Heretic or.....?

[majdavlk]

Some holy orders, like the Jormsvikings, actually can raid.

And I think by "everyone else" you might have meant "other troop types belonging to a religion, culture or government type that CAN raid".

No, troops cant really belong to a religion, culture or government, they belong to characters. I ment that if their lord allows raiding, then all of the other troops types can raid.

Do you know if for example teutons can raid? or is it specific to those holy orders like jomsviking? or is the ability of holy order to raid given by the culture/religion/governent of the hochmeister?

 

[User29]

What is a "temporal head" and why should you need it? I tested this with Catholic characters and papacy (Catholic religious head) and i was able to excommunicate people as i wanted for piety. All religions that have excommunication, their religious head of the correct religion can excommunicate anyone they are the religious head of if they are the same religion.

Temporal Head means You are the head of the religion, and if the "Pope" really likes someone you can't demand their excommunication, If you yourself are the head of religion you don't have to ask, you have 100% authority over who you excommunicate.

Also while it's been awhile since I played Yazidi I don't think you have to pay ANY Piety either, not usually a concern, but just another obstacle not in the way.

And let me pre-empt the argument that a vassal religious head always says yes, I know for a fact the religious heads are sometimes obtuse about certain characters I want excommunicated so I can arrest them, If you can excommunicate them yourself you're way better off

 

[majdavlk]

Did some tests and it seems like all holy order units can raid, what matters for that is just if the one who hired them allows it. i will edit my previous comment.

Temporal Head means You are the head of the religion

In that case all heads can be temporal, and kinda redundant to say that it needs to be temporal head to excomunciate yourself if you alredy need to be the religious head to excomunicate yourself.

Also while it's been awhile since I played Yazidi I don't think you have to pay ANY Piety either, not usually a concern, but just another obstacle not in the way.

Did a test right now and even they pay the piety cost.

 

[User29]

n that case all heads can be temporal, and kinda redundant to say that it needs to be temporal head to excomunciate yourself if you alredy need to be the religious head to excomunicate yourself.

No, only Muslim or Pagans can have Temporal religious heads, there are other benefits to keeping it for yourself such as calling crusades, the unique crown/scepter for pagans and more control over keeping moral authority very high since modifiers include religious heads piety and religious heads diplomacy.

Did a test right now and even they pay the piety cost.

I stand corrected on this, I wasn't sure but did indeed think I didn't pay any piety last I did it.

 

[majdavlk]

No, only Muslim or Pagans can have Temporal religious heads.

the player is able to hold any religious head title

 

[Metanetwork]

What is a "temporal head" and why should you need it? I tested this with Catholic characters and papacy (Catholic religious head) and i was able to excommunicate people as i wanted for piety. All religions that have excommunication, their religious head of the correct religion can excommunicate anyone they are the religious head of if they are the same religion.

A temporal head is a religious head who is not a theocracy, such as: feudal, tribal, merchant republic, and nomadic religious heads.

Also while it's been awhile since I played Yazidi I don't think you have to pay ANY Piety either, not usually a concern, but just another obstacle not in the way.

Requesting an excommunication costs 50 piety. Directly excommunicating a character without prior request costs 100 piety. A negligible difference.

the player is able to hold any religious head title

No, unmodded theocracies are unplayable.

Being a temporal (non-theocratic) religious head requires a muslim religion or a reformed pagan religion with Temporal leadership.

 

[User29]

the player is able to hold any religious head title

I'd like to see how easily you hold the Papacy

 

[majdavlk]

I'd like to see how easily you hold the Papacy

You need to make your heir a catholic theocrat, make him the preferatus for papacy and ask him to convert, and make "succession" happen on the same day after your son converts.
I made a youtube video that i could share the link in PM (sharing links publicly is forbiden i think)

 

[Karlington]

What is a "temporal head" and why should you need it? I tested this with Catholic characters and papacy (Catholic religious head) and i was able to excommunicate people as i wanted for piety. All religions that have excommunication, their religious head of the correct religion can excommunicate anyone they are the religious head of if they are the same religion.

I'm not sure if you are just messing with us here? "Temporal" is the exact word the game itself uses. It refers to secular religious heads, like those of pagan religions who picked "Temporal" (heh) for Leadership, or the Muslim Caliphs and Sheikhs.

Basically, those are the religious heads that Paradox intended for players to be able to play, and which can be attained in the normal course of the game and without exploits.

Of those religious heads the Yazidi Sheikh is the only one who can excommunicate.

And let me pre-empt the argument that a vassal religious head always says yes, I know for a fact the religious heads are sometimes obtuse about certain characters I want excommunicated so I can arrest them, If you can excommunicate them yourself you're way better off

As of 3.0 vassal religious heads no longer automatically accept all requests. You do get a bonus to their acceptance when you are their liege lord, though.

 

[jwalche]

since I get two chances to capture the enemy's courtiers. If there's a mix of raiders and non-raiders, raiding takes priority.

Too add some detail on why this matters a lot. If you capture the enemy's heir, a child or women in his home, you get instant 50% war score.

If you get to kill enemy ruler during a battle while having the heir in your dungeon, you get instant win.

If you make enemy duke's spouse your concubine, make her a king with equality, and kill her and her son, your enemy duke becomes your vassal king, instantly ending the war inconclusively.

And the additional children can be ransomed to drain his treasury.

 

[jwalche]

As of 3.0 vassal religious heads no longer automatically accept all requests. You do get a bonus to their acceptance when you are their liege lord, though.

That's why I had to execute my wife to get out of the marriage last time! Pope wouldn't let me divorce even though he had 100 opinion on me due to integer overflow.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

britain is still my favorite place to play even though all the duchies and counties suck

Essex and Mercia are pretty reasonable. Capital can be boosted to 7 over time using crown focus and they have 5 and 4 counties in them respectively. They're a step down from the best duchies out there but still pretty good compared to many kingdom locations.

By comparison Cairo and Kiev are powerful capitals but they are 2 province duchies.

England compares pretty favorably to a bunch of kingdoms. It's more "average" than "sucks".

 

[User29]

Essex and Mercia are pretty reasonable. Capital can be boosted to 7 over time using crown focus and they have 5 and 4 counties in them respectively. They're a step down from the best duchies out there but still pretty good compared to many kingdom locations.

By comparison Cairo and Kiev are powerful capitals but they are 2 province duchies.

England compares pretty favorably to a bunch of kingdoms. It's more "average" than "sucks".

I'd rather have small county duchies with lots of holdings than lots of counties with fewer holdings, want to stack the capital castle demesne bonus of +50%

But yeah, essex is okay. Mercia not so much to me, but certainly a huge duchy. I just wouldn't want it as my capital

 

[majdavlk]

I'm not sure if you are just messing with us here? "Temporal" is the exact word the game itself uses. It refers to secular religious heads, like those of pagan religions who picked "Temporal" (heh) for Leadership, or the Muslim Caliphs and Sheikhs.

Basically, those are the religious heads that Paradox intended for players to be able to play, and which can be attained in the normal course of the game and without exploits.

Not messing with you, the only thing about the word "temporal" i knew was that religious people IRL sometimes make distinction between temporal and something else but i don't understand that all that much.

Then i knew that in ck2 its the name of one of the leadership doctrines while reforming pagan religions. Which makes the initial leader the reformer instead of randomly generated character. And also gives a nice unbreakable artifact to the reformer.

I didn't knew that Muslim religious heads are considered temporal because that word didn't make much sense to me.

I agree that taking control of the Papacy as a player is an exploit and was almost definitely not intended. But with the pagan or other Christian heads i am not all that sure, as loosing their titles still generates what seem to be inheritable claims, which seems to be disabled for papacy.

I'd rather have small county duchies with lots of holdings than lots of counties with fewer holdings, want to stack the capital castle demesne bonus of +50%

But yeah, essex is okay. Mercia not so much to me, but certainly a huge duchy. I just wouldn't want it as my capital

I too prefer large counties over duchies, but even big duchies with small counties can be fixed somewhat if you have reapers due enabled and manage to fire the land clearance event adding additional holding slot multiple times.

 

[Metanetwork]

Not messing with you, the only thing about the word "temporal" i knew was that religious people IRL sometimes make distinction between temporal and something else but i don't understand that all that much.

The distinction is between temporal and spiritual leadership.

Secular lords exercising worldly power for a period of of time are temporal leaders. Clergymen exercising spiritual authority are spiritual leaders. The three possible outcomes of this distinction are (depending on which leadership one considers "superior"): separation of church and state, caesaropapism, or theocracy.

I didn't knew that Muslim religious heads are considered temporal because that word didn't make much sense to me.

It makes absolute sense to call the caliphates temporal. The term caliph means "successor" and implicitely refers to Muhammad's successor as lord of Arabia. But many muslims hold that Muhammad also had spiritual successors with a separate chain of transmission, such as shia Imams and/or sufi sheikhs (depending on who you ask).

While druzes don't view themselves as muslim, the temporal/spiritual distinction is the the core of their identity. To druzes, caliph al-Hakim was the last person to be caliph and imam. He split the titles, passing the imamate to Hamza ibn Ali ibn Ahmad, while his son inherited the Fatimid caliphate only. But to nizari shiites, al-Hakim was only caliph but not imam, since they viewed a distant cousin as the real imam at the time. But a sunni sufi would say that the caliph is an Abbasid, and that such-and-such sufi sheikh is spiritual leader of the local community.

To summarize, caliph was the temporal title, and the spiritual title was called something else.