How will the Estates system play out for lategame mega blobs?

[ItThatAltersSanity]

Motivation
I ask the question out of two concerns. The gameplay concern that lategame EU4 gets boring as a mega blob and the simulation concern that freshly annexed far-foreign nobles/clergy/burghers don't impact mega blob estates. I acknowledge there's plenty of detail not revealed and these concerns might be addressed with other, unrevealed mechanics.

Background Reading
Johan said estate wealth is pooled per country and crown power is derived from total population. Furthermore, Tinto Talk #4 says:

One of the most defining parts of the government of a country in Project Caesar is the Estates mechanic. This has been one of the core parts of the game, with a full connection between the population and the estates. Keeping the estates satisfied while keeping their powers low is an important part of the gameplay loop. In this game, the Estates are also active entities and will do things on their own if they get enough power.

Tinto Talk #5 says:

Most importantly, the estate satisfaction also impacts the satisfaction of the pops that belong to that estate, possibly creating rebel factions or even civil wars.

Tinto Talk #3 further says:

Another one is [a pop's] current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

Gameplay Discussion
In EU4, a reasonably experienced and competent player could reliably expand their starting country to a mega blob that spans 3-5 continents by the lategame. There is no challenge left by this point as EU4 treated internal politics largely in aggregate. Sure, newly conquered provinces would have some local unrest which spawn rebel stacks. By and large, provinces annexed 30 game-years ago on one side of the world would be just as content as provinces annexed 200 game-years ago closer to the starting capital. Midgame for an expansionist blob is primarily about managing the various speed bumps which delay the inevitable destiny of the mega blob: teching up governance capacity, feeding vassals to eventually diplo-annex, admin mana to core, waiting for aggressive expansion to cool down.

Mandate of Heaven is a regional mechanic that allows a large blob to implode. Colonial Nation liberty desire is kept in check by out-blobbing them. There's nothing to make a vanilla Old World mega blob implode. No reason to interact with older states annexed long ago except to put down new buildings, tick up their development or maybe flip culture/religion (assuming you didn't so some stunt that tanks stability and global unrest). When your mega blob is the majority of the world, then there's no reason to meaningfully interact with the majority of the world in EU4 expansionist lategame.

Simulation Discussion
From my interpretation of the background reading material, mega blob estates won't budge much when new locations are freshly conquered. What do the pre-existing 10000 nobles care for the 10 nobles freshly conquered in some distant backwater? The mega blob nobility estate won't cause trouble for the sake of its newest members since they're a tiny minority. Those freshly conquered nobles will be imposed with the same estate privileges as everyone else. If they don't like the arrangements, they need to act among themselves (estate satisfaction influences pop satisfaction, the latter is what triggers rebels). So far, that's believable.

There's nothing inherently saying "people are discontent being part of a mega blob government that recruits their sons to die half a world away and taxes them to build vanity projects so far away they'll never get to see them". Project Caesar estates gather at the "call parliament" action to debate matters of importance. There's nothing saying saying "these members of the estates are so far away they cannot travel to join that debate". I would like sheer physical travel distance to be a factor that makes mega estates harder to please than for historically sized empires.

Concluding Thoughts
I'd like pops inside mega blob borders to still provide a challenge even though they're no longer giving manpower to a foreign, hostile tag. I try to predict how absolutism will be simulated. Crown power is related to total population but all the estates will get more powerful with more population too. So there'll always be some power shared with the estates. I'm hoping that'll remain the case for mega blobs: mega crown still having to share with mega estates.

It need not be estates that delivers challenge to the lategame mega blob, but if it's going to be a core gameplay loop, I'd like them to still be a challenge by endgame. Maybe revolutions will be what endgame peasant estates pull off to be the mega blob challenge. If so, I ask that such endgame challenges to be triggered by "how mega blob is the player's tag?" rather than what the calendar year is.

 

[Nerexa]

I think Johan answered somewhere, that freshly conquered territory probably won't have pops in your culture and/or religion and thus won't have any political powers. (Which means estate power contribution?)
Also estates provide useful bonus probably scaled with power and loyalty as in 4. Includi.g levies.
And the more satisfied they are, the more you can tax them.

So, despite maybe not being the mechanic to prevent super blobs, I think there will be incentives for the player to actively engage with the estates and to minmax walking on the edge as much as possible. Which can make you slip, which might carry significant punishment or the start of a collapse.

For preventing mega blobbs, therd is this mysterious "proximity" keyword floating around on preview for next dev diary.

 

[alexkowal123]

Motivation
I ask the question out of two concerns. The gameplay concern that lategame EU4 gets boring as a mega blob and the simulation concern that freshly annexed far-foreign nobles/clergy/burghers don't impact mega blob estates. I acknowledge there's plenty of detail not revealed and these concerns might be addressed with other, unrevealed mechanics.

Background Reading
Johan said estate wealth is pooled per country and crown power is derived from total population. Furthermore, Tinto Talk #4 says:

Tinto Talk #5 says:

Tinto Talk #3 further says:

Gameplay Discussion
In EU4, a reasonably experienced and competent player could reliably expand their starting country to a mega blob that spans 3-5 continents by the lategame. There is no challenge left by this point as EU4 treated internal politics largely in aggregate. Sure, newly conquered provinces would have some local unrest which spawn rebel stacks. By and large, provinces annexed 30 game-years ago on one side of the world would be just as content as provinces annexed 200 game-years ago closer to the starting capital. Midgame for an expansionist blob is primarily about managing the various speed bumps which delay the inevitable destiny of the mega blob: teching up governance capacity, feeding vassals to eventually diplo-annex, admin mana to core, waiting for aggressive expansion to cool down.

Mandate of Heaven is a regional mechanic that allows a large blob to implode. Colonial Nation liberty desire is kept in check by out-blobbing them. There's nothing to make a vanilla Old World mega blob implode. No reason to interact with older states annexed long ago except to put down new buildings, tick up their development or maybe flip culture/religion (assuming you didn't so some stunt that tanks stability and global unrest). When your mega blob is the majority of the world, then there's no reason to meaningfully interact with the majority of the world in EU4 expansionist lategame.

Simulation Discussion
From my interpretation of the background reading material, mega blob estates won't budge much when new locations are freshly conquered. What do the pre-existing 10000 nobles care for the 10 nobles freshly conquered in some distant backwater? The mega blob nobility estate won't cause trouble for the sake of its newest members since they're a tiny minority. Those freshly conquered nobles will be imposed with the same estate privileges as everyone else. If they don't like the arrangements, they need to act among themselves (estate satisfaction influences pop satisfaction, the latter is what triggers rebels). So far, that's believable.

There's nothing inherently saying "people are discontent being part of a mega blob government that recruits their sons to die half a world away and taxes them to build vanity projects so far away they'll never get to see them". Project Caesar estates gather at the "call parliament" action to debate matters of importance. There's nothing saying saying "these members of the estates are so far away they cannot travel to join that debate". I would like sheer physical travel distance to be a factor that makes mega estates harder to please than for historically sized empires.

Concluding Thoughts
I'd like pops inside mega blob borders to still provide a challenge even though they're no longer giving manpower to a foreign, hostile tag. I try to predict how absolutism will be simulated. Crown power is related to total population but all the estates will get more powerful with more population too. So there'll always be some power shared with the estates. I'm hoping that'll remain the case for mega blobs: mega crown still having to share with mega estates.

It need not be estates that delivers challenge to the lategame mega blob, but if it's going to be a core gameplay loop, I'd like them to still be a challenge by endgame. Maybe revolutions will be what endgame peasant estates pull off to be the mega blob challenge. If so, I ask that such endgame challenges to be triggered by "how mega blob is the player's tag?" rather than what the calendar year is.

I imagine the late game will be pretty bare bones on launch and late game content/mechanics will be released as dlc, sort of like decadence for the Ottomans

 

[EvsseH]

I imagine the late game will be pretty bare bones on launch and late game content/mechanics will be released as dlc, sort of like decadence for the Ottomans

I hope you're wrong but know that you're right

 

[Lightwell]

I think Johan answered somewhere, that freshly conquered territory probably won't have pops in your culture and/or religion and thus won't have any political powers. (Which means estate power contribution?)
Also estates provide useful bonus probably scaled with power and loyalty as in 4. Includi.g levies.
And the more satisfied they are, the more you can tax them.

So, despite maybe not being the mechanic to prevent super blobs, I think there will be incentives for the player to actively engage with the estates and to minmax walking on the edge as much as possible. Which can make you slip, which might carry significant punishment or the start of a collapse.

For preventing mega blobbs, therd is this mysterious "proximity" keyword floating around on preview for next dev diary.

I'd like to imagine estates only represent those with "legitimate" political power, meaning outsiders—while not represented as an estate—would still have their power and wealth all the same.

 

[alexkowal123]

I hope you're wrong but know that you're right

tbf the game looks like it's going to be very fleshed out on launch so I may be wrong

 

[EvsseH]

tbf the game looks like it's going to be very fleshed out on launch so I may be wrong

Johan said in a reply that the game would have “about” as much content on launch as EU4 has currently! which is crazy and probably false or measured in a weird way but a man can hope

 

[William the Merry]

Megablobs will certainly face the difficulties of the 17th century that all of europe faced with the rise of absolutism

 

[H.A.S.E.V.I.R.]

Megablobs will certainly face the difficulties of the 17th century that all of europe faced with the rise of absolutism

or instead of absolutism you trust in the invisible hand of decentralisation, free folk, parliaments and probarbly patron of the arts.
A american revolution carried out peacefully & internally never mind a century and a half early in the old world.

 

[William the Merry]

or instead of absolutism you trust in the invisible hand of decentralisation, free folk, parliaments and probarbly patron of the arts.
A american revolution carried out peacefully & internally never mind a century and a half early in the old world.

Eu5 will be a historical not utopian game

 

[Pls fix HRE]

Johan said in a reply that the game would have “about” as much content on launch as EU4 has currently! which is crazy and probably false or measured in a weird way but a man can hope

Depends on how he defines content cause in terms of actual mechanics and gameplay its certainly looking like that but in terms of """flavor""" wich in EU4 just means getting soem OP bonus by doing what the devs tell you to do and when to do it in your mission tree most likely not.

 

[William the Merry]

Depends on how he defines content cause in terms of actual mechanics and gameplay its certainly looking like that but in terms of """flavor""" wich in EU4 just means getting soem OP bonus by doing what the devs tell you to do and when to do it in your mission tree most likely not.

Flavour wasnt op bonuses when events and old missions