In-depth Guide to CKII - Feedback Thread

[Meneth]

I'd like to get feedback about my guide, and as the structure it follows doesn't allow that in the thread itself, I've created this thread.
Any criticism is welcome as long as it is kept constructive. As I want it to be factually correct, anything shown to be objectively incorrect will be corrected. Anything subjective I'm happy to discuss.
I'd also like ideas for further topic. My current list of potential topics are these:

• Alliances
• Traits and opinion modifiers

 

[Meneth]

Some suggestions and corrections on the CB post:

De Jure: Mention County claim on a Barony. Mention that Kingdoms do NOT grant de jure claims on duchies, since this gets asked a lot.

Invasion: You EITHER need an existing claim on the throne OR have the target be larger than you.

Crusade and Religious: You only gain holdings that are unoccupied or occupied by you/your ally. This comes up on crusades when 20 different people are attacking the same target.

Forging claims: These NEVER work above the duchy level, not "seldom". And you can only get a duchy claim if your chancellor has 15+ diplomacy (much more likely at 20+).

Truces: They're one-sided, I think. If you attack me, I can still attack you back within 10 years.

Excommunication: You missed that the ruler is forced to abdicate in favor of their heir. Also, the piety/prestige bonus scales with the size of the target.

Fixed/added 2 through 6.
Could you explain the claim on Barony CB? I've never used it.
Excommunication: Misread the code, seems it is the opponent's tier that matter, not your own. Corrected.
Thank you for the corrections.

 

[Meneth]

I think he means what I described. Load up as the Duke of Apulia at 1066 (the second 1066 for certain, as it's the one I use, but I assume it's there for the first), and then try to dow the Pope and you'll see it.

Right, added in.

Thanks to both of you for your feedback.

 

[Meneth]

Note that both the player and AI automatically surrender after they reach -100% warscore reached, and that if liege and vassal are fighting separate wars for the same objective, victory for one ends the other's war inconclusively (so it is a race). When additional wars are also involved in the same territory, it gets even more complicated.

True that. Added a note about it.

Women can still get pregnant while age 45.

Thanks, corrected from 45 to 46.

I assume the holding count must include all vassals of the ruler you declare war against. I have an unanswered question out there to confirm whether the target holding count is based on de jure or de facto holdings. Might be useful to find out and mention.

I think it is based on de facto holdings, but I'm not actually sure. I'll try to remember to test it.

Clarify what qualifies for an alliance. Membership in same dynasty, or spouses each being of the immediate family of their own ruler (IIRC just child or sibling counts).

Thanks, clarified.

Crusader is a very useful trait - to get it the conquest needs to be victorious, but I can't find whether or not the character just needs to have fought in that war or must be present at the objective upon victory (or somewhere in between).

You get it the moment you enter the crusade target area. Added a note on it.

I need to look through my notes and the revised guide and look for more items to suggest later.

Thank you very much for your suggestions/corrections so far.

There is no talk of ports and town levels in cities. It seems though that with investments of 100 coins for a +2.5 coins per year these buildings seem to pay back in 40 years and hence can be very valuable. With a "wrong ruler" holding, even with a -50% income penalty, they pay back in 80 years. Under a mayor, they may pay you back in 160 years (or a bit more), although I wonder if mayors invest their own income in buildings (in which case these would still be very valuable investments).

Building in your vassals' holdings is mentioned, using towns as an example of why it doesn't pay off compared to building in your own. The wrong holding type penalty is -75% now, not 50%. It is true your vassals will be able to reinvest, but you get much the same benefit from your own holdings.

It may be worth talking about new settlements, how cost worthy they are. Some may pay back in 150 years (less in mayors carry out their own upgrades).

Thanks for the suggestion. Added a note on that.

I think you should expand 'religion' section to include orthodox differences:
- bishops ALWAYS pay you money
- there is no free investiture
- no crusades
- no appointing successors for bishop
- no anti-patriarch too
And this change many tactics in another sections. For example orthodox monastery in many ways better then city (more troops with quite decent taxes and don't forget schools!)

Added in a small section on that, thanks.

Adult vassals can convert to a faith in a different religion group, either through a Chaplain or if ordered to by you (or if you're a vassal yourself) your liege. The section on religion is far too Cathlo-centric.

Thanks, added a note on that.

 

[Meneth]

And you don't mention ports, which also make quite a lot of money .

Ports give income equal to city markets, so I don't see the point of mentioning them in particular.

For indirect tax, as a king, how does the maximization work ? Does the change of tax level impact on the relations between the dukes and the counts as much as between the dukes and the king ?

Every liege has his own tax laws for his direct vassals. Your tax laws don't affect your vassals' tax laws, nor impact their relations to their vassals.

 

[Meneth]

This is not right. Cost is affected by number of actual holdings: second is cheaper then third.
Second - 500g
Third - 600g
4th - 700g
5th - 800g
6th - 900g
7th - 1000g

Oh, didn't know that. Thanks. Will update that.

 

[Meneth]

I've had a woman - the liege's stepmother, during the course of a 27 year extramarital affair - get pregnant and successfully give birth at age 53. Didn't think to take a screenshot but I did tell my friends about it.

Re: 45 vs 46 birth age limit

Come to think of it though, it might be that affairs are a different mechanic altogether, given that they fire events that give % chances that the mistress gets pregnant which might themselves be a much higher potential chance than would exist given a marriage.

Yeah, I looked at some of the events, and they often only check the fertility of the character getting the event, not the character getting impregnated. So, in CK2 the fertile octogenarian is not just a legal fiction (although you can be pretty sure the child is a bastard).

Yeah. Thought I had mentioned that, but apparently forgot it. Thank you both.

I assume you meant 100% at 100 (?)

Yup, thanks. Corrected.

 

[Meneth]

autorization to do a translation ?

Sure. Just note that the guide is modified pretty often.

 

[Meneth]

I've rewritten the installment on the feudal system.

The old version, for comparison:

In Crusader Kings II, and Feudal Europe, realms have a highly hierarchical structure, almost every single noble serves someone else. As a liege, your most important job is keeping your vassals happy, as they provide most of your power.
First off, there's the economic aspect of it. Every single vassal you have has the potential to pay you tax. How much they pay you depend on three factors:

1. How much they earn.
2. What tax laws you've implemented.
3. How much they like you.

Number 1 is rather obvious, the more they earn the more they're able to pay you.
Number 2, your laws, decide what percentage of their income they're supposed to pay you. Starting off this is something like 20-30% for cities and churches, and 0% for baronies.
Number 3, how much they like you, is also very important. If a vassal has an opinion of you below 0, this will reduce how much tax they pay you by as many precent as they're below 0. For example, if a duke is supposed to pay you 10% of his income, but has an opinion of -50 towards you, he'll only pay you 5% of his income, as 10% * 50% is 5%.
Thus, if you're unable to keep your vassals happy, you will have very little income beyond what you get from your own personal holdings. Do also note that bishops will only ever pay you tax if they like you more than they like the pope.
Furthermore, and about as importantly, the feudal system has a huge effect on your warpower. Generally almost all your levyable troops will be from your vassals, not your own holdings. And like taxes, how many troops they'll let you levy is once again based around three factors:

1. The available manpower in the province.
2. Which levy laws you've implemented.
3. How much they like you.

These three factors work essentially the same way as it does for tax.
So what can easily end up happening is that after an inheritance, no one likes your heir and you thus lose out on most of your potential levies, and will as such be much harder put to defend your lands or put down rebellions.
As an example of this, in my current campaign when my previous, highly loved king died, my levyable manpower went from around 40 000 men to about 20 000 men due to the large drop in opinion I got, with the taxes from my vassals dropping by a similar amount.

Tl;dr: The feudal system means you have to keep as many people as possible happy if you want to survive. Without happy vassals you'll have little income, and little power.

I love your guide. How about a section on culture? I started an AAR in Spain and I'd dearly love knowing how to maximize converting those provinces over.

Thank you for the suggestion, added to the list.

 

[Meneth]

Have a quick question about the Feudal section.



Can someone explain "ninth" a bit more. Does that mean if I'm currently a duke, I shouldn't have any other dukes under me? So basically only give out counties?

And for "tenth" -- can you form a duchy that isn't 'de jure'? Or does this mean: try to get the all of the X provinces for any de jure duchy that may have one province in your realm?

Putting this information together: If I'm a duke, I should try to be the duke of all of the duchies in my realm until I can form a kingdom, then once I've been crowned king (maybe a good example is Duke of Apulia, forming Sicily) I give away all of those duchies and just reign as king? So as a king, I don't need to be duke of anything--I should just award out all of the duchies to dynasty members?

Sorry for the elementary questions, just trying to learn!

Dukes cannot have dukes under them.

All duchies in the game have de jure territories. Form any duchies you can, it pays off in the long run.

 

[Meneth]

I'm sorry for all of these dull questions, if I should post them elsewhere, or create a thread, let me know, but:

In summary, it says:

Hold all the de jure titles for the area you rule

This is such a stupid question, but what does this mean? I'm new to CK and does that just mean: Be the Duke for all of the Duchies in your area? Then when/if you're king, hold the King title of everything possible in your demesne. But don't ever be the King AND the Duke?

Example, if you're King of Castille and have Aragon under your control, then you should simultaneously hold the King of Castille and King of Aragon title, but give away the Duchy of Aragon (and all other duchies) to dynasty members?

Hold every top-level title you can. For example like you say, if you control the REGION of Aragon, you should have the CROWN of Aragon if at all possible. Yes, give away the duchy. Keep two duchies for yourself at all times, of course, and build them up.

 

[Meneth]

This thread advertises it....

set your subscription of the guide to email you when he updates it?

I never got that to work for this forum
The real problem to me about it being in the FAQ section... is that I can't actually post there, so it is currently lagging an installment behind.
Of course, the lost exposure isn't exactly great either, but I'll leave that to Paradox and the forum mods to decide.

 

[Meneth]

The guide is back in the general forum for now.
Posted an installment on culture.

 

[Meneth]

Great guide. It's really nice to have something to point newbie friends to when they start freaking out about the complexity

One nitpick, you're wrong about cultural spread to islands, it can happen. In my first game I conquered muslim Sicily as Hungary and got an event to send settler over which made 1 prov Hungarian, then normal spread resumed. Check the events\province_events.txt file, 2nd event; if I read it correctly the prov needs:
-wrong culture
-wrong relgiion group, i.e. unconverted muslim/pagan conquest
-no neighbouring prov has owner culture AND ruler with owner culture (i.e. normal spread is impossible)

Same MTTH and stewardship modifiers.

True, found that later on. I'll correct that.
However, due to its requirements that event will almost never ever fire, as the MTTH of culture changes is many many times higher than the MTTH of religion changes as long as moral authority is decent.

 

[Meneth]

Posted an installment on holding types.

 

[Meneth]

I just read it. I'm not sure I really agree with the city/bishop types being more likely to rebel. I generally find that to be the opposite. I don't believe they get the penalty for crown authority and they generally don't build up enough for a powerbase to be much of a threat.

If you have them as a count/duke they'll be getting -30 opinion with you, as compared to -20 from Medium Crown Authority. Counts/dukes do get higher revolt risks after that point, though, but I'm assuming that count/duke level burghers and bishops not getting the Crown Law penalties is not WAD.

 

[Meneth]

Posted an installment about crown law.

 

[Meneth]

Great stuff. 2 things, and I might be wrong on them.

1. isn't there a limit on how quickly you can change CA? I seem to remember only being able to up it once or twice each reign.
2. I think you can up your CA high enough to set the succession laws to what you want, then lower them and still keep those laws. A good tip.

1. Yeah, once per reign. I'll mention that.
2. You can, I'll mention that.

Thank you for your feedback.

 

[Meneth]

Posted an installment on the topic of distribution of power.

 

[Meneth]

I would say the extra 250 piety required for a Papal Invasion CB is another, big disadvantage, of Free Investiture.

Forgot about that, thanks for reminding me.