HoI 3 / III TFH Supply-System

[GeneralGrievous]

Hello from Germany,

first at all I want to apologize for my english, i am not really good at this, sry.

I am a DH-Veteran trying now to play HoI3 and esp. the supply-system scares me a lot :-( I know that the supply-system of HoI3 is very challenging and I have studied the forums, Y-tube etc. a lot beforde starting m first test game. So I have 2 questions on the supply-system:

1.
I have read, that the IC in the provinces provides some supply for the units so that the supply doesn't have to get delivered to the stock. Is it therefore nessercary that the IC-Request for supply in the production is set to 100%? Or is it adequate, to have enough supply in stock?

2.
For my second question I integrate the following picture. There is one of my (Flieger-) Corps in a province with 100% infra. ALL off the provinces around have 100% infra. Its only 11 provinces away from my capitol, only one (!) province in conquered territory, all the others are national provinces. The Corps was in the position seen after the end of the poland-campaign. And now it was without supply after lauchning BARBAROSSA for weeks!!!!! . So I moved it to the next national province and it was supplied. Removing leads to same result, the corps wasn't supplied. I have the same problem sometimes with my troops in France: Fully 100% infra, no fighting, no movement and however troops are still not supplied. I am very interrested in understanding the supply-sytem of Hoi3 so I hope that you can help me.

I have all course all supply techs reserched.

Thanks in advance.

GG

 

[GarfunkeL]

Hey buddy! Don't worry about your English, it's perfectly understandable. And yeah, the supply system is pretty complex due to engine limitations and few questionable design choices Pdox made.

1. You don't need to produce all the supply required every day if your stockpile is large enough. The number given at the Production screen reflects demand on that day to ensure that the stockpile doesn't get smaller.

2. This sounds like a bug which I very faintly recall from early days of HoI3 and it really shouldn't happen in the latest version. Which version of HoI3 do you have? You should register it here on forums so that other people can see which version you're playing and give appropriate answers as things changed quite a bit between launch, SF, FTM and especially TFH.

In general, supply flows from your capital to every unit every day and it travels one province per day. There's an inherent supply tax per province, which is reduced by tech and there is a provincial limitation on how much supply can go through, influenced by level of infrastructure and another tech. It is not possible to stockpile automatically after a very basic level, as supplies in a province that are not needed (above that basic level) will be sent back to the capital. The system is also kind of stupid because supplies do not travel "sideways", rather they always move forward or backward only. This makes creating supply "highways" bit problematic as while they do work, they are not as efficient as players often imagine.

There are few things you can do to enhance supply throughout:
1) Upgrade infrastructure as much as possible - with good practicals in TFH, it becomes pretty fast (as in few months per level).
2) Use supply convoys between friendly ports even if you're in the same continent but note that there is a 10-province limit between ports, so you can basically only supply 1 forward port in an area. You can manually adjust this in the game files and I recommend doing that and putting it down to 1 so that, for example, you could send supply from Danzig to both Tallinn and Riga. Note that if your frontline gets "far enough" from the port, the supply system ignores the port and just requests supply straight from the capital.
3) Use air transports to piggy back from capital-to-airfield-to-airfield-to-front lines. This only works as long as there is a continuous demand for supplies and fuel at the final destination. The transport planes doing the hauling keep requesting supplies and fuel so you only need to micromanage the destination provinces.
4) Don't use Strategic Redeployment as it plays havoc with the supply system that cannot keep up with the movement of the units. Or if you have to use it, remember to give the supply system ample time to re-organize itself and "calm down".
5) For overseas invasions, it is very important that the destination ports are level 10. The sending port size does not matter, only the recipient size.

Good luck!

 

[50shadesofgreen]

Hi.

Regarding your first point, a clarification may be needed.

If your slider is set to making zero supplies then your factory a unit may be sitting on is making zero supplies also. So you will need some slider input and a fair quantity of IC in that province to supply a large sized unit.

Also the province built supply only works if there is a mainland link to your capital.

So for the UK I can base all ships in Dover and part of their supply will be generated by the IC in Dover. If I'm making 200 supplies and 1% of my total IC is in Dover, then Dover should make 2 supplies.

Even if I built 10 IC in Malta, as there is no land connection, all supply will need to be convoyed.

 

[GeneralGrievous]

Thanks for you answers so far. I play THF 4.02.

I have already studied the supply-system of TFH and thought I had understood it.
- 100% Infra
- command-structur with mostly Log-Generals (xxxxxx=Log xxxxx=6er+Log xxxx=Log/Off xxx=Log/Off; Log/Def xx= Panzerdivionen also LogGenerals
- massive use of convois
- Air Trsp for critical units
- the only mistake was using sometimes stratgic redeployment , but imho this cant be the cause for my problem above

Btw: the Army below the unsupplied Corps was a few days before based in Warsaw. And it was -as its superior Army Group (left below on the picture)- unsupplied. After I moved it one province to the north, its now supplied, while its Army-Group is still without supply. Very strange...

So perhaps someone can clarify the point of the supply-production within the provinces? Actually I set 0% IC on producing supplies and my stock is still growing. I think I will change this up to 100% IC on supplies, perhaps this works. Is the factory in a captured factory producing supplies so that these supplies can be immediately consumed by the troops in that province? I dont get it :-(

Thx so far.

 

[Wraith11B]

So, the stockpile can grow despite no IC being dedicated to supply production because of residual supplies in the system flowing back to the Capital.

 

[50shadesofgreen]

....and this flie of supplies flowing back to your capital may not be only supplies you produced. They could be enemy supply from provinces you just overran. They could also be flowing from puppet states that you have a land connection to. For example I believe Slovakia recognises Berlin as the main depot and will work hard to feed Berlin with its enormous supply need.

Switch on the supply map and have a peek at where your flow is coming from.

 

[GeneralGrievous]

Hello,
the post was down...well...for reasons. But one of the moderaters was so kind to re-post. Thx BEST_MODERATOR_IN_THE_PARADOX_UNIVERSE

@Wraith11B: ok, my stockpile can still growe although I dont spend IC on it. There are many reasons, perhaps trade, convois, marionettes. But has this influence on the "output" of supply? In my opinion it takes 1 day per province to carry the supply to the front. Does the "supply system" do this output without regarding the input?

And the other imho very importand question:

Is the suplly only provided for units, or in general???

For example: Division A is in a province 20x away from its capital. Now the unit moves forward for 3 provinces and another units moves in the originally province: is the supply now going back to the capitol? Or is it consumed by the "new" division in this province? Or passes the supply forword to the moving division? The problem I have, that unmoved units, with no combat or other activity are unsupllied within a 100% infra etc. (stationary Def-Units at the Atlantikwall).

@50shadesofgreen: Thx for your note with the connection to the capitol. You also explained that I ca get supply by overran enemy provinces. How can I get information about that (it would make absolutely sense, if you rewiev perhaps the North African Campaign in WW2)

Thx for your answers so far.

GG

 

[50shadesofgreen]

Working out supply from puppets is easier. Put map in supply mode and you should see the green provinces churning out supply towards their needy units. Click on the available supply in Slovakia and the adjacent provinces.

In recently overrun provinces, again use the supply map and check what supply is in the provinces just after you enter.

With those odd pockets that are always out of supply, it's a bug. There is a kind of gradient that supply flows down. This slope is measured in nodes from the supply depot. Supply should flow out to units by going up a node (or two) each day. Check the supply map and see how many nodes you are away from your depot. Check back one province and I would expect an issue with the calculated node length. This acts as a barrier to supply.

 

[Kovax]

Hello,
the post was down...well...for reasons. But one of the moderaters was so kind to re-post. Thx BEST_MODERATOR_IN_THE_PARADOX_UNIVERSE

@Wraith11B: ok, my stockpile can still growe although I dont spend IC on it. There are many reasons, perhaps trade, convois, marionettes. But has this influence on the "output" of supply? In my opinion it takes 1 day per province to carry the supply to the front. Does the "supply system" do this output without regarding the input?

And the other imho very importand question:

Is the suplly only provided for units, or in general???

For example: Division A is in a province 20x away from its capital. Now the unit moves forward for 3 provinces and another units moves in the originally province: is the supply now going back to the capitol? Or is it consumed by the "new" division in this province? Or passes the supply forword to the moving division? The problem I have, that unmoved units, with no combat or other activity are unsupllied within a 100% infra etc. (stationary Def-Units at the Atlantikwall).

@50shadesofgreen: Thx for your note with the connection to the capitol. You also explained that I ca get supply by overran enemy provinces. How can I get information about that (it would make absolutely sense, if you rewiev perhaps the North African Campaign in WW2)

Thx for your answers so far.

GG

Supply is REQUESTED by the individual units (the system sends somewhat more than what's required, and the surplus is sent back if it's not used for regular upkeep or reinforcement), but can be consumed by other units along the way. In your example, the unit moving forward would cause the supply pipeline to extend, or possibly to be redrawn from scratch if the unit shifted laterally and the supplies already enroute are no longer on the path. Any other unit moving into the supply pipeline could use some or all of those supplies, as I discovered to my dismay when GER sent over 100 "gourmet" brigades to sit on my supply lines and eat all my supplies and fuel, without advancing to the front to help.

I've suffered from occasional hiccups in the supply system, such as when a garrison unit a few provinces off the regular supply lines was getting NO supply after over a year in place. The only solution was to move it to an adjacent province, where it drew supplies normally.

The only way I can think of to view captured supplies would be to use the supply map overlay and check the province that's been taken over before the end of the day, when the surplus will be sent back to the capital. You would then have to subtract your own unit's supplies that it brough with it to determine how much was captured.

If you want to witness true supply insanity, try puppeting the SU. When the SU surrenders, all of its remaining military units will suddenly need to draw supply from your own capital (if it's connected by land). You'll see your 100,000 stockpiled supplies vanish into the system and drop to 0 in a few weeks, despite your efforts to produce supplies to prevent the crash, and then suddenly ALL of the Soviet supply stockpile will begin to show up in your capital, followed a couple of weeks later by the excess supplies sent to all of those Soviet miltary units, and your stockpile will go from 0 to 100,000 again, with plenty of excess wasted. Enjoy.

 

[GarfunkeL]

If you are playing TFH, then I would recommend moving that HQ one province closer to your capital and see what happens. If it gets supply again, then move it forward and see if that fixes it.

 

[GeneralGrievous]

Hello and thx for your comments. I have made some tests in order to understand the supply system.
@Kovax
You are right, I have made similar expierences:
Usually I dont spend any IC on supply as far I have enough in the stockpile. As I understodd the anwers here and the info about the supply-system, it doesnt matter if you spend IC or not, it would not increase the supply of your fighting units. But for testing purposes I did so for 3 days and the result was interesting:

So far, so good, but my fighting divions at the eastern front and sometimes also the not-fighting division at the Atlantikwall ran out of supply. So I have spended the requested 100% IC for the supply production:

My stockpile was reduced from over 11k to 8k of supplies. On the other hand the supply situation of the figthing divisions in the east increased little by little...at least...perhaps I have captured accidentally some depots...I dont know...

At the moment I really doubt the statement that only the stockpile of the capital supplies the units...

@GarfunkeL
You are right, thats what I have tried and it works in most cases. If a unit is more than 2-3 days without supply although there is functional supply route then it makes sense to move the unit 1 province back. But this wont't explain the basic problem with the supply system :-( Escpecially if you have a guarding divison in a friendly province with absolutely no apparent supply problems...

As I already mentioned, this I my first testing campaign with THF after modding it for my requirements. I have build many carriers for testing reasons so that my army is relatively weak, only 23 Motorized and Armoured Divisions...and its nearly impossible to supply them...with EVERYTHING targeted to this problem (infra, techs, commanders).

So I am really thankfull for any tips, explanations and tricks for the supply system.

 

[GeneralGrievous]

Hello,

I just want to share my further experience with the supply system of TFH. I think have found my mistake in general, but there are still some things that I dont understand or dont work at my version (bug in general or modding-mistakes by myself).

My main mistake was to play only for 2-days-ingame. The reason was very simple: I like the micromanagement and so the game pauses automatically every hour because of so many events, decisions, orders etc. After playing for more then 3 days the supply-situation changed decisively. That makes me realize that the basic mechanic of the supply-system is:
1. day: No supply is provided
2. day: the supply is calculated, but still no supply is transported, with the exception of convoi-routes (but the supplies are still not distributed to the rear)
3. day: the supply transport starts and reaches the nearby units (not sure in what kind of range)
4. day: the supply reaches more and more the distant units (not really sure how this works)

This is proved by my supply-stockpile: the stockpile went dramatically down after the 3rd day! In the time before I had played years (!) without spending any IC on supply.

Another point of the supply-system seems to be the capture of supply-depots. This was already mentionend by @Kovax , and I think he is right. There must be such a mechanic because my leading light amoured divisions had most of the time enough supply to go on and on, although they were over hundred kilometer ahead. I dont know how it exactly works, but if your divions move into an enemy province it seems that they get some supply. Thereby it doesnt matter whether this province has IC or ressources. In my game this proved by many small encirclements at the eastern front: these divisons, which from time to time captured enemy provinces had still enough supply to move on, while other divions broke down. The best example is my 9.PzDiv in Rostov: the division moved there from the beginning of Operation Barbarossa (from Romania) and had no functional supply route until the capture of Mariupol.

Here is the suply situation at the northern eastfront:

But there are still things that I dont understand: why is this Army Corps in France/Bretagne out of supply???? I dont get it. I had to move to the port and then back...

I am very thankful for further informations about the supply-system.

GG

 

[themousemaster]

That bottom picture indicates something that you need to know about supply, that is critical to maintaining a coherent push.

Every unit in this game gets its supply from the nearest depot... which, as long as it can trace a land-route back to it's capital, that will be it. Notice the green province just above the out-of-supply HQ? that's because any extra supply at the province to the left of it isn't going to the HQ, it's taking the most efficient route back to the supply hub (I.E. your capital). The same is true of the port province to the HQ's right; the ships may be dropping off supply at the port, but the only unit that gets to use it is the one on the port. the rest are going back to the capital.

The HQ, however, should get supply either in 1 or 2 days time, as the green province 2 to the right of it should move supplies to the grey province just between, and then into it's province.

It's why you can have an attacking force move seemingly endlessly into enemy territory with few problems in a straight line... but turn even a single province off that direct path, and either the unit that moved off, or the ones that stayed on, may very well get hosed.

That said, you can get your HQ back into supply fairly easily. Have it move to the port province to it's left, and it will "pick up" some of the leftover supply that is there (as indicated by the blue colored province), and then have it walk (that's WALK, and absolutely NOT strat-deploy) back to where it is. It will "bring" 14 (30?) days worth of supply with it from the port province, which should be enough for it then to re-establish a main supply route with the capital.

I realize that won't do you much good, since this is occupied France we are looking at... but a similar concept can be used by large formations pushing deep into large enemy territory. If you want them to get back into supply, and don't want to wait the time for a fresh supply "route" to be established from the capital, have them leave their area and move back into an established supply route that is still running for other divisions.

I.E. just as in real life, the best way to solve a supply shortage is to pull back closer to your own logistical lines. (granted, the game has a really... backwards way of accomplishing that, most players of this game wish it was somewhat better ;p)

 

[Kovax]

As you observed, units advancing into enemy territory can capture whatever supply happens to be in the province at the time, unless it's already been picked up by enemy units in the province. Since the supply system is designed to slightly over-supply units, there is usually some surplus. Cutting a major enemy supply line can provide a significant supply boost to the units involved, although they're limited to carrying only a few days of supply (enough for something like 7-30 days, depending on which expansion you play). Taking an undefended province that's not along any line of supply gains you nothing, as there is no supply to take.

It appears that IC-producing provinces can provide some supply for units in that province, but any excess will be routed back to your capital, or depot, if there is no land connection to the capital, and if that province is not directly along an existing supply route. It will not province supply for units in nearby provinces, other than by routing it all the way to your capital and then back to them, unless there's already a supply route between them.

That's an absolute killer for Japan, since the supply system generally sets the mainland depot in northern China, making for an absurdly long overland supply route if/when Japan invades SE Asia or India. Pumping supplies into ports can help **IF** those ports are directly on the supply route, otherwise they get routed all the way back to the depot, and supplies to the front are then constrained by the limited infrastructure between the depot and the distant front.

In spite of the supply issues, I find it far more entertaining to have HOI3's "mostly believable" supply limitations, rather than merely a cap on the number of units you can supply in a province, no matter how far it is from your source of supply, as in the few other games that even bother with supply limitations. For those who don't want to deal with supply, the TFH expansion has an "arcade mode" setting which teleports supply directly from your capital to the individual units.

 

[GeneralGrievous]

@themousemaster:

The HQ, however, should get supply either in 1 or 2 days time, as the green province 2 to the right of it should move supplies to the grey province just between, and then into it's province.

I thought so...but after 3 days there was still no supply, although the adjacent provinces have both a "green" support status. This problem rises up from time to time to many of the guarding divisions in France: they dont move, they dont fight, they have 100% (or minimum 90%) infra...and suddently they ran out of supply...and they will go down to 0%org if you dont remove them.

That said, you can get your HQ back into supply fairly easily. Have it move to the port province to it's left, and it will "pick up" some of the leftover supply that is there (as indicated by the blue colored province), and then have it walk (that's WALK, and absolutely NOT strat-deploy) back to where it is. It will "bring" 14 (30?) days worth of supply with it from the port province, which should be enough for it then to re-establish a main supply route with the capital.

Yes, thats also my experience. But if this problems refers to an airforce-unit, then you have a big problem, because the unit looses twice most of its organisation during the two redeployments...

I.E. just as in real life, the best way to solve a supply shortage is to pull back closer to your own logistical lines. (granted, the game has a really... backwards way of accomplishing that, most players of this game wish it was somewhat better ;p)

No, this is not automatically the solution. You have to move the unit into a province with a green/turqouise supply status. It doesnt matter whether its closer to your capital or not, thats at least my experience. I have therefore reposted the picture in my first post. At that time all the divisions with no supply (HQ and Inf) were moved closer to the capitol=> no effect. You have to move the unit considering the supply-map.

@Kovax

Taking an undefended province that's not along any line of supply gains you nothing, as there is no supply to take.

Are you sure? Thats not my experience. The follwing picture shows many cut-off areas with no units. If you move a division into the province, the supply status is immediately "green/turqouise" (see 2nd picture above). Thats why I know move all my following units through these areas- and it worked so far.

This seems to be proved by my 9.PzDiv (see pic post above): after reaching the northern Krim area the division had no enemy contact until Rostov and never ran out of supply. I know that your argument is more logical, but...its HoI3...its some kind of weird...sometimes :-(

the TFH expansion has an "arcade mode" setting which teleports supply directly from your capital to the individual units.

This is interessting, because I am still testing the game mechanics (i.e. carrier-fight=> offtopic: is there a good thread explaining the details of using carriers?). How can I use this "arcade-supply-modus"?

Thx to you both @Kovax and @themousemaster , the further information are very helpful for me.

 

[themousemaster]

No, this is not automatically the solution. You have to move the unit into a province with a green/turqouise supply status. It doesnt matter whether its closer to your capital or not, thats at least my experience. I have therefore reposted the picture in my first post. At that time all the divisions with no supply (HQ and Inf) were moved closer to the capitol=> no effect. You have to move the unit considering the supply-map.

That's what I meant. Sorry if I wasn't precise; you want to move your unit into the logistics LINE, as in, to the nearest green (or blue) province. Moving back to the capital will speed up a re-establishment of supply from the capital, but that's not what you are after if you need supplies *now*, not a month from now.

Also, vis-a-vis an airforce out of supply... Yes, most people who've played this game handle that by having a single plane on any airbase they plan to use, so that there is a supply present when they move their main stacks there (said plane is often a TRA, as that allows that base to be an air-supply station itself in the interim).





Also, there is a chance that the issue isn't actually in that area, it is just suffering from a side-effect of other issues.

As a perpetual NatCHI player, I have learned, often, why to VERY sparingly use Strategic Redeployment. Any units currently being Strat-deployed are NOT generating supply calls, but then when they arrive in their new position, if that position isn't already well supplied, they send out a HUGE request to the hub... which, even with both the capital and the surrounding provinces having infinite throughput, can result in every available province being used to route supplies to the newly-arrived units, and any supply that was *trying* to go elsewhere suddenly finds itself getting redirected.

Again, it's not a situation most players enjoy, we just kind of... figure out workarounds for ;p

 

[GarfunkeL]

For some reason HQ units, on their own, can often end up without supplies. If there's another brigade with it, then it will get supply normally.

I don't have an explanation why some garrison-duty units sometimes go without supply for several days but it happens. I've never had to move those units; they eventually get supplied again.

 

[Kovax]

As for airfields, I find it useful to station a fuel-using unit (MOT or AC) to an airfield that I intend to use later. That way, there are supplies and fuel waiting when the planes arrive. This is handy for garrison of a large area. Park a lone MOT at the airfield, then rebase (preferably with a Reserve order) a TAC there if/when you've got a partisan uprising in the area. You can then begin bombing the partisans immediately, and being low on ORG doesn't matter against partisans, since they've got virtually no AA capability. Once the plane arrives at the airfield (not before), you can then move the MOT toward the partisans, to accept their surrender and reclaim the province after the TAC has bombed them down to 0 ORG.

One TAC and a couple of MOT can cover all of France, or with a few more MOT, most of the Soviet Union west of Moscow.

I had one GAR division out of supply only 6 provinces from my capital, and that supply was not restored after over almost a year ("Why is my GAR division out of ORG?"), even though there was a supply corridor running through the adjacent province. I had no choice but to move the GAR unit to where it could draw supply. The system works great when it works at all, but doesn't always do so.

As for picking up supply in remote enemy provinces, it's possible that the province was cut off with some supplies still remaining, and they couldn't be routed back to the capital without a connection. Other than that, I don't know why there would be supplies in a remote cut-off enclave.

 

[GeneralGrievous]

As for airfields, I find it useful to station a fuel-using unit (MOT or AC) to an airfield that I intend to use later.

Thx for mentioning this problem. My CAS or INT were nearly dying because it was out of supply and I didnt realized it. So your point of having a FUEL-USING army unit is interesting. But I am a minimalist, so I cannot affort use a MOT for "air supply services". But I will consider this.

One TAC and a couple of MOT can cover all of France, or with a few more MOT, most of the Soviet Union west of Moscow.

Well, of course youre right, but a couple of MOT is imho a little bit overdone for France, isnt it? So my approach was to secure France with cheap CavDiv (2xCav,1RocketArt=same Movement). But the result was:

There was NO CHANCE to supply these 2x Cav, 1 Light Inf, 1 CombatHQ (HQ+2Inf). The AI was not able to establish a supply route. And this is disappointing to me.
Of course I will have some MOT in France as an operational Reserve, but only for supply reasons? This sounds a little bit...weird. But reagarding to the siviet union your proposal may works. Thx, I will consider this point (after I have reached these regions

I had one GAR division out of supply only 6 provinces from my capital, and that supply was not restored after over almost a year ("Why is my GAR division out of ORG?"), even though there was a supply corridor running through the adjacent province. I had no choice but to move the GAR unit to where it could draw supply. The system works great when it works at all, but doesn't always do so.

THIS!!!! Thx for describing the problem. I thought I was the only person with this problem. So then it seems as if this is not a problem of my -badly modded- version. But why is this a problem? As example: I want to garrison Kiew and have no possibilty to supply the GAR (and the CAS/INT). So I had to rebase/move ALL the units...I dont understand this system...the GAR went down to ZERO ORG, also the CAS/INT, down to 0 Org :-(

After all the supply system seems to be...well...challenging...

But thx for all your comments so far, I really appreaciate them and I am still trying to understand the supply system. I really look forward to your experiences and suggestions. (Btw. it is very strange to read that some of the operations of my "game" take place in the same area of the actual war, this is really sad)

 

[50shadesofgreen]

In your annotated map it may be the case that those units just needed to wait a few more days for supplies to reach them. The infantry div in Epinal is 17 nodes from Berlin, so supplies will take 17 days to trace their way from Berlin. I'm seeing fingers of green supply just a few days east making their way across the Maginot Line. There's also green supply arcing down from Belgium to the cav divs.

I also see you have just over 5000 supply in the pool. That's a low figure for me for Germany. Had you all but run out shortly before this screenshot?