How to defend large land border with Soviet Union??

[Vajizz]

You are being way too expansionary. As a minor, it's disadvantageous to have large swaths of non-core territory. It creates partisan problems, eats up your TC (and as a result your ESE), makes it necessary to invest more in Infra, has little-no impact on manpower, and little impact on IC since core IC is more important. Imho, if you had started runs of 20xserial runs of IC in your core provinces, that would've been better and more useful. Not only that, but the AI in DH DOES do amphibious landings, so by taking more territories, you open yourself up to attacks from the rear.

ESE is a combination of Infra from capital to the division location, local revolt risk, and your TC.

You should not be neglecting Artilley. It is one of the cheapest research/construction brigades and as a defensive brigade, it's stat is very very good for the manpower cost.
Armor is fine to neglect. Imo Armored Cars + Artillery is a very cost effective defensive combo.
Forget Tacticals, for defensive wars, Tacticals are useless. You want Air Superiority or Air Scramble (but scramble requires SO MUCH RADAR INVESTMENT that imo it's not worth it)

You know there is a DH manual you can read....

If I were you, I'd focus on Forts + AA asap. It should be maxed within 3 years (with sufficient tech) given you have 100 IC. Then you can either improve the Infra from your capital to the front to improve supply, or build IC in your core NON BORDER provinces. Add AA in those provinces as well (you can build AA outside of provinces in 99x serials, which finish really quick, about 2-3 months iirc). Once this is done, I suggest you release non-core territory as puppets (make sure to build buildings for your puppets first). This provides you with free firendly troops and they have more usable IC. You also get more resources for your national IC expansion. You may need to gift your puppets some resources though, they sometimes don't have enough. Next focus on reducing the dissent from releasing puppets. Finally mass upgrade your out of date units (assuming 2+ techs behind by now, which makes it cheaper to upgrade). If you recovered your manpower as stated above, you should have plenty to weather through the SOV onslaught.

Thanks for your advice, it is very useful. My expansionary aims are simply because I enjoy it, and I want to control as much oil as possible (I trade oil with several countries and have decent relations with the USSR as a result). The combination of ART + AC is a good one and I shall focus on them.

I like the emphasis on land forts and AA, but again, they cost manpower, but if it is preferable to fighters than I shall do so. I have invested in radars and have started building them, but am unsure where to place them. I put radars in all the provinces that I have air bases, and after that, on all border territories, is this a smart move?


So if I release puppets, how much of a manpower boost do I receive? And a country like Romania for example, will I be receiving their oil on favourable terms if I release them as a puppet. Also, what kind of buildings should I build before releasing the puppets. I have invested in air bases, but what else? AA? Industry? Forts?

My absolute priority in deciding whether or not to release puppets is ultimately to have the optimum IC available to me. Friendly troops would be a bonus, but max IC remains the abstract teleological goal, so would appreciate any advice on how to go about securing it. (Bearing in mind I have the possibility of loading multiple saves, from pre-Yugoslavia war in 1939, to pre-annex Turkey 1939 and post-annex Turkey 1939.

If you insist that releasing puppets is the optimum solution, how many? I annexed Albania, Bulgaria, Romania & possibly Turkey, but Yugoslavia was annexed by either USSR or UK.

My idea is to build fortifications on Greece's core national borders, and build lots of factories in the provinces behind them.

Should I be building industries in my mountain borders that contain land fortifications and AA as well? Also, in my border provinces with land fortifications, should I improve infrastructure (they are at 10%, 40%, 10% and 30% respectively)?

And to improve my supply chain, should I build a trail of improved infrastructure from Greece to my western, northern and eastern borders? Should I focus on one province at a time linking them to the front, or all of the provinces surrounding my core provinces, and gradually expand outwards? Also, bearing in mind the cost of manpower for infrastructure, what level infra should I be aiming for? 70%? 100%?? Which provinces should I be prioritising? Hills over mountains?

I essentially have at least until 1946 theoretically and more likely, a lot more time to focus on defence. Wouldn't an army of fighters help to reduce the invasion impact?

Should I convert my 8 TACs and if so, to what? INT or FIGHTERS, or an alternative? The TACS were crucial in beating Turkey in an early 1939 war, but as I am falling behind on research I do not have the slots to research multiple aircraft types. In the long-term, I would have to focus on 2, possibly 3 types of aircraft but am unsure which. Wouldn't a few naval bombers help to repel naval invasions?


I am sorry for all these questions. I have played HOI since the very first one, and read these forums regularly, I just cannot seem to get concrete answers to the aforementioned questions, which pop into my head time and time again, in every scenario I play.

 

[Limith]

Thanks for your advice, it is very useful. My expansionary aims are simply because I enjoy it, and I want to control as much oil as possible (I trade oil with several countries and have decent relations with the USSR as a result). The combination of ART + AC is a good one and I shall focus on them.

I like the emphasis on land forts and AA, but again, they cost manpower, but if it is preferable to fighters than I shall do so. I have invested in radars and have started building them, but am unsure where to place them. I put radars in all the provinces that I have air bases, and after that, on all border territories, is this a smart move?

AA is good to protect industry and your forward troops when your Interceptors can't cover every border. I usually go for both AA and Intercepters. Radar on your airport is bad. You want radar in provinces where you want to be able to intercept the enemy, so on the border and in key IC provinces. Radar increases the chance that Air Scramble succeeds. You do not need radar for Air Superiority (although it can help), What happens is if you have radar, and an enemy plane is detected, all planes on air scramble will arrive in one hour in the province to fight the enemy (afaik). This makes Air Scramble superior to Air Superiority (since AS is semi-random), however, you NEED radar to make it effective (since base detection is low). On the other hand, having AA+AS also works since with AA, the enemy bombers also take damage while your planes (slowly randomly) get there. And imo, AA is cheaper to build/research than Radar, so I prefer AA+AS.

Remember that your manpower recovers once you demobilize and then remobilize. AA isn't damaged in demobilization, so it is kind of an exploit. Just build the AA/manpower buildings BEFORE you demobilize while you still have manpower. Then once you demobilize (to 0 manpower) the buildings are still there, and then once you remobilize, you get the manpower back.

So if I release puppets, how much of a manpower boost do I receive? And a country like Romania for example, will I be receiving their oil on favourable terms if I release them as a puppet. Also, what kind of buildings should I build before releasing the puppets. I have invested in air bases, but what else? AA? Industry? Forts?

Puppets get 100% of manpower from core provinces, so they can provide more troops than you would (you get a very very small amount from non-core provinces).
You get 50% of all resources from puppets automatically so you don't need to have trade deals. Puppets have 100% extraction rate of resources in core provinces. For non core provinces, your normal extraction rate is MUCH LOWER than 50%, so it is BETTER to have puppets.

Puppets generally won't build any buildings, so build what you would need before releasing them (forts on their borders with SU, sea forts + land forts + AA on beach provinces). If you have the time, build a secondary line of forts or maybe Infra to better supply your army. IC won't hurt (not too much since it'd be a waste, but enough so your puppets can supply your armies on puppet territories, maybe 10 IC total in a medium puppet, 5 IC in a small, and if it is 1-2 provinces, then just forget it), but this is totally optional.

My idea is to build fortifications on Greece's core national borders, and build lots of factories in the provinces behind them.

Should I be building industries in my mountain borders that contain land fortifications and AA as well? Also, in my border provinces with land fortifications, should I improve infrastructure (they are at 10%, 40%, 10% and 30% respectively)?

I never build IC in border provinces. Build AA in heavy IC provinces.
Infra only increases your ESE, you don't need high Infra everywhere, just a link from your capital to the desired front and Infra across the front. Higher ESE = faster org regen. Imo, as long as I can get 95% ESE or so with offensive selected (the red forward button increases ESE if you pay a monthly supply cost), I'm fine with it. The value is up to you.

And to improve my supply chain, should I build a trail of improved infrastructure from Greece to my western, northern and eastern borders? Should I focus on one province at a time linking them to the front, or all of the provinces surrounding my core provinces, and gradually expand outwards? Also, bearing in mind the cost of manpower for infrastructure, what level infra should I be aiming for? 70%? 100%?? Which provinces should I be prioritising? Hills over mountains?

That's your choice what level it is. You don't need high IC everywhere.

I essentially have at least until 1946 theoretically and more likely, a lot more time to focus on defence. Wouldn't an army of fighters help to reduce the invasion impact?

Should I convert my 8 TACs and if so, to what? INT or FIGHTERS, or an alternative? The TACS were crucial in beating Turkey in an early 1939 war, but as I am falling behind on research I do not have the slots to research multiple aircraft types. In the long-term, I would have to focus on 2, possibly 3 types of aircraft but am unsure which. Wouldn't a few naval bombers help to repel naval invasions?

NAV isn't really necessary, sea forts are good enough if you plant some units on the beach provinces and you have a mobile reserve of Cav or Arm nearby. INT is better against bombers, FTR is better against enemy fighters. Imo I prefer INTS, but it's up to you. You don't need too many fighters. Or else you'd overload your airport capacity (1 level = 1 division optimal). AA is a good investment imo, and if your ground stacks are large enough, bombers should be fighting quite unfavorably.

I am sorry for all these questions. I have played HOI since the very first one, and read these forums regularly, I just cannot seem to get concrete answers to the aforementioned questions, which pop into my head time and time again, in every scenario I play.

No problem.

If you need answers, read the manual. Novapaddy spent a long time on it.

 

[unmerged(425784)]

Try to make land forts in mountains...and encirclements...:-?

 

[Vajizz]

Thank you Limith for your detailed responses, they are excellent! Any further suggestions, alternative approaches, debate on my strategy are more than welcome.

I have liberated Turkey and Romania as suggested (after building level 10 fortifications at the borders), but both my IC and TC drop significantly. How does a reduced TC help me fight my battles?

In addition, I experimented with building land fortifications before I release my puppets, and let the game go on for 6-7 years, but these fortifications were never built by my AI puppet. So does this mean I have to keep Romania and Turkey annexed, until the fortifications are built, and then relinquish control?

 

[Vajizz]

One further question regarding puppets. Turkey was a Stalinist Republic before I annexed it. Once I liberate it (after claiming some of its western provinces for my own), it soon after reverts to being a Stalinist Socialist Republic, even though it is an ally of mine.

Also, once I liberated Romania, USSR immediately placed lots of men at the border, while previously when it was Greek-controlled, there were hardly any forces amassing at the border. Is this an indication of how the AI perceives puppet states, or that the AI is aware that a small nation has over extended itself and not bother too much?

 

[Limith]

One further question regarding puppets. Turkey was a Stalinist Republic before I annexed it. Once I liberate it (after claiming some of its western provinces for my own), it soon after reverts to being a Stalinist Socialist Republic, even though it is an ally of mine.

It could have been influenced or an event happened. You can just use acceptall (F12->type accept all->enter) and coup it back. Make sure to turn off acceptall after (F12->acceptall->enter).

Also, once I liberated Romania, USSR immediately placed lots of men at the border, while previously when it was Greek-controlled, there were hardly any forces amassing at the border. Is this an indication of how the AI perceives puppet states, or that the AI is aware that a small nation has over extended itself and not bother too much?

The USSR ai probably views Romania as a threat since it historically did. The generic ai is set to cover its borders if possible. If it didn't cover the border with you, it was either set to ignore, or it had a higher priority elsewhere (your threat was = 0 in ai/not defined). AI isn't that smart.

I have liberated Turkey and Romania as suggested (after building level 10 fortifications at the borders), but both my IC and TC drop significantly. How does a reduced TC help me fight my battles?

While on allied territory, your units take up allied TC, not your own TC. So your effective TC is still more or less the same as long as your ally has enough TC to support your units on allied territory. If your ally does not have enough supplies to supply your divisions on allied territory, then it will use your TC instead when calculating ESE (afaik)

In addition, I experimented with building land fortifications before I release my puppets, and let the game go on for 6-7 years, but these fortifications were never built by my AI puppet. So does this mean I have to keep Romania and Turkey annexed, until the fortifications are built, and then relinquish control?

Yes.

Alternatively, you can claim the border provinces (right click->claim province), and then it won't be given to the puppet on release. Then once you are done building, you can remove the claims and then give the territory to them in diplomacy (or gift them some money and they will initiate the trade negotiations automatically to take back their core territory)

 

[Vajizz]

Thanks for all the responses, they have been most insightful. After a long time of playing, I am actually really getting into the tactical side of warfare and am enjoying the game even more so now.

After having played consecutively and employing the defensive structure of an impregnable core provinces of Greece, with lots of interceptors etc. the USSR never attacked me, and in fact the USA joined the Allies and began an invasion in late 1940s... So maybe I will try a strategy of offensive warfare research after annexing Turkey and Syria, whilst constantly building IC in the core provinces to improve TC... I guess after that it will be all about timing when to strike the USSR, as I have a mountainous border after annexing Turkey, and the European theatre of war.

With a country like Greece and 100IC to spend on production/upgrades, what kind of offensive long-term strategy would be best, as a 'junior' ally in the war against the USSR, once I deem they are at their weakest? I am building lots of mountain troops to reach across to the Caspian Sea and hopefully embark on a southern trip to Stalingrad. I would be worried about troop movement... would a combination of MOT + MOUNTAIN do, with lots of tactical bombers and fighters?? What brigade attachments should I focus on? And playing from 1940 or so, is it too late to start investing in 'Armour' (bearing in mind I do not even have the Experimental Tank researched at this point)?

 

[Epaminondas]

I am building lots of mountain troops to reach across to the Caspian Sea and hopefully embark on a southern trip to Stalingrad.

What will you do once you get there? I think Limith's point is that (apart from the fun involved) this sort of approach is basically wasted effort. The only real long-term offensive strategy available to you is to cross your fingers.

You're not going to make the Soviets surrender by taking Stalingrad - there are a bunch of other cities your going to have to take before you get a Bitter Peace - so all you're going to manage to do is hang those troops (that it took so much effort to build) out to dry. As a minor you've done incredibly well but, barring a nuke fest between the majors, at some point the wheel's going to turn and crush you under it unless you have a solid plan of defence in place.

If it were me, the first thing I'd do would be to decide on exactly what I was prepared to settle for in terms of territorial gains. The second thing would be to subordinate everything else I did for the rest of the game to achieving a stalemate with those gains in place. Granted that's not going to give you the same crash-bang-wallop sort of fun, but it could be extremely satisfying just the same.

 

[Vajizz]

What will you do once you get there? I think Limith's point is that (apart from the fun involved) this sort of approach is basically wasted effort. The only real long-term offensive strategy available to you is to cross your fingers.

You're not going to make the Soviets surrender by taking Stalingrad - there are a bunch of other cities your going to have to take before you get a Bitter Peace - so all you're going to manage to do is hang those troops (that it took so much effort to build) out to dry. As a minor you've done incredibly well but, barring a nuke fest between the majors, at some point the wheel's going to turn and crush you under it unless you have a solid plan of defence in place.

If it were me, the first thing I'd do would be to decide on exactly what I was prepared to settle for in terms of territorial gains. The second thing would be to subordinate everything else I did for the rest of the game to achieving a stalemate with those gains in place. Granted that's not going to give you the same crash-bang-wallop sort of fun, but it could be extremely satisfying just the same.

You're right in that I am being greedy and overextending myself. To be honest, I have run out of manpower to build more MOT or MONT, so I am relying on air craft, but even so, my MOT + MONT do not suffice to cover my long border with the USSR. As the USA has now entered the war against the USSR and joined the Allies, and has nuked USSR puppets in Europe several times, as well as the UK currently undergoing an amphibious invasion of Europe via southern Italy, my thoughts were to wait around until hopefully the Allies take western Europe, and as they are steamrolling their way through the East, concentrate all my forces in eastern Turkey and also invade the Soviet Union at the right time.

As it stands, I doubt they will attack me if I just sit patiently, but I could just be naive.

Your idea does sound good to choose my territorial gains, and building forts as a defensive perimeter is a good idea as I have lots of IC and little manpower. I have been unable to find a thread or post in these forums of somebody doing a successful deep defence, so am unsure how I would even eventuate one, especially considering my small army (air force is getting stronger and stronger).

 

[Eugenioso]

how about puppeting? they will give you divs.

 

[Epaminondas]

I have been unable to find a thread or post in these forums of somebody doing a successful deep defence, so am unsure how I would even eventuate one, especially considering my small army (air force is getting stronger and stronger).

The scale of the game doesn't lend itself to defence in depth as it's usually understood. That would occur within a province rather than across provinces, and trying to replicate it on this scale is almost impossible without the vast forces of a Russia or a China at your disposal. One adaptation you can make - though it's frowned upon by purists - is to deploy reserve divisions in the provinces immediately behind those you are defending so that you cycle them into the line while you withdraw low strength and (especially) low org divisions for R and R.

 

[Faulty]

The scale of the game doesn't lend itself to defence in depth as it's usually understood. That would occur within a province rather than across provinces, and trying to replicate it on this scale is almost impossible without the vast forces of a Russia or a China at your disposal. One adaptation you can make - though it's frowned upon by purists - is to deploy reserve divisions in the provinces immediately behind those you are defending so that you cycle them into the line while you withdraw low strength and (especially) low org divisions for R and R.

Why is that frowned on? That's how I do all my big battles, offence and defence, and it's how the big battles went down historically (eg Stalingrad was a meat grinder of hundreds of divisions over six months)

 

[Epaminondas]

That's how it went down historically, and that's how it would typically go down in a player-player game. But the AI doesn't have that level of finesse so doesn't/can't use the same tactic. For purists, that makes it an exploit - beating up on an inferior opponent. For my part, I like to believe that any opponent (artificial or otherwise) is inferior so I have no trouble with it

 

[Kannon]

But the AI doesn't have that level of finesse so doesn't/can't use the same tactic.

AI shuffling reserves is probably the most regular thing I see in the game.

 

[Epaminondas]

Really? Shuffling them in and out of combat? Wow - that's a definite improvement and kudos to whoever coded it.
Some time back I was led to believe that it couldn't be done, and I haven't questioned that since. Okay, so I'm a purist afterall. Thanks Kannon.

 

[Epaminondas]

I've just done some testing using an old save, and I'm not sure that we're talking about the same thing. When I say 'cycling' I mean the withdrawal of badly affected individual units from a continuing combat and their replacement by stronger and better org-ed individual units. I'm certainly seeing whole blocks of units vacating a combat and being replaced by other blocks, but that's not the same thing because it most often permits the defending units some recovery time during the change over, and very frequently entails the complete burning out or total destruction of some of the original units.

I don't want to hijack the thread, Kannon, so maybe you can let me know of your experience through pm?