Industrializing Spain?

[Sir Zias]

So my main concern is if there is any possible way of keeping Spain afloat during a match inside the 8 main World Powers.

So far the match I've been most succesful in is one where I took the 3 sicilian provinces boosting my industrial points enough to keep me as a world power until about the 1850s. Apart from that, its absolutly impossible to compete on an industrial level with any of the European nations, hence not taking too long in losing my World Power status. (I have taken most of morroco, part of Vietnam and the country that shares island with a dutch colonial possesion west of the Philippine Islands. (I've though of taking control of Ecuador which somehow seems to have more industrial capacity than my mainland).

Why can't I industrialize? I can't get my craftsmen POPs to increase. Maybe in 2 or 3 regions and barely enough to fill 1 factory 100%. My capitalists start building factories all over the country but they employ about 1000 craftsmen each (in many cases even less).

Money is not the problem, in fact I dont even know what to do with all the money I make. The problem is It takes until about the 1870s to raise my literacy to 40% focusing ALL my efforts in raising it from 1836 (tecnology + national focus).

Question is simple, is Spain meant to be played like this? Or is there something extra I could do to actually increase the rate at which my POPs become Craftsmen? I understand starting with like 14% literacy when some countries in Europe are at 80% is a HUGE handicap... but I though maybe there was something that was escaping my mind.

Thanks.

 

[wetblowdryer]

Spain overall has a very low population when compared to something like France or Germany (it can be close to Germany's but that 40 life rating in every province makes their population easily double within a few years of game time). I'm not an expert on Victoria 2's industrial mechanic, but that sounds like a part of the issue.

Furthermore, Spain, from the top of my head, doesn't have much coal or timber, two raw materials basically essential to creating a large industrial base.

 

[austrianemporer]

So my main concern is if there is any possible way of keeping Spain afloat during a match inside the 8 main World Powers.

So far the match I've been most succesful in is one where I took the 3 sicilian provinces boosting my industrial points enough to keep me as a world power until about the 1850s. Apart from that, its absolutly impossible to compete on an industrial level with any of the European nations, hence not taking too long in losing my World Power status. (I have taken most of morroco, part of Vietnam and the country that shares island with a dutch colonial possesion west of the Philippine Islands. (I've though of taking control of Ecuador which somehow seems to have more industrial capacity than my mainland).

Why can't I industrialize? I can't get my craftsmen POPs to increase. Maybe in 2 or 3 regions and barely enough to fill 1 factory 100%. My capitalists start building factories all over the country but they employ about 1000 craftsmen each (in many cases even less).

Money is not the problem, in fact I dont even know what to do with all the money I make. The problem is It takes until about the 1870s to raise my literacy to 40% focusing ALL my efforts in raising it from 1836 (tecnology + national focus).

Question is simple, is Spain meant to be played like this? Or is there something extra I could do to actually increase the rate at which my POPs become Craftsmen? I understand starting with like 14% literacy when some countries in Europe are at 80% is a HUGE handicap... but I though maybe there was something that was escaping my mind.

Thanks.

You need to raise literacy pronto. Try full funding on budget, NF's, and technology (technology isn't really important for literacy except for biologism). That is the most important.
When I play Spain, I just go full colonial and eat Asia. I also tend to attack weak nations in Europe such as Portugal and the small Italian provinces. You have a 50/50 chance of staying a great power if you do that. Dropping out of Great Power is not a disaster, it allows for a few years of peace and quiet while you build up industry and literacy. Then, you will be strong enough to rise back. I have seen the AI manage Spain to become a Great Power by 1890 after dropping out of GP status in 1840.

Spain overall has a very low population when compared to something like France or Germany (it can be close to Germany's but that 40 life rating in every province makes their population easily double within a few years of game time). I'm not an expert on Victoria 2's industrial mechanic, but that sounds like a part of the issue.

Furthermore, Spain, from the top of my head, doesn't have much coal or timber, two raw materials basically essential to creating a large industrial base.

The pop is pretty good for Europe. Life rating doesn't raise birth rate by that much.

I agree with the coal and timber. You should either conquer provinces with that, get a really good score to be able to buy from the world market, or concentrate on an alternative industry.

 

[Owl Raider]

If you don't want to lose GP status(for diplomatic reasons mostly so you can maintain your sphere) than you need to focus on prestige and military instead of industry in the early game. Industrializing Spain will be a long process as your literacy is terrible and you need at least 20% to sustain a craftsmen population and at least 40% to sustain clerks. So basically get into a lot of wars, both for concessions and humiliation to get enough prestige to prevent Belgium/Netherlands/whoever from overtaking your slot at the rankings. Use all your NFs to promote clergymen, start with your most populous provinces until you get 2% clergymen than move onto the next ones. When you have 2% clergymen across the board repeat the process but this time from 2% to around 3-3.5% to speed up literacy gain. When your overall literacy is getting near the 50% mark than it's finally time to begin industrializing. This should be at around 1860 or so. Hopefully by that point you've conquered and sphered enough territory with useful RGOs, mostly coal and iron for the early industrialization but also future oil and rubber provinces gearing towards the late game. When 1870 comes get into the Scramble for Africa as usual, you should be in a good position to colonize all the good colonies as the AI always focuses on the useless northern and western territories rather than the central(Niger Delta, Yorumba States, etc) ones which offer the best RGOs.

Once you begin industrializing you shouldn't have a problem maintaining your GP status. It's only those early years that are tricky. So focus on army(which includes your navy) and prestige scores to keep you afloat, which will require you to play aggressively so mind your infamy and only take land from uncivs, you can humiliate anyone as the infamy cost is the same.

 

[austrianemporer]

If you don't want to lose GP status(for diplomatic reasons mostly so you can maintain your sphere) than you need to focus on prestige and military instead of industry in the early game. Industrializing Spain will be a long process as your literacy is terrible and you need at least 20% to sustain a craftsmen population and at least 40% to sustain clerks. So basically get into a lot of wars, both for concessions and humiliation to get enough prestige to prevent Belgium/Netherlands/whoever from overtaking your slot at the rankings. Use all your NFs to promote clergymen, start with your most populous provinces until you get 2% clergymen than move onto the next ones. When you have 2% clergymen across the board repeat the process but this time from 2% to around 3-3.5% to speed up literacy gain. When your overall literacy is getting near the 50% mark than it's finally time to begin industrializing. This should be at around 1860 or so. Hopefully by that point you've conquered and sphered enough territory with useful RGOs, mostly coal and iron for the early industrialization but also future oil and rubber provinces gearing towards the late game. When 1870 comes get into the Scramble for Africa as usual, you should be in a good position to colonize all the good colonies as the AI always focuses on the useless northern and western territories rather than the central(Niger Delta, Yorumba States, etc) ones which offer the best RGOs.

Once you begin industrializing you shouldn't have a problem maintaining your GP status. It's only those early years that are tricky. So focus on army(which includes your navy) and prestige scores to keep you afloat, which will require you to play aggressively so mind your infamy and only take land from uncivs, you can humiliate anyone as the infamy cost is the same.

This is true too. I was talking long term.

20% literacy for craftsmen? I thought it was 40%.

 

[Ointagru]

So my main concern is if there is any possible way of keeping Spain afloat during a match inside the 8 main World Powers.

So far the match I've been most succesful in is one where I took the 3 sicilian provinces boosting my industrial points enough to keep me as a world power until about the 1850s. Apart from that, its absolutly impossible to compete on an industrial level with any of the European nations, hence not taking too long in losing my World Power status. (I have taken most of morroco, part of Vietnam and the country that shares island with a dutch colonial possesion west of the Philippine Islands. (I've though of taking control of Ecuador which somehow seems to have more industrial capacity than my mainland).

Why can't I industrialize? I can't get my craftsmen POPs to increase. Maybe in 2 or 3 regions and barely enough to fill 1 factory 100%. My capitalists start building factories all over the country but they employ about 1000 craftsmen each (in many cases even less).

Money is not the problem, in fact I dont even know what to do with all the money I make. The problem is It takes until about the 1870s to raise my literacy to 40% focusing ALL my efforts in raising it from 1836 (tecnology + national focus).

Question is simple, is Spain meant to be played like this? Or is there something extra I could do to actually increase the rate at which my POPs become Craftsmen? I understand starting with like 14% literacy when some countries in Europe are at 80% is a HUGE handicap... but I though maybe there was something that was escaping my mind.

Thanks.

As wetblowdryer wrote, your population is too small. You can't compete with the UK, France, Germany, Italy, nor the USA (unless something unusually bad happened to them, that's always an option - preventing the formation of Germany, weakening the USA by siding with Mexico and the Confederates etc.)

What you can do: increase the population (health reforms are VERY helpful, as are inventions coming with the medicine tech) and literacy.

If it takes you until the 1870s to raise the literacy to 40%, than you are doing something suboptimally. At the end of the 1870s, you could have more than 70% literacy with Spain. Don't forget to raise the administrative efficiency as well - the rate of promotions (into clergy for example) depends on it, so, once the clergy is at 2% at national level, encourage them preferably in provinces with higher administrative efficiency first, up to 4%. It is also important to keep the tariffs low, so that your population can satisfy their needs for goods you do not produce, it will be beneficial to the promotion rate.

When you have 4% clergy in all states, encourage only craftsmen.

It is also important to make sure that your industry has all the resources it needs, so if you want a diversified industry an aggressive expansion and/or massive colonization is a must.

 

[austrianemporer]

As wetblowdryer wrote, your population is too small. You can't compete with the UK, France, Germany, Italy, nor the USA (unless something unusually bad happened to them, that's always an option - preventing the formation of Germany, weakening the USA by siding with Mexico and the Confederates etc.)

What you can do: increase the population (health reforms are VERY helpful, as are inventions coming with the medicine tech) and literacy.

If it takes you until the 1870s to raise the literacy to 40%, than you are doing something suboptimally. At the end of the 1870s, you could have more than 70% literacy with Spain. Don't forget to raise the administrative efficiency as well - the rate of promotions (into clergy for example) depends on it, so, once the clergy is at 2% at national level, encourage them preferably in provinces with higher administrative efficiency first, up to 4%. It is also important to keep the tariffs low, so that your population can satisfy their needs for goods you do not produce, it will be beneficial to the promotion rate.

When you have 4% clergy in all states, encourage only craftsmen.

It is also important to make sure that your industry has all the resources it needs, so if you want a diversified industry an aggressive expansion and/or massive colonization is a must.

I have already stated, Spain's population is actually pretty good. Its just not humongous like Russia's population.

Other than that, I agree except with 4% clergy. If you have 100% education spending, then 4% clergy will become 5% and more which is very bad since its just extra clergy for no benefit. I would promote to 3 or 3.5% clergy.

 

[Scuzz]

This is true too. I was talking long term.

20% literacy for craftsmen? I thought it was 40%.

Craftsmen are 20%, but higher literacy pops convert at a higher rate. Plus, the literacy you see on the main screen is everybody's average, some pop's will learn slower than others. Industrializing in the first 20 years or so is a waste of cash.
Most of Spain's chronic industrialization woes is that the RGO's are huge compared to the pops, so you don't get overcrowding in the countryside/mines forcing poor pops to change jobs.

That said, a strong navy, healthy prestige, large colonial empire, and aggressive foriegn policy should keep you in a good place. Just remember to kick down when your situation starts getting tenuous. For example, if you drop to 6th place, it is time to knock number 7 or number 8 out of the big boy's club. This helps keep a wide gap between you and the bottom, and the prestige pushes you back up.
Getting up in the first place is a matter of rushing prestige techs and murdering Asians/Africans same as any other small fry. Buddy up with the UK at first, and switch to NGF when they start coming up. Wreck the Ottomans first chance you get.

 

[Scuzz]

One other thing, Spain is in a unique position to corner the Rubber market (use the Philippines as a launching point to take Dai Nam and other Asian rubber colonies, suck Portugal and SA into your sphere, grab the African colonies first), and with your late industrialization you can focus your factories on building high profit tech development like EG and Cars.
This won't make you #1, but it will make you rich and keep other countries from getting as far as they could, which is your goal, after all. Spain is a Ruiner, not a Winner.

 

[freeaxle]

The other thing that you should look at, and I'm not sure it's mentioned yet, is boosting your rgo efficiency techs. By mid-late game you will be producing as much of many goods as can be consumed. If you boost the efficiency of the rgos then you need fewer pops to hit that production and the rest become unemployed. The unemployed pops will pretty quickly switch to craftsmen after that. Spain is relatively good for industrialising (it has coal and iron IRC), but as others have said it's a slow process. Don't expect much before 1860/70.

 

[Owl Raider]

One other thing, Spain is in a unique position to corner the Rubber market (use the Philippines as a launching point to take Dai Nam and other Asian rubber colonies, suck Portugal and SA into your sphere, grab the African colonies first), and with your late industrialization you can focus your factories on building high profit tech development like EG and Cars.
This won't make you #1, but it will make you rich and keep other countries from getting as far as they could, which is your goal, after all. Spain is a Ruiner, not a Winner.

Any nation can, and perhaps should, corner the rubber market. The Phillipines don't really offer you a major advantage as anyone can(and should) easily annex Johore, Brunei and maybe Atjeh too to get a foothold in South East Asia from which to invade Siam, Cambodia and Dai Nam who have a lot of rubber, along with Johore itself which is filled with rubber. Likewise with Africa, the AI doesn't prioritize the rubber producing territories in central Africa, instead it focuses on the northern and western portions which offer useless RGOs that are plentiful everywhere else in the world. The last 2 rubber havens are trickier but very manageable. Brazil and Bolivia can easily be sphered(or another nation if Bolivia got eaten) so that's very simple. Egypt is a bit trickier. While you can certainly sphere it, if only for the Suez Canal, you will have a lot of competition throughout the game because of it. Instead you should consider conquering the southern territories of Egypt which hold the rubber, as they're also useful gateways for colonization in the eastern part of Africa to eventually connect with your central colonies(Niger Delta, Yorumba States and eastwards from there).

 

[Ointagru]

I have already stated, Spain's population is actually pretty good. Its just not humongous like Russia's population.

Yes, its population is good, but unlike Prussia, Austria, the Ottos and Russia, whose whole population can contribute to the industry, Spain has populous colonies, which account for almost a third of it. This colonial population is of no direct use for industrialisation (although it is possible to turn Cuba into a state later on). So, counting only the population from which you can recruit craftsmen, Spain is the weakest Great Power, significantly weaker also than Italy.

Other than that, I agree except with 4% clergy. If you have 100% education spending, then 4% clergy will become 5% and more which is very bad since its just extra clergy for no benefit. I would promote to 3 or 3.5% clergy.

Clergy won't go over 4% with 100% education spending. Even with the combination of the education spending and the national focus, it is extremely hard to raise them above 4% (I've never seen 5% clergy). The 4% for clergy seems to be a kind of a invisible barrier which is easy to attain but hard to pass, like the 5% barrier for soldier pops. When they are at 4% and with 100% education spending, the clergy will actually decrease a bit (to 3,9% or 3,8%), so if you want to keep them at 4% you need to come back with your national focus every few years.

 

[Kovax]

Hmmm, obviously I need to rethink my strategy next game. My current game started with Austria, I released HUN on day one, then saved and reloaded as HUN. Literacy was an abysmal 13.3%. I've boosted it up close to 40% by around 1890, but that was with a shade less than 2% clergy, which the tooltip claims is "optimal". Apparently I should have boosted it higher. Thanks to the two cultural techs, one of which raises research and the other which raises education, I've managed not to drop behind the "big boys" any further in technology, although I'm still not able to catch up.

Like Spain, Hungary's population density is a bit low, but I was able to industrialize early (despite the low literacy) and move quickly into 7th place. Holding that has been difficult, as everyone else is still building up industrially, while I'm just about maxed out. I'm still the world's leading producer of cement, but everything else is slipping to 4th or 5th place, or below. The rapid rise of industry means that there's almost no population willing to go military, so I've got an army that's half the size it should be, or less, and my military rank is around #47, compared to #6 in industry and around #8 in prestige. I still managed to take 3 regions from Egypt with that rather pathetic army, and built a canal. Once the canal was built, disputing the possession of Egypt doesn't seem to hold the same interest for the US or France that it did earlier. I'd love to be able to take a piece or two of the Ottomans, but they're allied to Russia, so that's not an option even if I can muster a handful of allies to attempt it. If you've got the pops who want to go military, conquering your way into the upper 8 is a viable alternative; if not, then you need to industrialize.

 

[Ointagru]

but that was with a shade less than 2% clergy, which the tooltip claims is "optimal".

The tooltip is correct, 2% clergy is optimal. For research. Having more than 2% won't increase (directly) your research points, but will improve your literacy gain (I believe it's proportional: you'll gain literacy twice as fast with 4% clergy than with 2%, everything other being equal).

Btw, if you think 13% literacy is abysmal, you should try playing with the Ottos, or Serbia.

 

[Ointagru]

The rapid rise of industry means that there's almost no population willing to go military, so I've got an army that's half the size it should be, or less, and my military rank is around #47, compared to #6 in industry and around #8 in prestige. I still managed to take 3 regions from Egypt with that rather pathetic army, and built a canal.

Colonies are not only a source of precious resources, but also (as they were historically) of manpower. Zulu, East Housaland, Sind (and Punjab if not sphered by the UK), Dai Nam, Korea and of course, China, are in that sense valuable targets for conquest. When colonizing, if you are looking for manpower, choose the most densely populated areas instead of those with good resources.

 

[AmpsterMan]

I'm going to correct some minor factual errors done in this thread.

-20% literacy is required to get rid of the 100% malus to Craftsmen and Capitalist promotion.
-50% literacy is required to get rid of the 100% malus to Clerk promotion.
-100% education spending caps promotion to Clergy at 4%.
-100% military caps Soldier pops at 5% and Officer pops at 0.2%
-100% Admin caps Bureaucrats at 1.5 x required percentage of pops for 100% efficiency (not confirmed)
- Whenever you reach the max for either Clergy, Soldiers, Officers, or Bureaucrats, you get a very large boost to Clerk promotion chance (can't remember specifics)

Hmmm, obviously I need to rethink my strategy next game. My current game started with Austria, I released HUN on day one, then saved and reloaded as HUN. Literacy was an abysmal 13.3%. I've boosted it up close to 40% by around 1890, but that was with a shade less than 2% clergy, which the tooltip claims is "optimal". Apparently I should have boosted it higher. Thanks to the two cultural techs, one of which raises research and the other which raises education, I've managed not to drop behind the "big boys" any further in technology, although I'm still not able to catch up.

Like Spain, Hungary's population density is a bit low, but I was able to industrialize early (despite the low literacy) and move quickly into 7th place. Holding that has been difficult, as everyone else is still building up industrially, while I'm just about maxed out. I'm still the world's leading producer of cement, but everything else is slipping to 4th or 5th place, or below. The rapid rise of industry means that there's almost no population willing to go military, so I've got an army that's half the size it should be, or less, and my military rank is around #47, compared to #6 in industry and around #8 in prestige. I still managed to take 3 regions from Egypt with that rather pathetic army, and built a canal. Once the canal was built, disputing the possession of Egypt doesn't seem to hold the same interest for the US or France that it did earlier. I'd love to be able to take a piece or two of the Ottomans, but they're allied to Russia, so that's not an option even if I can muster a handful of allies to attempt it. If you've got the pops who want to go military, conquering your way into the upper 8 is a viable alternative; if not, then you need to industrialize.

Soldier and Craftsmen are somewhat mutually exclusive. They are both demotion pops for your laborers and farmers. This means that the fastest way to gain soldiers isn't by "promoting" low pops into those positions, but rather by demoting them into it. Demotions happen mainly when pops aren't getting everyday needs. The most consistent way to do this with Farmers and Laborers is by increasing efficiency techs (because increased unemployment). A slightly faster, but potentially more damaging way, is to demote Artisans, Bureaucrats, Clerks, and Clergy into soldiers. Do this by increasing military spending to maximum, national focus on Soldier pops, and decrease Education and Administrative spending to zero, as well as maximize middle tax rates. This is functional, but desperate.

What i personally do with small pop countries is have a large citizen army. Instead of worrying about having a large professional army, I build various Corps around the nation with Engineers, Cannons, and Cavalry. These are my "national guard" as it were. I them have like 1 or 2 Expeditionary forces going around the world conquering things.

The tooltip is correct, 2% clergy is optimal. For research. Having more than 2% won't increase (directly) your research points, but will improve your literacy gain (I believe it's proportional: you'll gain literacy twice as fast with 4% clergy than with 2%, everything other being equal).

Btw, if you think 13% literacy is abysmal, you should try playing with the Ottos, or Serbia.

2% is optimal for increasing tech points, but there are other reasons why 4% may be optimal. Clergy increase literacy rating at, as you suggested, a double rate at 4% compared with 2%. Furthermore, Clergy pops act as a surpressor for Consciousness. Low consciousness has two consequences. Lowered reform desire, and lower Life, Everyday, and Luxury demand for goods (haven't independently confirmed this). Literacy also increases promotion chance for farmers and laborers, and increases promotion selection chance for craftsmen, clerks, and capitalists. This means that a higher literacy, lower concsiousness pop promotes faster because they have a higher promotion rate due to higher literacy AND lower demand for goods. Specifically, Craftsmen and Clerks promote to the next level with a larger percentage of their luxury goods fulfilled.

All of this is why I sometimes go straight for 4% clergy. The consciousness suppression in particular, mixed with the social policies that reduce luxury, everyday, and life goods, leads to a large Clerk and Capitalist population, which is what I think is what an "advanced" economy should look like.

 

[Owl Raider]

Pretty sure I've seen clergymen go up all the way to around 4.5%, so the 4% is not a hard cap by any means. Not sure about the other values but I suspect those too are soft caps as well. It just seems that the system has diminishing returns, as in it's easier to get clergymen from 0% to 1% than from 1% to 2% than from 2% to 3%, etc, and it gets exponentially harder not linearly.

 

[AmpsterMan]

Pretty sure I've seen clergymen go up all the way to around 4.5%, so the 4% is not a hard cap by any means. Not sure about the other values but I suspect those too are soft caps as well. It just seems that the system has diminishing returns, as in it's easier to get clergymen from 0% to 1% than from 1% to 2% than from 2% to 3%, etc, and it gets exponentially harder not linearly.

Do you play with mods? If you reach 4% clergy in a province and hover over the lower level pops that promote to clergy, you'll see that it says, at 4% clergy and 100% education spending, +20% due to education spending, -20% due to 4% pop. When I get home i can take a screenshot to showcase.

Edit: I remember now that Literacy also affects promotion selection chance for some pop types, so that might just be what makes the difference. Will fix info in my post if that is so for Clergy

 

[Owl Raider]

Do you play with mods? If you reach 4% clergy in a province and hover over the lower level pops that promote to clergy, you'll see that it says, at 4% clergy and 100% education spending, +20% due to education spending, -20% due to 4% pop. When I get home i can take a screenshot to showcase.

Edit: I remember now that Literacy also affects promotion selection chance for some pop types, so that might just be what makes the difference. Will fix info in my post if that is so for Clergy

Nope, vanilla just with both expansions(AHD and HoD).

 

[TheDoctor987]

My understanding of the clergy percentage is that below 0.5% literacy decreases. At 0.5% it doesn't change, and above 0.5% to 4.5% it increases it.
This is what it says in the defines.lua
pops = {
BASE_CLERGY_FOR_LITERACY = 0.005,
MAX_CLERGY_FOR_LITERACY = 0.04,
LITERACY_CHANGE_SPEED = 0.1,