be well satisfied by my explanation.

Your english is understable and better than that of others I´ve read or heard. Only in some sentences I don´t understand your meaning.

 

[Garbon]

Broke this out into its own thread

 

[ConjurerDragon]

The readme.txt file of the zip file in your post 1 contains gibberish. Are those some asian letters that my windwos can´t display or what is the meaning of that? If it´s asian letters could you perhaps translate it all to ASCII so that all can read it?

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￾y˜a–ó‚̃x￾[ƒX￾z

￾B–¼˜a–óƒtƒ@ƒCƒ‹￾ihttp://hayasoft.com/hiko/paradox/other/source/up0712.zip￾j￾ì￾¬ŽÒ—l


￾y‰ü–ó‚ÌŽQ￾l￾z

￾B–¼‚Ì“Ç‚Ý•û - EU2 Wiki
http://stanza-citta.com/eu2/index.php?%BD%A3%CC%BE%A4%CE%C6%C9%A4%DF%CA%FD


￾yMagellan‚ÌŽg—p–@￾z

DOMPAM—l
http://stanza-citta.com/eu2/index.php?MOD/MAPMOD-TUTORIAL

Soar—l
http://soarboxroom.web.fc2.com/FTG-Magellan.html


‚¨‚æ‚Ñ
2ch EU2ƒXƒŒ‚ÌŠF—l




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Edit: And you haven´t registered your game yet?

 

[Toio]

Hmm...well I don't think the AGCEEP is in pursuit of an accurate map mod above all else. While historical accuracy is important, this is also a game / it would be inaccurate to see multiple cities form in Sakhalin / odd to reprsent Sakhalin or Hokkaido as so strategically important.

That said I'm personally still in favor of incorporating you're first version of changes that modified province names and removed the PTI connections for Kazan and Uzbek.

I agree.........we assume that todays borders should be used for yesterdays history. Map borders can always be different

 

[McSionnaigh]

sapristi!

Edit: And you haven´t registered your game yet?

It's a tragic thing in the reverse side of the earth, that many Japanese FTG users can't register their game in My Games. Because the type of FTG most available in Japan, localised by Cyber Front doesn't have its product key. The FTG I bought is with inferiority than the original (The second coming of the nightmare of AC ).
http://www.cyberfront.co.jp/title/for_the_glory/

The readme.txt file of the zip file in your post 1 contains gibberish. Are those some asian letters that my windwos can´t display or what is the meaning of that? If it´s asian letters could you perhaps translate it all to ASCII so that all can read it?

It is written what is it, how to use it, changed points from the vanilla, history of the updates, to-do list and acknowledgements.
To-do includes the following.
-Destroy remaining wrong place names.
-Make Ottoman Empire's capital Edirne.
-Add provinces in Japan and Korea.
-Remove PTI at Ural region.
-Add countries.

Not by number of provinces - so you agree that asian countries DO NOT need more provinces too? ;-)

East Asia is area with outstanding large provinces.
Do you really think that it's proper three provinces Honshu?
Can you answer why Great Britain has five times provinces to Honshu?
Those things are only originated from that the game was "Europa" Universalis concepted as European only historical game.

If correctness of Asian history is wanted, more Asian provinces will be needed.
In the status quo, to produce accurate Japanese history is impossible by geographical restriction, as well as even without breakaway states of Sengoku period.

Really? Why then did the Quing conquer Dsungaria, Mongolia or Tibet or the japanese established a presence Sakhalin? Or are these areas part of the monsoon area and I´m mistaken?

Really? Why then did starvation and famines happen in China too or huge numbers of chinese left the land to go to California once it was settled?

That's good question!

Through sometimes Chinese Empires had expanded to bordered areas beyond the Great wall, they weren't the China Han people ruled, so called not true China.
Liao, Jin, Yuan and Qing are conquest dynasties of northern equestrian peoples.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_Dynasties

Ming dynasty had once conquered Manchuria(realm of Jurchen tribes, ancestor of Manchu people) in the reign of Yongle Emperor(start date of 1419 scenario, so independent Manchus is unnatural).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yongle_Emperor
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ming-Empire2.jpg

However in the reign of Xuande Emperor(1425-1435), he decided to abandon Manchuria and Vietnam and the territory of Ming dynasty was reduced.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuande_Emperor

After independence from Yuan dynasty, Ming Empire's attack to Mongolia had been lasting. However they didn't conquer Mongolia entirely. Their way to "conquest" is to force the other countries to pay tribute and its local ruling systems were retained.
And their saying "tribute" was virtually trade. With many return for the tribute to enhance national prestige, each trade often ended up to Chinese deficit. It was nominal subjection by paying the wealth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tributaries_of_Imperial_China
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimi_System

Too much ”tribute” makes Chinese court the financial troubles.
Once Oirat Mongols headed by Esen taishi sent many trade missions to China far more than agreed numbers. The events made China going to war against Oirat.
In this war, Zhengtong Emperor had been captured by Oirat, the event named Tumu Crisis(土木之變), event ID:10001 "The Emperor has been captured" in AGCEEP. After that, Ming dynasty was weakening gradually.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumu_Crisis

After Zheng He's navigation, Ming dynasty inhibited maritime activities, because expanding to overseas is very expensive. In also AGCEEP, if you want to continue Chinese exploring, you will be forced to pay large amount of money.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haijin

Qing Dynasty possess the vast of area out of China proper. There were five ethnic groups authorised in Qing China namely Manchu(满洲族), Mongolian(蒙古族), Tibetan(藏族) , Muslims(回族) and Han Chinese(漢族); Realms of each people was ruled separately. Because Qing Dynasty was ruled by Manchurian emperor, Han people was controlled by Manchurian people. It was inhibited that Han people's intrusion into other ethnic group's areas. Influx of Han Chinese into Manchuria and Mongolia was occurred after the end of the game(Victoria's part).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willow_Palisade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuang_Guandong
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gada_Meiren

As well as, it wasn't for the purpose to settle but for trade(IMO it's better that Japanese AI colonisation is only as trading posts), Japanese expansion to the north. Different from China's case, Japanese trade with Ainu was nearly economical exploitation.

Japanese northern expansion was very slow; for many hundreds of years, Ainu population had coexisted equally with Japanese in Hokkaido (it's very different to the case of Native Americans and Europeans).
it was difficult that a people expand their territory latitudinally without certain technologies(provinces with low income in the game express this fact). If they had wanted to immigrate to area with harsh climate difficult to spent agricultural life, they needed to change their lifestyle.
After all, Japanese territorial interest was triggered by Russian expansion, to defend the territory.

Your english is understable and better than that of others I´ve read or heard. Only in some sentences I don´t understand your meaning.

Even with large help of dictionaries and spell-check, it's the never guessed honour that my writing out of the mother language can make people of overseas understand

Hmm...well I don't think the AGCEEP is in pursuit of an accurate map mod above all else. While historical accuracy is important, this is also a game / it would be inaccurate to see multiple cities form in Sakhalin / odd to reprsent Sakhalin or Hokkaido as so strategically important.

That said I'm personally still in favor of incorporating you're first version of changes that modified province names and removed the PTI connections for Kazan and Uzbek.

Thanks a lot.

I think that it's difficult to add new provinces immediately.
They will needs some change to existing other files and in absent of other members of The High Council, exhaust you.
Your solo activity as a council member is also known to Japanese EU2/FTG community and make them admire.　In the stead of the people with not good English, I say gratitude to you.

By the way...

http://hayasoft.com/hiko/paradox/other/source/up4317.zip

This is my original hta tool to salvage the people suffering from inputting the coordinates, and manage Magellan easily.
It visualises and arranges data of the setting file.
As well as it executes Magellan's files by handy way.
By the help of this, I can find inconvenience of the map easily.

Its faults, through it can deal with two language codes, written in only Japanese, and it can deal with only EU2 files yet (at the present, I made FTG files by using Cool-Toxic 's conversion tool together).
I going to complete it.

If everyone become able to modify map files by it's completion.