Let the ruling classes tremble – an Interactive Revolutionary AAR

[BigBadBob]

Free speech is essential, for without that liberty we have no right to say we are better than bourgeois nations like the USA, where the only oppression of free thought is conducted by people themselves. This sort of censorship is the one your precious "stateless society" needs.

 

[Communard]

Freedom of political opinion is of paramount importance. A state which does not listen to its people cannot claim to be a "people's state".

 

[Konnigratz]

Freedom of political opinion is of paramount importance. A state which does not listen to its people cannot claim to be a "people's state".

I agree. However, it is equally important to prevent anyone spouting anti-Revolutionary ideas from entering the People's Party. While they should not be persecuted for their views, they also cannot expect non-socialist views to be represented in the socialist governing body of a Socialist State.

 

[unmerged(252567)]

Do we need a Party Constitution and a State Constitution, just to lay out the separation?

 

[Communard]

I agree. However, it is equally important to prevent anyone spouting anti-Revolutionary ideas from entering the People's Party. While they should not be persecuted for their views, they also cannot expect non-socialist views to be represented in the socialist governing body of a Socialist State.

The problem comes, comrade, when you try to define "counter-revolutionary". In its entire history, has the People's Party ever had a member which claimed to be so? The Democrats and True Germans claimed that their views were compatible with revolutionary socialism. Who is to decide wether they are? If we allow the Chairman to then this is a carte blanche to ban any faction but his own. For surely you believe that only your faction is the truly "revolutionary" one.

Besides, what do we have to fear from them? Do you trust the people so little that you think they would vote for someone who would re-introduce capitalism? The idea is preposterous! This paranoia has no basis.

A state which is not challenged becomes stagnant and corrupt. All tyrannies in history have shown us this.Better to have divergent views (Leninism, Anarchism etc.) within the Party, challenging, scrutinizing and criticising the ruling faction so that we may develop our ideas than a dogmatic adherence to the ideas of dead men. That would be truly reactionary.

 

[Enewald]

I agree. However, it is equally important to prevent anyone spouting anti-Revolutionary ideas from entering the People's Party. While they should not be persecuted for their views, they also cannot expect non-socialist views to be represented in the socialist governing body of a Socialist State.

Ideals can be revolutionary or anti-revolutionary, but when they are adopted by the people, they become ideas of the people.
And the people should retain the right to hold ideas that they deem best, their free will is no to be guided by the state.

Of course, the state can seek pro-revolutionary education policies; BUT the state does not have the right to limit the freedom of speech.
Not even when someone cries against the freedom of speech.
Let the people think, we can guide but we cannot force.
We are not gods, we are shepherds.

 

[LordTempest]

Free speech is essential, for without that liberty we have no right to say we are better than bourgeois nations like the USA, where the only oppression of free thought is conducted by people themselves. This sort of censorship is the one your precious "stateless society" needs.

That implies free speech is a good thing. We have right to say we are better than the USA because we are free of such paralyzing indecision and the opinion of fools, lunatics and Enewald.

If the eventual goal of the VSVR is to become a stateless society, and the only way to achieve that is through socialism, any thought which is counter-productive towards socialism will have to be eliminated in order to achieve that eventual goal. Why not sooner rather than later?

 

[Lenin Cat]

I disapprove of the proposed two-term limit. It is an unjustified impairment of the democratic rights of the people and the party members to vote for whoever they want.

EDIT: However, I think that all political officals should be possible to recall through a referendum on the respective political level; such a referendum should be held if a large enough portion of the electorate (10%? more?) requests it.

+1

 

[BigBadBob]

That implies free speech is a good thing. We have right to say we are better than the USA because we are free of such paralyzing indecision and the opinion of fools, lunatics and Enewald.

If the eventual goal of the VSVR is to become a stateless society, and the only way to achieve that is through socialism, any thought which is counter-productive towards socialism will have to be eliminated in order to achieve that eventual goal. Why not sooner rather than later?

What do you think will happen when State Censorship is ended along with the state, and the people notice they can say what they want without getting shot? We'll soon have a few people realizing it faster, and lying their way to become absolute monarchs in a new middle age. The stateless society is doomed to fail, so why don't we make a state controlled society as free and happy as possible?

 

[unmerged(252567)]

Actually, the ability to recall delegates is the largest one up that libertarian socialism such as in the Paris Commune has over most bourgeoisie constitutions. I for instance am acquainted with a mutualist whose primary beef with the U.S. constitution is that the electorate cannot vote to recall their representatives.

 

[Communard]

What do you think will happen when State Censorship is ended along with the state, and the people notice they can say what they want without getting shot? We'll soon have a few people realizing it faster, and lying their way to become absolute monarchs in a new middle age. The stateless society is doomed to fail, so why don't we make a state controlled society as free and happy as possible?

There is a phrase, comrade: "Please stop trying to help"
The stateless society is an idea you will not have much luck challenging here. I respect your right to say it (hah) but it is an accepted goal of our entire society. You have no evidence for your claim that it "would not work", many many theorists have put forth entire libraries of books as to exactly how it will work. You can't just state things like that.

Note, comrades, that nobody had to be shot or imprisoned in that little exchange. If reactionary ideas were such a threat to our society then Comrade Bob would have been elected Chairman and would be in the process of selling the VSVR to the British. This not being the case, I think I am justified in my trust in the people to choose what is right.

 

[BigBadBob]

There is a phrase, comrade: "Please stop trying to help"
The stateless society is an idea you will not have much luck challenging here. I respect your right to say it (hah) but it is an accepted goal of our entire society. You have no evidence for your claim that it "would not work", many many theorists have put forth theories as to exactly how it will work. You can't just state things like that.

Note, comrades, that nobody had to be shot or imprisoned in that little exchange. If reactionary ideas were such a threat to our society then Comrade Bob would have been elected Chairman and would be in the process of selling the VSVR to the British. This not being the case, I think I am justified in my trust in the people to choose what is right.

It's still worth a try.

Oh, and I believe Comrade Bob would be more likely to try to get the Americans to buy us, and then move to the Brits.

 

[Zakharov]

Pure and complete freedom of speech is a completely Anglo-Saxon idea, completely the opposite of our socialist culture. Dangerous speeches about antisemitism, racism and capitalism should be banned from our society while they still exist. When we'll disolve these ideas would have vanished and we would no longer have the need for such laws.

{OOC : Complete freedom of speech is absent from european culture. In US you can be as antisemitic as you want, in France speaking like this you would only got fines and go to prison, in germany too}

 

[unmerged(252567)]

THE MANIFESTO OF PROLETARIAN RIGHTS

All humanity is by nature created equal and has certain inherent rights, of which they cannot be deprived by the State: the right for all to give according to their ability and receive according to their need as part of the international proletariat, the right of the international proletariat to be treated as free and independent by the State, and the right of the international proletariat to seek the eventual but inevitable elimination of all states in order to bring about True Communism.

1. The right of all human beings to the Proletarian Rights set forth in this Manifesto, without distinction of any kind, such as race, color, sex, language, religion, political opinion, national or social origin, or other status.
2. The right to free speech, free press, free association, and peaceful assembly.
3. The right to the due process of law and humane carrying out of sentence.
4. The right to freely chosen or accepted work, with just and favorable working conditions and the freedom of workers to form voluntary organizations such as trade unions beyond the organs of the workers state (such as the current Soviets).
5. The right to the free and voluntary establishment of families, with special protection and assistance to mothers and children.
6. The right to an adequate standard of living, including adequate food and housing, with the continuous improvement of living conditions.
7. The right to the highest attainable standard of health.
8. The right to an education that enables all persons to participate effectively in the proletariat.
9. The right to enjoy the benefits of culture, scientific progress, and recognition for one's accomplishments and contributions to the proletariat.
10. The right to members of the Party to form militias, in which law abiding members of the Proletariat may peacefully bear arms without undue interference by the Workers State, with the understanding that the sponsoring Party members are responsible for the actions of the armed Proletariat they represent.


Fun fact: according to the phrasing of the preamble, while the State cannot violate the three fundamental but unspecific principles at the top, the Party can theoretically do so to the voluntary members of the Party without the State's Constitution or Constitutionally agitating Proletarians having any say in the matter. These are limits on the State and not the Party.

In fact, considering the Party goes beyond the State and is Stateless, I propose this:

We should focus on the State Constitution now and then after the next election, depending on the stance of whoever gets elected, either:
A. The Party should convene and write its internal and separate Constitution, with the focus on strengthening the purpose of Socialism within a society that desires to be stateless.
B. The International should be convened and all the Comintern member nation parties should write a unified Communist Party constitution they will all abide by in subsidiary, with non-Comintern parties recognized as truly socialist by the International being able to attend as observers and encouraged to follow these developments with their own independent party constitutions.

 

[Enewald]

Pure and complete freedom of speech is a completely Anglo-Saxon idea, completely the opposite of our socialist culture. Dangerous speeches about antisemitism, racism and capitalism should be banned from our society while they still exist. When we'll disolve these ideas would have vanished and we would no longer have the need for such laws.

{OOC : Complete freedom of speech is absent from european culture. In US you can be as antisemitic as you want, in France speaking like this you would only got fines and go to prison, in germany too}

Therefore there is a state that protects the rights of free speech, but also protects individuals from racism, oppression and segregation.
The rights of each individual shall be clarified, and if needed, insulting someone can be punished, or inciting hatred against a group of people.

But we need a real Freedom of Speech. We do not need a golden socialistic cage!

Let the people judge what is wrong and what is right. But Freedom of Speech is a must.

 

[Zakharov]

Therefore there is a state that protects the rights of free speech, but also protects individuals from racism, oppression and segregation.
The rights of each individual shall be clarified, and if needed, insulting someone can be punished, or inciting hatred against a group of people.

But we need a real Freedom of Speech. We do not need a golden socialistic cage!

Let the people judge what is wrong and what is right. But Freedom of Speech is a must.

Freedom of speech is a must i agree with you, but it must be limited, for we cannot permit racism and hatred in public debate.

 

[Enewald]

Freedom of speech is a must i agree with you, but it must be limited, for we cannot permit racism and hatred in public debate.

How about article that makes it a punishable crime to incite hatred or unacceptable intolerant behaviour towards other groups, based on religion, race, political ideas and such?

 

[Communard]

Freedom of speech is a must i agree with you, but it must be limited, for we cannot permit racism and hatred in public debate.

Let us not honour these vile ideas with the attraction of taboo. The best disinfectant is the light of day. Let all see the bigots for what they are, and debate against them and show their ideas to be what they are. All censorship is fear. Fear that one's ideology is incorrect and therefore that a better ideology will surface and rise to prominence. Well, I have no such fear. The people will reject any return to capitalism first at the ballot box, then with the rifle. It is the people who provide our strongest defence against reaction. That is, unless we prevent them from hearing the arguments against it and coming to their own conclusions.

 

[TheArchMede]

Am I the only one that thinks many of the proposals being put forward have a suspicious amount in common with the US Constitution?

 

[Konnigratz]

How about article that makes it a punishable crime to incite hatred or unacceptable intolerant behaviour towards other groups, based on religion, race, political ideas and such?

This is an idea which makes sense. Jail time of one month to ten years, depending on the severity of the offense, would be suitable. For the worst offenders, exile would be the ultimate punishment. But no capital punishment!