Then it would not be the COLD WAR... or a historical based game. It would be something else.
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Then it would not be the COLD WAR... or a historical based game. It would be something else.
I'd think a 3-way Cold War would be better set up by WWII not ending in total victory for the allies, but instead more of a stalemate, thus leaving fascist nations in existence in central and even western Europe.
making the 3-way between Capitalist America(+British imperial sphere), Communist Eastern Europe+China, and Fascist Central and Western Europe(+remaining colonial spheres)... not sure where Japan goes.
and my previous Idea earlier in this thread about the game having multiple gradients of moral/ethical alinements(my proposal being Authoritarian Vs Libertarian, Capitalist Vs Communist[a horrible over-simplification of social policies sure, but it is a game based in the Cold War so these terms make great short hands], and Nationalist Vs Globalist) would make having a third faction arising/splitting off be possible in the base game, or at least allow the sides to change while still being opposed to each other in one way or another.
I think having at least two dates for both the vary beginning of the Cold War(Russia having The Bomb, or maybe just a little bit before that) where you can try to Butterfly virtually anything, and a later one when all the famous battleground are already 'active' in one way or another(not unlike HoI4 having ones for both the lead up to the war, and the start of the war itself).
It would be a historical based game and a Cold War. A Cold War just means "A world war fought by proxy" and it would be historically based as it would still start historically. If you had Germany and Japan fighting by proxy, it would still be a "Cold War". EU4 is also historically based, yet you can have Hungary become an empire or Bohemia stay alive. And I would argue I ma not the only one who would prefer an earlier start date as it would be fun if it wasn't historic. If it starts in 1950, then you can't really do much as everything's decided pretty much, so you know what'll happen. I don't really see how it would at all be fun if it was already fully set in stone. You can't do alt history any longer, you just have a simulation, not a game imo.
The point is that if the axis won, there could've been as easily a Cold War between the US, Germany and China. So an earlier start date would be beneficial to the people who want to play another Cold War. It's a game, not a simulation also
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Cold war in the context of this discussion means a lot more then that simplistic definition. In the context of the thread, the cold war is specifically the conflict between the superpowers of the mid to late 20th century (USA and USSR) and the conflict between the ideologies, politics, armed forces, and economic systems of the aforementioned superpowers.
Trying to stretch out the definition and divert/ignore what the context of the whole discussion to justify something is what you were trying to do. And it is not productive to the conversation or chances of such a game eventually being made.
If the axis won, then it would NOT be a cold war game in the context of what we are discussing. I think you are missing this simple point.
In what way would it NOT have been a Cold War game in the context we're discussing? We're discussing a game set after WW2, about a Cold War and what we would like included
How about this,
1) Read through the entirety of the posts of this thread
2) Google "Cold War", see what pops up 1st, and is in the overwhelming majority of hits
Then come back and answer how your proposals and ideas may not fit into the context of what is being discussed.
My answer is: It would still be a Cold War game and would actually be interesting to play. I mean if we start in the 50's then what can you change, if everything is set in stone. You'll literally just do history and not be able to change anything. Eastern Europe will be impossible to liberate due to the threat of nuclear war, etc.How about this,
1) Read through the entirety of the posts of this thread
2) Google "Cold War", see what pops up 1st, and is in the overwhelming majority of hits
Then come back and answer how your proposals and ideas may not fit into the context of what is being discussed.
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You are missing the point... that would be like starting HOI4 WWII with a situation where Germany won WWI. It would not be a WWII game at that point.
The same is true with what you are saying. If you cannot see that, that is a willful blind spot on your part.
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It would be a WW2, because it would still be a world war and a 2nd world war and in that alternate universe, they consider their war "World War 2" and consider our WW2 not WW2You are missing the point... that would be like starting HOI4 WWII with a situation where Germany won WWI. It would not be a WWII game at that point.
The same is true with what you are saying. If you cannot see that, that is a willful blind spot on your part.
If the Axis won, there will be no China or Soviet Union. Communism would be dead, along with the rest of the Slavic people (sorry for the harsh language). Axis victory would be something along the lines of The Man in High Castle.
Personally, I'd prefer not to start with such a premise, because by then it wouldn't be a proper Cold War ala EvW game, but more of a freeform grand-strategy game. Please, we are discussing a concept in the face of a EvW style game with a historical context of Allies and Soviet victory over Axis power in WW2, not a Democratic-Communist-Fascism Cold War, so don't derail this thread.
I'd agree that 1950 is a optimum start date. While the Warsaw Pact is not included yet, it can be argued that the ongoing arrangement at that time (Cominform) is already adequate enough.
And China wouldn't exist, but it would have several rebellions. The Japanese never managed to fully annex it because of that. Real life isn't like HOI4 where resistance disappears when a peace treaty is made.
Technically, not all Slavs would be dead. Japan and Italy didn't persecute them. Neither did Bulgaria or Romania. Also Germany saw some Slavs as "able to be Germanised". Half of Czechs were seen as untermensch, the other half as "able to be turned into aryans". Most certainly most would be dead, but not all.
Well unless Germany won against Italy and Japan the Cold War as that's ambiguous in The man in high castle.
Then we are discussing 2 completely different games and things. I thought we were discussing a Cold War grand strategy game, like EU4 is a grand strategy modern period game or like HOI4 is a WW2 strategy game and not a Cold War simulation. In which case I apologise for derailing.
In that case the 1950 is omptimum for a Cold War simulation, although personally I don't see the appeal of a Cold War simulation.
No problem. IMHO, it is possible to discuss this as a possible mod for such a base game if it arrives (something along the lines of Kaiserreich for HoI4 where Germany won WWI)
I don't think people want a Cold War simulation as well, but more along the lines of HoI4: there is the historical path, but there are many ways history can diverge from one point.
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How would the three sides be those? I understand US and Germany, but China makes no sense. China was getting slaughtered by Japan, in an Axis victory the cold war would be either US v Germany or US v Germany v Japan
I meant Japan which wasn't slaughtered, not china. Although the Chinese were hard to keep under control due to their massive population, so they could've eventually revolted.
That makes much more sense. And I agree about the chinese point, but there's no way they could've been a super power by then
Yeah, nah. I did mean Japan as at the time china was nowhere near strong. Obviously, china was though also rebellious as wisdom tells you, you need 10 men for each resistor, which means Japan would need more than a billion soldiers just to pacify China and stop any resistance,, so if they had won the WW2, china would probably have needed to agree to an agreement with China, having them as a puppet or something similar. Obviously, we won't know what would happen as luckily the axis lost
It could be an interesting mod or if they added it as a dlc, like in CK2. Also in Kaissereich the world is already changed when it started, here it would be more, like an earlier start date.
I also want it along the lines of HOI4, but I don't see how one can diverge much from 1950 and yeah, we both agree then it should diverge. We just disagree over when as I would prefer earlier divergence, so you can change it more, or maybe if they had a converter from HOI4 to Cold War, so you could convert your save or as a dlc or yeah as you said like a mod.
1950s divergences:
-Sino-Soviet split... or solidification (the split has it's beginnings once Khrushchev came to power)
- Arab victory over Israel... and the firm establishment of Pan-Arabism
- Korean Unification
-German Reunification
-French Indochinese victory
-etc etc etc
There are literally hundreds of alternative histories that are possible in the 1950s alone... trust me i think you would get your fill for the Cold War.
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